Carries in Arena are a Problem.

[Varaben]

One solution that the top end players wouldn't like is that at some point you just can't queue into lower end players. As in, if you hit 2.5k in 2s this season, you never get other teams with MMRs of less than 2200 or something (maybe it would decay over time, like if I don't play at 2.5k for 2 weeks that floor goes down a bit - I'm allowed to get worse over time). Yeah that means you can't coach/boost, but maybe that just needs to go away. I don't know if this would actually work, but it is weird seeing people with 2.4k weapons at 1800 in 3s.

There has to be a way to make this not a thing; but what sucks is now if I joined the game after being gone a while and my friends are 2500 I can't play with them? They can't help me even if I got to say 1800 or 1900 on my own because now I'm queing into 2300 teams and aren't ready for that yet. I'm curious what other solutions might work here though, because if Blizz wants people to play arena, they have to fix this. I don't know why it's so much worse in Shadowlands, but it is. I literally ran into people with 40k HP on my fresh 60 Mage alt (23k hp) at 900 MMR. How is that ok? Maybe they had PVE gear I don't know, but that gear level in pvp is 18-2100 and you're queing <1k MMR?

[Recovery]

This is just flat out incorrect though. There are stats that show the majority of the playerbase, we're talking something like 90%, are below 1800 this season. I'll try and link this later in an edit when I remember where I found it. EDIT: Luduslabs.org/sotl

What you're saying doesn't even make sense though. If everyone is better, the rating doesn't change. If inflation was there as much as you're saying, (and the previous poster I quoted was saying 1400 too lol), then it would be easier to get 2k not harder. There would be a greater % of the playerbase that hits that rating. That literally isn't the case though.

So, I just now checked this.

As I CBA looking at that website.. Does it account for games played? As i mentioned in my post, im talking about players that actually take part in pvp. Like as in... main pvp. IM not talking about the average rating of players who play 100 games in a season. Im talking about people that actually consistently Q arena.... 1000 games+.

Also, the thing about the inflation.. After BC, arena started using MMR, whereas before it used ELO. In BC the top teams started getting hour+ long Qs around 2100-2300 depending on the BG. This is why there was no such thing as 3k rating in BC.

I guess what im trying to say is... that for the AVERAGE player who actually MAIN pvp, 2k is alot easier to get now than it was in BC. In BC 2k was almost glad on some BGs. lol. You have to be out of your mind to think otherwise.

[Kaver]

They just need to fix the gearing system where PVE players are getting boosted for gear and this issue will fix itself.

[Lathspell]

Why not put an extra level in MMR that matches by average ilvl. So 2 players with 1,2k rating and 200ilvl would fight similar rated and geared teams. If you had a booster with 230 ilvl and one 200 ilvl at 1,2k rating it would match up with 215 average teams. Sure boosters could drop ilvl (use honor gear etc.) but it would make them more beatable by appropriately geared/rated people. If I could decide I would just put back pvp scaling, that made playing even on a new alt tolerable in arena when you weren't globaled instantly.

[Cracked]

So, I just now checked this.

As I CBA looking at that website.. Does it account for games played? As i mentioned in my post, im talking about players that actually take part in pvp. Like as in... main pvp. IM not talking about the average rating of players who play 100 games in a season. Im talking about people that actually consistently Q arena.... 1000 games+.

Also, the thing about the inflation.. After BC, arena started using MMR, whereas before it used ELO. In BC the top teams started getting hour+ long Qs around 2100-2300 depending on the BG. This is why there was no such thing as 3k rating in BC.

I guess what im trying to say is... that for the AVERAGE player who actually MAIN pvp, 2k is alot easier to get now than it was in BC. In BC 2k was almost glad on some BGs. lol. You have to be out of your mind to think otherwise.

To clarify, elo experiences rating inflation over time too. The seasons just weren't that long for it to matter a huge deal.

[Enclave]

So, I just now checked this.

As I CBA looking at that website.. Does it account for games played? As i mentioned in my post, im talking about players that actually take part in pvp. Like as in... main pvp. IM not talking about the average rating of players who play 100 games in a season. Im talking about people that actually consistently Q arena.... 1000 games+.

Also, the thing about the inflation.. After BC, arena started using MMR, whereas before it used ELO. In BC the top teams started getting hour+ long Qs around 2100-2300 depending on the BG. This is why there was no such thing as 3k rating in BC.

