Why was Arthas wrong?

[huth]

All evil motivations. Because all of those were made-up justifications to cover up the intentionally evil acts.

And that's just where your mistakes start. No, they are genuine beliefs of these people that their acts are necessary and thus not evil. Very few people are intentionally evil, and most of those are so reluctantly.

If you examine the most evil historical people you invariably find a crapton of self-justification and rationalisation why they had to do what they did and how it was for the good of all. The most evil people in existence are those fully convinced that what they're doing is right to the point that they no longer check.

How? The city was so big that many, if not most of those who didn't turn would end up killed by the undead before Arthas could save them.

Most is better than all. You're constantly engaging in the false dilemma that the only options here are "save everybody" or "kill everybody", rather than the more reasonable "save as many as you can".

The grain got there days before it wouldn’t only be fresh bread.

Actually, if it only got there a few days before, it'd likely not even have seen a mill yet, especially during harvest time. Grain is typically stored for use later, when fresh produce isn't as available, not consumed immediately, which also necessitates that you use older stores before starting on the fresh deliveries.
For that matter, it's rarely eaten whole. Inventoring grain for a whole city would take a while, as would milling it and turning it into baked and other goods.

It's actually rather unrealistic that anybody partook in it any earlier than the morning Arthas arrived if it only arrived two days earlier.

[Rendark]

So going for a revenge-trip instead of saving your lands, picking up a cursed blade you have no idea what it'll do to you against your own better judgement. Attacking your own troops and being a fucking idiot.

That's like. OH BUT HE KILLED A MONSTER THAT LED HIM INTO A TRAP, SO HE DID THE RIGHT THING

No, he was an idiot, vendictive and got what was coming.

That's not what people are talking about. It's was it right to cull strat.

[Nathreim]

The grain got there days before it wouldn’t only be fresh bread.

Actually in the Book and The Culling of Stratholme dungeon its clear that the tainted grain had only been made into bread that morning. We even have NPC's commenting that the grain finally just arrived after being delayed.

If it had been consumed for days the people would have already been turning it didn't take long.

[Ielenia]

It would be implemented IMMEDIATELY.

Oh, really? "Implemented immediately"? You mean that in the time it takes for someone to blink, all the workers and materials have arrived to the area, all the workers finished construction of the quarantine area, and all civilians evacuated to the quarantine area. All of that... "immediately".

You do know those things take time, right? You know the Warcraft world is not some micro-transaction game in which Arthas could just spend extra premium currency to have the whole thing set up and build in a split-second, right?

I'm not saying they need to build a fucking hospital.

Even just building basic fencing to keep people apart from each other and safe from those that turn into undead would take too long.

They're traveling soldiers so they likely have some supplies in tow.

I fail to recall seeing or reading about any wagon carrying materials with them. They're traveling soldiers, not traveling craftsman. At best, they travel with the minimum necessary to make camp.

Use tent poles or standards to denote areas where people should gather and set up a perimeter. You have multiple groups performing different tasks, but acting in unison. I'd tell Jaina to remain with the group outside and to signal if the situation was becoming untenable and they needed more support.

So simple tent poles to set up a perimeter, meaning all the population would be in an open area, meaning those that turn would have free range to kill a few of the other civilians, or escape in the confusion.

All versions of the cutscene show infected people displaying symptoms of illness. Antonida's journal also supports the fact that it was a quickly progressing disease that had visually identifiable symptoms. "Fatigue, nausea, fever, to minor hallucinations" were seen in infected non-human creatures, and humans had a more pronounced effect that included necrosis and death. So while one might not be able to identify a newly infected person, someone who was nearing the end of the disease could possibly be identified. Rise of the Lich King notes that both Arthas and Jaina noticed "victims of this Plague became limned with a sickly, green glow".

And those happened shortly before turning. Remember that Arthas saw the effects of the grain. They look fine until the curse starts turning them.

It was here that Prince Arthas turned his back on the noble paladin Uther Lightbringer, slaughtering countless residents believed to be infected with the horrific plague of undeath. Ever since, cursed Stratholme has been marred by death, betrayal, and hopelessness.

It was only BELIEVED that the entire (or even most of) the populace was infected.

Except we know they were, and so did Arthas. We actually saw those people turning into zombies en masse, and by 'we' I don't mean us, as players. Our characters also witnessed that during the Caverns of Time dungeon.

