Why is Sire so hard even for "AOTC" groups?

[kamuimac]

My theory is, it all comes down to when DPS have responsibilities, group wipes are more likely..

(Just measuring as EASY or HARD based on dps responsibilities. Dont read into which ones are harder or not).

Shriekwing - EASY
- No one person is important, tanks just need basic positioning. Sure single people can drop stuff in bad places but overall, one person cant wipe the raid. Everyones main job is to avoid the things. You can just copy everyone.
Huntsman - HARD
- Bit more complicated, and most groups fail at the shades. The Arrows are easy enough to avoid, not standing in the giant circle is easy, its when shades need to be CCed, a responsibility usually assigned to a dps, in my experience a healer has never messed it up, but if CC breaks its cauuse some dps did the wrong thing and wiped the group.
Hungering Destroyer - EASY
- Pretty easy. Everyone has the same job. Avoid the things, run out, run back in. you can just copy everyone else.
Inverva - HARD
- Getting a bit harder. Manging the containers is usually a dps job, when a healer is assigned to it, ive never seen it fail. Soaking is usually ok, but if a soak isnt done it very likely a dps was close by and didnt move. Moving in with the Anima - easy enough, but you cant copy anyone else, your job is your own, dps sometimes freak out and dont run it in, or dont overcome their roots. The Orbs, you cannot copy anyone, you have a specific task, many screw it up - focusing on dps.
Sun King - EASY
- DPS does what it does best. Kill things. Easy fight
Artificer - HARD
- DPS usually are the ones running seeds. Also the 3rd phase, you make a mistake you die, you cant just copy everyone
Council - EASY
- Overall, dps copies everyone else. The few times where you need to think for yourself (dance partner) is the time when most would screw it up.
Slude - HARD
- Actually an easy fight. But it requires the dps to work together, at least in movement. 90% of wipes are because someone didnt copy everyone else.
Generals - HARD
- Easy if you move. But movement requires you to do your own thing and not copy everyone. Moving with blades, you alone are responsible. Stacking on for crystal if your bleeding - cant see anyone doing it so you dont either. Soaking eruptions, you do it alone.
Sire - HARD
- P1 requires dps to soak in order. Overall an easy phase. This is 1 thing dps need to do.
- P2 requires dps to handle multiple things potentially all at once. Killing adds, while avoiding piles of sludge and swords. Multitasking makes it hard.
- P3 shouldnt be hard, but its made hard when dps dont work together. Stacking when needed, moving away when needed, etc.
- Overall Sire is an easy fight. Its made hard just because dps start to drop off.

Overall, it seems simply that fight where DPS have responsibilities randomly assigned to them is where the wipes happpen.

In fights where one person wont cause a wipe, most groups 1 shot.
In fights where 1 mistake at the wrong time will wipe, its usually a dps that causes it.

Is it that DPS players are bad?
Or simply that Tanks and Healers have to learn everything, while dps for the most part can get away with basic knowledge and wing it - and when presented with things they cant just wing, fail.

problem is always the same.

if mechanics can be handled by some people not picked by game fights are easy

if mechanics are completly random and suddenly "little timmy who performs a bit worse" dies / kills others its causing wipes.

blizzard just realised that unless they enforce mechanics on random people then encounters are "to easy " for raiders. so they started that and this tier its going to ridiculous lenghts

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You know what is game changing - taking 0 adds to Phase 3 due to HP nerfs on Sire

never seen problems with adds because they literaly melt down when done by group which has atm most likely 218-220 itlv on average from GV . especially that if needed help i could ignore boss and jump on range adds as DH. but never needed to do that.

i have seen insane amount of wipes due to one shots of mechanic overlaps.

[Loveliest]

If you overlap Crescendo with Massacre it's your own fault. The raid can control when Crescendo is going to happen.
So why should the game fix your own badness?

Only super disciplined groups would control this. Mythic-raiding level. Heroic-only guilds will never bother. Let alone pugs that are afraid they might get kicked for lower dps. Unless the people there are above heroic level skill-wise.
And since this thread is about Ahead of the Curve...

Either way, with the nerfs to Denathrius' health, I don't think there's a lot of issues now. Maybe.

[Frozenbro]

how this boss should work is that if massacre started then crescendo cannot start untill massacre ended. or if crescendo started then messacre cannot start.

its the same problems with overlaps of mechanics as on multiple bosses this tier.

Or you can have your dps actually play the game and kill the adds properly to not make this overlap happen if they are too pepega to deal with it, you cant just nerf an imaginary overlap that happens on the raid's own fault, a real overlap is what happens on Mythic Sire, an overlap that cant be avoided, not the made up overlap you mention on heroic.

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Only super disciplined groups would control this. Mythic-raiding level.