I guess what im trying to say is... that for the AVERAGE player who actually MAIN pvp, 2k is alot easier to get now than it was in BC. In BC 2k was almost glad on some BGs. lol. You have to be out of your mind to think otherwise.

MMR = ELO lol...

MMR is just your match making rating, wow still uses ELO, just their own version of it

[Recovery]

MMR = ELO lol...

MMR is just your match making rating, wow still uses ELO, just their own version of it

First a little background / history. Im season 1 glad, season 2 glad, season 3 rank 1, and season 4 glad.

ITs better to clarify a difference since ELO was much different in BC when arena first started using it. ELO is much more sutied to rank and individual rather than a team of multiple people.

In TBC ELO only used a team rating (connected to that current team charter) and thats how you were matched. You started at 1500 (as a team) rating and either gained or lost from there. Most people lost. It got to the point where the top 1% of players could barely get Qs and if they did get Qs, the teams they were matched against were far below their ELO. This meant either very few points gained or a tremendous amount of points lost. This is why mmr / elo never inflated in tbc. The top teams were kept in check by losing big points to lower ranked teams.

To counter this, we would just remake our teams to get fresh team ELO. This caused another problem where people of way higher skill were just dominating the 1500-1800 brackets which also caused the deficit of mmr inflation. There was no personal rating. No personal mmr. Nothing personal whatsoever. There was 1 number - Team rating, which also acted as ELO and was directly connected to the individual team charter which could be deleted, you could leave it, or new people could join it.

If you guys didnt play the game and dont know how it worked, why comment and pretend that you did / do?

- - - Updated - - -

To clarify, elo experiences rating inflation over time too. The seasons just weren't that long for it to matter a huge deal.

read above.

[Kalach]

Blizzard needs to fix their damn MMR system.

That's exactly what I put in my Subscription cancelation notes... The only way to make a corporation listen is to hit their bottom line!

[csguba]

So, I just now checked this.

As I CBA looking at that website.. Does it account for games played? As i mentioned in my post, im talking about players that actually take part in pvp. Like as in... main pvp. IM not talking about the average rating of players who play 100 games in a season. Im talking about people that actually consistently Q arena.... 1000 games+.

Also, the thing about the inflation.. After BC, arena started using MMR, whereas before it used ELO. In BC the top teams started getting hour+ long Qs around 2100-2300 depending on the BG. This is why there was no such thing as 3k rating in BC.

I guess what im trying to say is... that for the AVERAGE player who actually MAIN pvp, 2k is alot easier to get now than it was in BC. In BC 2k was almost glad on some BGs. lol. You have to be out of your mind to think otherwise.

There's literally no point debating if you're not even going to take the 30 seconds to look at the website/source i linked that flat out shows you're wrong. You're just spouting nonsense with nothing to back up what you're saying. You're correct there has been inflation throughout the course of the game, and that 3k rating was obtained later. However this isn't at the start of expansions and comes at the end. As the site also shows the average rating even this season has regressed too throughout the months.

Again, source: Luduslabs.org/sotl

[Dug]

Should just do gear templates in rated PvP. You can still get good PvP gear but it doesn't matter unless you're doing casual BG or open world PvP and is slightly on par with PvE gear but worse itemization. Or just get rid of the stats all together and rated is just for chasing cosmetics which it basically is at this point.

[Cracked]

First a little background / history. Im season 1 glad, season 2 glad, season 3 rank 1, and season 4 glad.

ITs better to clarify a difference since ELO was much different in BC when arena first started using it. ELO is much more sutied to rank and individual rather than a team of multiple people.

In TBC ELO only used a team rating (connected to that current team charter) and thats how you were matched. You started at 1500 (as a team) rating and either gained or lost from there. Most people lost. It got to the point where the top 1% of players could barely get Qs and if they did get Qs, the teams they were matched against were far below their ELO. This meant either very few points gained or a tremendous amount of points lost. This is why mmr / elo never inflated in tbc. The top teams were kept in check by losing big points to lower ranked teams.

To counter this, we would just remake our teams to get fresh team ELO. This caused another problem where people of way higher skill were just dominating the 1500-1800 brackets which also caused the deficit of mmr inflation. There was no personal rating. No personal mmr. Nothing personal whatsoever. There was 1 number - Team rating, which also acted as ELO and was directly connected to the individual team charter which could be deleted, you could leave it, or new people could join it.