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One thing the book sort of retcons is the speed at which the plague takes hold. It was noted as three days in some sources, but the book turns it into minutes, maybe an hour at most. Arthas notices the smell of freshly baked bread both at Hearthglen and Stratholme immediately before people begin to turn. That makes it even less believable that everyone (or even a sizeable portion) in the city baked and consumed bread within an hour of Arthas arriving. Everyone across the city was just munching on bread over the course of the hours that it was taking Arthas to burn their buildings? It's far more reasonable to believe that most of the people he was killing by the end of the purge were not infected and had been spending the prior couple hours trying to hide rather than snacking.

Except that is not what happened, was it? We saw people turning into undead in droves shortly after Arthas' arrival to Stratholme.

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Arthas didn't give them a quick, merciful death. He cut them apart with swords and bashed them in with hammers. "Survivors" of the attack classify his efforts as brutal.

Of course they would. Because they didn't want to die.

And despite the "no other way" argument, there were those who attempted to evacuate the city. The orphans were safely evacuated, and Eris Havenfire attempted to evacuate but was killed by the Scourge.

And how do we know that none of those evacuated were infected?

Shaw notes that Arthas' choice was a mistake and that there were alternative methods that could've been employed to spare some people.

Because hindsight is not 20/20, right? Shaw had the luxury of time and information that wasn't available at the time, too.

And killing the people did no good, because they were just brought back into undeath anyway; given how death knights wielded such magics against Dalaran in the second war, there's no reason Arthas wouldn't have known that necromancy isn't limited in effect to the living.

Arthas saw no other way to handle the situation, and he was all too willing to see his butchering done. That's not exactly the depiction of mercy that you're claiming. While his motivation was to try to save his kingdom, his actions suggest he cared very little for the actual people of Stratholme.

You're welcome to your opinion, however wrong it is. He did care for the people of Stratholme. That was the whole point of giving them a quick death before they turned.

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And that's just where your mistakes start. No, they are genuine beliefs of these people that their acts are necessary and thus not evil. Very few people are intentionally evil, and most of those are so reluctantly.

There is no mistake. The crusades were done with the intention to expand the influence of the christian church and to acquire more wealth. The whole "holy war" thing was just a pretense. Same thing with the witch hunts: they were done to consolidate the power of the church over the masses, by giving them an enemy, a boogeyman (or "boogeywoman" in this case) to fear and fight against.

The problem is that all that (holy wars, witch hunts) are just lies to cover up the true intention behind those actions. Here, with Arthas, there is no lie. It's an actual desperate measure to an actual desperate situation.

Most is better than all. You're constantly engaging in the false dilemma that the only options here are "save everybody" or "kill everybody", rather than the more reasonable "save as many as you can".

Except there was no way to save people. There was no way to identify those who were infected and those who weren't unless the infected was almost at the point of turning.

It's actually rather unrealistic that anybody partook in it any earlier than the morning Arthas arrived if it only arrived two days earlier.

Except that is exactly what happened, wasn't it? Because people started turning into undead in droves shortly after Arthas arrived.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Actually in the Book its clear that the tainted grain had only been made into bread that morning. If it had been consumed for days the people would have already been turning it didn't take long.

The book never says when the grain first started to be cooked just that they smelt it baking when they got there.

[Ardenaso]

Play Wc3 and you'll see why Arthas was wrong. Not that hard to understand.

He is in the right, purging Stratholme was the best choice. The only wrong was that he didn't assess the situation properly

[Florena]

There wasn't time. The situation was assessed as much as it could be by simply realizing the grain was distributed and that it was too late to save the town. There were no other options and taking the time to deliberate on them would mean people turning and the plague spreading through the town all the more.

There. Was. No. Time.

[Adamas102]

Except we know they were, and so did Arthas. We actually saw those people turning into zombies en masse, and by 'we' I don't mean us, as players. Our characters also witnessed that during the Caverns of Time dungeon.

Except that is not what happened, was it? We saw people turning into undead in droves shortly after Arthas' arrival to Stratholme.

No. Not at all. After reading the book, it's very clear that the idea that the whole city was infected is nothing but a lie Arthas told himself. Watching people turn was only described in his experience at Hearthglen. At Stratholme the first people he killed were living people, a mother and young boy. After the initial murders, people started fighting back, but those were still living people as well. There were pockets of undead here and there, but the book makes it pretty clear that the majority of the population were cut down as people. There was no "droves" of undead or descriptions of people turning en masse. We can assume that at least some were seen turning, but not all, or even most.

Pain clenched Arthas’s heart at the first one he struck down—a youth, barely out of puberty

...and himself lit the torches that burned down the buildings full of screaming people locked inside

It was a relief when some of the citizens of Stratholme began to fight back.

How long it took to slaughter every living—and dead—person in the city, Arthas would never be able to tell.