Mythic raiders just move out of crescendo and massacre xd you just press wasd, cba to control adds dps when its a non issue.

[arkanon]

problem is always the same.

if mechanics can be handled by some people not picked by game fights are easy

Bang - This Guy/Gal gets it. "RNG" with abilities is a pugs nightmare - being able to rely on 3-4 players who know the mechanic and are good at it makes many things trivial. Damned if they do, damned if they dont.

[Frozenbro]

Bang - This Guy/Gal gets it. "RNG" with abilities is a pugs nightmare - being able to rely on 3-4 players who know the mechanic and are good at it makes many things trivial. Damned if they do, damned if they dont.

Except what he mentions isnt rng, its an overlap caused by his own raid, rng timers and mechanics was what happened (and still happens tbh) on Mythic Stone Legion Generals, but Heroic Sire? its all timed, even Mythic Sire is all timed.

[Loveliest]

Is it that DPS players are bad?
Or simply that Tanks and Healers have to learn everything, while dps for the most part can get away with basic knowledge and wing it - and when presented with things they cant just wing, fail.

Both. Sort of.
In general - bad players play dps, not that dps are bad. There are amazing dpses out there who deal with mechanics and dish a lot of damage.
But the worst of the worst will usually be dps - people who cannot for their life do much - interrupt, dps while moving, avoid more than one mechanic, SEE what is going on (the number of people in my group who say they don't see lines at Denathrius in phase 1 is astonishing...). I general, they have very poor awareness.
In general, you won't stand for a tank that is super slow and doesn't understand what to do because it will frustrate everyone, while a bad dps you will just carry through, let die and hope for the best (as in hope he won't kill off the actual dpses who are carrying him). A bad tank can be carried only in rare circumstances - if the group is super awesome and content super overgeared and / or if the main tank can easily guilde the offtank (tell when to taunt, where to move, what to do).
A bad healer can also be carried by the other healers, though most dps mistakes are covered by healers in general anyway so your healers as a group need to be pretty good if the rest of the raid is bad.

[arkanon]

Except what he mentions isnt rng, its an overlap caused by his own raid, rng timers and mechanics was what happened (and still happens tbh) on Mythic Stone Legion Generals, but Heroic Sire? its all timed, even Mythic Sire is all timed.

You need to look at what i quoted. It was very specific what i quoted, and what i responded to.

What responded to was the difference between "someone of your choosing needs to go click 3 orbs in the correct order" VS "someone will be randomly chosen, and they are required to click on 3 orbs in order".

[Frozenbro]

You need to look at what i quoted. It was very specific what i quoted, and what i responded to.

What responded to was the difference between "someone of your choosing needs to go click 3 orbs in the correct order" VS "someone will be randomly chosen, and they are required to click on 3 orbs in order".

There should be some kind of balance tbh, you dont want RNG targeted mechanics being overused, but you dont want "Xanesh" type encounters on a 24/7 basis either, where theres literally 0 personal responsability.

[neescher]

Only super disciplined groups would control this. Mythic-raiding level. Heroic-only guilds will never bother. Let alone pugs that are afraid they might get kicked for lower dps. Unless the people there are above heroic level skill-wise.
And since this thread is about Ahead of the Curve...

Either way, with the nerfs to Denathrius' health, I don't think there's a lot of issues now. Maybe.

There's not a lot of discipline required. Melee kill both adds. Ranged only focus left add then help melee. Wait for hand/massacre. Kill right ranged add.

[intenz]

My theory is, it all comes down to when DPS have responsibilities, group wipes are more likely..

(Just measuring as EASY or HARD based on dps responsibilities. Dont read into which ones are harder or not).

Shriekwing - EASY
- No one person is important, tanks just need basic positioning. Sure single people can drop stuff in bad places but overall, one person cant wipe the raid. Everyones main job is to avoid the things. You can just copy everyone.
Huntsman - HARD
- Bit more complicated, and most groups fail at the shades. The Arrows are easy enough to avoid, not standing in the giant circle is easy, its when shades need to be CCed, a responsibility usually assigned to a dps, in my experience a healer has never messed it up, but if CC breaks its cauuse some dps did the wrong thing and wiped the group.
Hungering Destroyer - EASY
- Pretty easy. Everyone has the same job. Avoid the things, run out, run back in. you can just copy everyone else.
Inverva - HARD
- Getting a bit harder. Manging the containers is usually a dps job, when a healer is assigned to it, ive never seen it fail. Soaking is usually ok, but if a soak isnt done it very likely a dps was close by and didnt move. Moving in with the Anima - easy enough, but you cant copy anyone else, your job is your own, dps sometimes freak out and dont run it in, or dont overcome their roots. The Orbs, you cannot copy anyone, you have a specific task, many screw it up - focusing on dps.
Sun King - EASY
- DPS does what it does best. Kill things. Easy fight
Artificer - HARD
- DPS usually are the ones running seeds. Also the 3rd phase, you make a mistake you die, you cant just copy everyone
Council - EASY
- Overall, dps copies everyone else. The few times where you need to think for yourself (dance partner) is the time when most would screw it up.
Slude - HARD
- Actually an easy fight. But it requires the dps to work together, at least in movement. 90% of wipes are because someone didnt copy everyone else.
Generals - HARD
- Easy if you move. But movement requires you to do your own thing and not copy everyone. Moving with blades, you alone are responsible. Stacking on for crystal if your bleeding - cant see anyone doing it so you dont either. Soaking eruptions, you do it alone.
Sire - HARD
- P1 requires dps to soak in order. Overall an easy phase. This is 1 thing dps need to do.
- P2 requires dps to handle multiple things potentially all at once. Killing adds, while avoiding piles of sludge and swords. Multitasking makes it hard.
- P3 shouldnt be hard, but its made hard when dps dont work together. Stacking when needed, moving away when needed, etc.
- Overall Sire is an easy fight. Its made hard just because dps start to drop off.