If you guys didnt play the game and dont know how it worked, why comment and pretend that you did / do?

- - - Updated - - -



read above.

Precisely because of people coming in and losing the top elo gets inflated. Check out elo in chess today and 20 years ago. Remaking teams of course has the opposite effect unless you purposefully lose it before disbanding.

[Recovery]

Precisely because of people coming in and losing the top elo gets inflated. Check out elo in chess today and 20 years ago. Remaking teams of course has the opposite effect unless you purposefully lose it before disbanding.

wot? Whatever you tried to say... I didnt follow at all. Try again?

- - - Updated - - -

There's literally no point debating if you're not even going to take the 30 seconds to look at the website/source i linked that flat out shows you're wrong. You're just spouting nonsense with nothing to back up what you're saying. You're correct there has been inflation throughout the course of the game, and that 3k rating was obtained later. However this isn't at the start of expansions and comes at the end. As the site also shows the average rating even this season has regressed too throughout the months.

Again, source: Luduslabs.org/sotl

" Of these, 11 898 (18%) have played at least 50 2v2 games, whereas 8 342 (13%) have played at least 35 3v3 games. The leaderboard data is as defined by Blizzard and contains the top 5000 players in each bracket and region. The combined leaderboard data therefore contains the top 10 000 players across US and EU servers."

So are you just going to ignore the fact that this data was compiled using players who have played as little as 50 games in 2v2 and 35 games in 3v3?

You cant call the average arena player someone who is 1400 with less than 500 games played. How do I make you understand this?

Its like saying the average raider only down 3 bosses in the normal raid and has only attempted the raid 5 times.

Ive played a guitar 5 times in my life. Does that make me an average guitarist?

I was never talking about the average EXTREMLY causal player. As I've states several times, i am speaking about the average player that actually PLAYS pvp.

50-100 games in a 4 month time span is not actually playing the bracket homie.

Glad and Rank 1 players in wow literally have thousands of games played by the end of the season. Most have over a thousand at this point.

[Cracked]

wot? Whatever you tried to say... I didnt follow at all. Try again?

You seem to have difficulty understanding English then, despite living in the US.

[Recovery]

You seem to have difficulty understanding English then, despite living in the US.

What you said just didn't make sense because there was no context behind it.

"Check out elo in chess today and 20 years ago. Remaking teams of course has the opposite effect unless you purposefully lose it before disbanding." - What are you replying to? What is that reply in reference to?

Irrelevant, but also, the US isnt a solely english speaking country. Not sure why you would assume someone that lives in the US mains english. lol

- - - Updated - - -

You seem to have difficulty understanding English then, despite living in the US.

Put it this way. Elo is best to measure a single unit...not a team. When wow used an elo system in TBC, it was faulty because you would only get points based on your wins and losses, rather than getting extra points to try to put you where you SHOULD be. Also, only the team gained or lost any rating. The player itself had no rating.

Wows mmr systems inflates the value to put you at a rating where you SHOULD be playing at. So in the ELO system, when you created a new team or joined a new team, even if you were 2300 rating, you would be playing at the rating of the team which could be 1400. In the mmr system, if youre 2300 rating, and join a 1400 team it will average your personal mmr and CR with the rest of the team's CR and MMR. Its literally 2 different systems mate.

[furanos]

we couldn't reach 2.1 in 2s ,.. i play OP Vent-Warrior (like every Addon not a FOTM reroller)

Every Time we are over 2050 we are getting overrun by PPL with 226&233 Weap
Mirror Matches with better gear OUT-DPS'd by 20-30% more Dmg
we played >20H in the range 1.9 - 2.1k and couldn't reach 2.1

Ok i'm also a bad player and never made Glad, but 2.1 is possible....

How would it be if theres a I-LVL scaling
0-1400 ~ scaling ilvl 200
1400-1600 ~ 207
1600-1800 ~ 213
1800-2100 ~ 220
2100-2400 ~ 226

Like the possible buyable gear if you reach 2100 you can Upgrade the Gear to 226
but if your fighting in the rating 1700 the the Gear is scaled to 213

So then the Gear Upgrades are only "usefull" in PVE Content and BG's.