Overall, it seems simply that fight where DPS have responsibilities randomly assigned to them is where the wipes happpen.

In fights where one person wont cause a wipe, most groups 1 shot.
In fights where 1 mistake at the wrong time will wipe, its usually a dps that causes it.

Is it that DPS players are bad?
Or simply that Tanks and Healers have to learn everything, while dps for the most part can get away with basic knowledge and wing it - and when presented with things they cant just wing, fail.

Complete and utter drivel. I've pugged HC nathria as a healer without really knowing how to play the spec, it's much easier than dps for most fights. You have some sort of chip on your shoulder about dps players, I won't guess at the kind of psychological problem you have, but the fact of the matter is that healers only have a hard time if a group is really bad and takes loads of avoidable damage. If a group is competent than healers have it easiest, they only need enough HPS to keep people alive there isn't the same performance scrutiny as there is on DPS.

As for tanks, they generally deal with completely different mechanics to the rest of the raid so its apples and oranges. They have their own problems to deal with on a fight but equally they get to stand still doing a basic rotation for 90% of the fight without worrying about many mechanics.

And I had to laugh at you putting huntsman as "hard" there's nothing to that fight.

[Squigglyo]

Complete and utter drivel. I've pugged HC nathria as a healer without really knowing how to play the spec, it's much easier than dps for most fights. You have some sort of chip on your shoulder about dps players, I won't guess at the kind of psychological problem you have, but the fact of the matter is that healers only have a hard time if a group is really bad and takes loads of avoidable damage. If a group is competent than healers have it easiest, they only need enough HPS to keep people alive there isn't the same performance scrutiny as there is on DPS.

As for tanks, they generally deal with completely different mechanics to the rest of the raid so its apples and oranges. They have their own problems to deal with on a fight but equally they get to stand still doing a basic rotation for 90% of the fight without worrying about many mechanics.

And I had to laugh at you putting huntsman as "hard" there's nothing to that fight.

Might help if you read more than just the bolded words bud. You litteraly skipped over everything else.

[neescher]

On most encounters there's no difference mechanics-wise between dps and healer. On Inerva healers can't get beams, other than that all the mechanics/movements are basically the same for healers and dps.

How "hard" the raid (on HC) is for healers, depends entirely on your ilvl and how well dps/tanks are playing and using their cooldowns. I've seen pugs that were unhealable in fights like council (low dps = high stacks each phase), generals (just a clusterfuck if people don't play mechanics correctly) or destroyer (stacking multiple orbs inside each other), and I've seen groups that require next to no healing.

So you both are kinda right

[Steelangel]

if mechanics are completly random and suddenly "little timmy who performs a bit worse" dies / kills others its causing wipes.

It's not just "little timmy who plays a bit worse" it's sometimes "little timmy who hasn't ever had to be part of that mechanic in the 12 previous pulls and has no experience with orbs and beams" or "Little timmy who is in a burst phase and whose mind was on maximizing DPS at the moment they were picked to drop the death pool on the side of the room".

In the dozens of pulls of H Stone Legion I have been picked exactly once for Grashaal's ground puddles. I dropped it in the wrong place because I had a moment of not paying attention. Stupid me, I know, but RNG is RNG and some folks get targeted a lot and learn what to do when targeted. When you're not targeted enough that muscle memory isn't there.

[FiveDkp]

problem is always the same.

if mechanics can be handled by some people not picked by game fights are easy

if mechanics are completly random and suddenly "little timmy who performs a bit worse" dies / kills others its causing wipes.

blizzard just realised that unless they enforce mechanics on random people then encounters are "to easy " for raiders. so they started that and this tier its going to ridiculous lenghts

- - - Updated - - -



never seen problems with adds because they literaly melt down when done by group which has atm most likely 218-220 itlv on average from GV . especially that if needed help i could ignore boss and jump on range adds as DH. but never needed to do that.

i have seen insane amount of wipes due to one shots of mechanic overlaps.