[Gratz]

After reading every page, I am left wondering why the Mods still allow the toxic "love it or leave it" posts that people are still making in this thread and others.

There is actually a post in here where someone states that players should be punished for not starting pvp at the start of a season. You can actually change out words with political language and posters like that sound like they are talking about something else.

The general logic of posts like that are firm in the stance of "we don't need people playing this game." It goes against the business model. The backwards logic is so familiar.

Arena has the same problems every season.


"players need to chase gear, it is the main reason to even mmo." Meanwhile the people who say that refuse to pve and despise any grindy aspect of the game that isn't the very small world of arena.

My goal is to never actually go for Gladiator or rank1 but I want to have the highest IL possible in the game.- This is what you are saying correct?

You are no different than someone who brags about turning in 10,000 linen cloth they spent farming for hours. You are trapped in that safe place.

Arena should not be IL + skill.

It should just be skill. This isn't real life.

[Itisamuh]

If they would just remove all gear factors from PvP like any other intelligent PvP game designer does, it would make very little difference whether people decided to smurf or carry or not. There really is nothing that can be done to stop those anyway, sometimes they are simply playing with worse skilled friends, hard to discourage something like that being possible. But the main problem is absolutely gear being a terrible aspect to have in any PvP situation in any game.

[Zyky]

My rating in 2's is currently 1630 and just came out of a match with a disc/ret where I ran out of mana and the carried Ret could just stun, wings, reckoning, divine toll, templar's verdict me since the priest was able to keep him alive. Even an undergeared ret can kill you in a stun with his huge burst. Turns out.. while I was playing at 1630 rating, that the disc priest was 2410 in 3s with full duelist gear. Even in 2s his rating was 1800. Why was I playing against him while I was still at 1630? Blizzard needs to fix their damn MMR system.

2s MMR and 3s MMR are different, they also average between the two players. I'm a multiclass Gladiator over the last 6 seasons. 2s are where I go to fuck around with my friends who aren't as skilled in PvP. Do they pay me? No. Do I carry them? To an extent. But in your world you're saying that I shouldn't be able to play with my friends because I'm skilled and they aren't. Fuck that noise.

[nvaelz]

Let me explain how all this makes sense.

Blizzard sells tokens. People sell boosts. People buy tokens. People buy boosts. This is true in pve and pvp and is the reason why Blizzard doesn't want their core players to actually enjoy the game. I have not stepped fot in a m+ this expansion because it is simply so toxic. I have not entered the raid(except for raidfinder) because it's also toxic and EXTREMELY demanding on people, it's just too negative for me to enjoy.

But nvaelz its bcuz u suuuuck... No its because I hate gold boosting and it makes me sick to be an elitist exclusionist. I got 2.2k in 2s the first week of the season and I didnt even play on voice, I played kyrian meme sp and I got boosted by a ret? so what, all u do is play on a certain level with another person on a certain level, didn't need voice, didn't need to care, but it's sooooo toxic that you can't carry on your own, you cant queue to a dungeon without showing your rio, what's the fun in it?

I'll keep smashing noobs into unsubscription in random bgs, I'm 96% winratio because it's just how it is, and I'll keep working as Blizzards grimreaper slapping low ilvl sadfaces out of the game, that's what they(Blizzard) want anyways, because if people stop subscribing and then resubscribe and buy another xpac or some 6 month bonus pack, we all know how much blizzard loves money above all, there's a reason Asmongold doesn't play wow atm and there's a reason why most pvpers think the game is garbage, and it takes literally 0 brain to fix it but it doesn't get fixed so, FIGURE OUT why.


Here's the solution, put power in individual players hands, make the grind worth it, and delete the fking elitist mountain where all the tryhard goldboosting comnerds gather to (make money) by allowing casuals to grind GOOD gear, and make pve actually fun and not a sad timeattack to not be disappointed.

[Couchpotato2013]

2s MMR and 3s MMR are different, they also average between the two players. I'm a multiclass Gladiator over the last 6 seasons. 2s are where I go to fuck around with my friends who aren't as skilled in PvP. Do they pay me? No. Do I carry them? To an extent. But in your world you're saying that I shouldn't be able to play with my friends because I'm skilled and they aren't. Fuck that noise.

What’s stopping you from playing on an equivalently geared character as your friends if you are that good?