Then don't kill adds before Massacre or Hand? :S

The bit you don't seem to understand is that having all the adds dead going into P3 makes it a lot easier for a lot of groups to handle the first Hand + finesse (the first mechanic overlap in p3).

- - - Updated - - -

people have generaly no problem runing out of small puggles - what people do have problem with is runing out of small puddles when they are surrounded by huge red lines of instant deaths.

how this boss should work is that if massacre started then crescendo cannot start untill massacre ended. or if crescendo started then messacre cannot start.

its the same problems with overlaps of mechanics as on multiple bosses this tier.

and it could be solved by literaly making 2 lines of code if done by devs who think about what they are designing.

Jesus Christ......

You're showing your full non-experience of these bosses on display - if you're dying to P1-P2 mechanics - have fun in p3.

[neescher]

[...]

Now you're being elitist and toxic

/s

[Amaterasu65]

I join groups that one shot it. They are always Sire specific only and not part of a full clear. The leader is usually a mythic raider who checks logs, usually on a trash alt that gets boosted but I can get behind that because he only gets competent people.

Two of my friends bought their Sire kill a few weeks back at 200k, they told me it's 40k g now. When I had one of them join me in this week's Sire kill he thought we need to clear all stacks in P1, instead of the safe 3. He was still topping the heal though.

What I wanna say is WoW has become a game where the top and prestigious achievements and rewards are all buyable. Everyone can get Gladi (even AnnieFuchsia posted an obnoxious screenshot on her Gladi drake with a "We did it!" message) or Curve, and ofc CE. People need to react to that and not focus purely on r.io telling them they are 10/10 but start checking logs and number of kills. Why would I want a grey/green logger in my group? That person obviously doesn't know how their class works. 10/10 Heroic my buttocks.

[neescher]

I join groups that one shot it.

So 99% of all groups in the group finder then?

[erifwodahs]

and it could be solved by literaly making 2 lines of code if done by devs who think about what they are designing.

It is solved by people knowing how to position themselves. One massacre line comes through each person. If everyone is stacked up like sheep and not loosely spread in range - well, is that blizzard or people not knowing how mechanics work.

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I mean... being Ahead of the Curve should indicate that your skill. If you have trouble dealing with HC mechanics, maybe you aren't really ahead? Not to say that it can't be over tuned, it's just that if people who don't raid mythic can kill it, it's probably ok.

[FiveDkp]

I join groups that one shot it. They are always Sire specific only and not part of a full clear. The leader is usually a mythic raider who checks logs, usually on a trash alt that gets boosted but I can get behind that because he only gets competent people.

Two of my friends bought their Sire kill a few weeks back at 200k, they told me it's 40k g now. When I had one of them join me in this week's Sire kill he thought we need to clear all stacks in P1, instead of the safe 3. He was still topping the heal though.

What I wanna say is WoW has become a game where the top and prestigious achievements and rewards are all buyable. Everyone can get Gladi (even AnnieFuchsia posted an obnoxious screenshot on her Gladi drake with a "We did it!" message) or Curve, and ofc CE. People need to react to that and not focus purely on r.io telling them they are 10/10 but start checking logs and number of kills. Why would I want a grey/green logger in my group? That person obviously doesn't know how their class works. 10/10 Heroic my buttocks.

Ummm, why did you mention Annie? She is quite a good pvper/pver......

[Ishayu]

We're on Stone Legion Generals Mythic, and Sire Denathrius Heroic can still throw us for a loop. On alts, to be fair, but it can.

It's such an obnoxious boss it's unreal. The reason why it's so difficult is that depending on how much DPS your group can do you need to change up the entire strategy or stop DPS'ing for vast periods of time (and that needs to be well coordinated if you're going to do that)

Last week, for instance, we killed the boss by popping bloodlust during phase 2 and pushing it before the 2nd set of adds spawn. Some time before that we were using bloodlust in phase 3 and pushing after the 2nd set of adds.

In phase 1 we now go down after 4 slaps, but usually we'd go down after 5. But that means we need to reassign who stands in the cone for each of them.

In order to get the adds dying and their bloody healing debuff and and the last phase all lining up nicely, we need to assign people to the side adds, or not.

Last wednesday we had multiple wipes because we were trying to kill both adds, when our damage was just shy of being able to do that. Instead we should kill one and drag the boss on top of the other when it comes over in phase 3. Other guilds can kill both. Some can't kill any but can get one so close it doesn't matter, and on and on the stupidity goes.

It's just an obnoxious fight.