It isn't until later, when Mal'Ganis first begins to taunt Arthas that he is attacked by "a throng of undead, three deep" (not a lot for a city of 25,000). Hearing Mal'Ganis' voice made Arthas feel vindicated. Vindicated that he hadn't spent all that time killing innocent, living people for no reason. It's assumed that at least some people were witnessed turning, but it's never said outright. Perhaps Mal'Ganis was able to essentially turn or plant a few pockets here to make sure Arthas continued his war crime.

...the sick, sweet scent of poisoned bread, hanging in the air even though the bakery itself was a burning building.

Also of note is that even after hours of slaughter, with the entire city on fire, Arthas could still smell that scent of the poisoned bread on the air. No one else, either at the gates of Stratholme or inside mention anything about the smell of bread. The way that reads to me, given how unlikely that would be that the smell was still noticeable after so much time, is that it may have all been in his mind. He remembered the smell from back in Hearthglen, and maybe he did catch the scent when he arrived outside Stratholme. After all, that was the triggering event that led him to think the whole city must be purged. He didn't see grain crates, he didn't see anyone turning, he didn't see anyone sick. He smelled bread, and that was it.

And then even when that smell should realistically have dissipated, his mind still told him it was there because that was the thing that led to the slaughter. Maybe it was his mind playing tricks on him as a coping mechanism, or maybe it was even Mal'Ganis playing on the prince's paranoia.

Anyway, those are quotes (in order) from the novel that describes the whole endeavor. I've also noted several in game sources in other posts. All you've done is continued to parrot the idea that we KNEW the whole city was infected, though you have zero evidence to back that up. The book that details the relevant exchanges between the characters involved AND shows us the inner thoughts of the central character do not in any shape or form suggest that Arthas was right in what he did. It does the opposite, showing that he made a rash decision with almost no information or evidence. He made a plan to kill as many living people as he could and he succeeded, though neither he nor the audience could truly say that many, much less most, were infected.

[Tarba]

So going for a revenge-trip instead of saving your lands, picking up a cursed blade you have no idea what it'll do to you against your own better judgement. Attacking your own troops and being a fucking idiot.

That's like. OH BUT HE KILLED A MONSTER THAT LED HIM INTO A TRAP, SO HE DID THE RIGHT THING

No, he was an idiot, vendictive and got what was coming.

Attacking the source of the corruption that ravaged your land. Thrusting a friend he met by pure luck to find a powerfull artifact that could help him in his quest. Willingly giving up his life to save his people.

No one, absolutely no one could have guessed that the powerfull sword he heard about by Muradin he randomly met in northrend was on purpose put there to corrupt him by the one mastermind behind the attacks on his lands.

No one could have guessed "the evil on northrend launched a campain against lordaeron with the purpose of bringing the young prince of lordaeron in northrend so he could be mind corrupted."

It's easy to say afterward he was an idiot because he failed. Simply because he felt into a trap that made absolutely no sense at all.

His last sane words were for his people. He was not an idiot. Just a prince ready to do everything to save his people.
An idiot would be Medhiv. If he thought at any moment that he was usefull in any way to prevent the coming of the legion.
An idiot would be Terenas to not caring about the urgent warnings of the kirin tor.
A complete asshole would be Uther for leaving Stratholme behind to get back his titles and sabotage Arthas campain behind his back.

[Aresk]

And how do we know that none of those evacuated were infected?

We don't. In fact, if we accept your arguments here, it's very likely some of them were. And you know what? Lordaeron survived that throughout Arthas' campaign in Northrend, standing strong until his return and the assassination of Terenas. It continued to limp along after a full scourge army attack and the invasion of the Burning Legion, only truly being stamped out once Sylvanas rose to power.

You're welcome to your opinion, however wrong it is. He did care for the people of Stratholme. That was the whole point of giving them a quick death before they turned.

It's interesting, because Kalec does note that Arthas acted out of misguided compassion, and yet his actions suggest he zealously butchered the people. The interlude between the Culling and the trip to Northrend shows that he impaled their corpses on spikes, and he never attempted to use the light to resurrect any of them, despite having the ability to do so at the time. Call me crazy, but that doesn't seem very respectful to me. Maybe he's just a sociopath.

I'm curious: aside from those who did the culling, can you find one character in lore that condoned that strategy as a way of dealing with the infected? You've already said that we can't compare it to our world, so let's just look at it through the lens of theirs. I can point you to members of the Scarlet Crusade who thought Arthas was wrong, and they're easily the most zealous group against the undead.

I'm not saying the culling wasn't a justifiable solution to the problem, but it wasn't the only one, and it definitely wasn't a "good" action (from an alignment perspective) as it is depicted now. Interestingly, within the actual WC3 mission, you can simply wait for people to turn before killing them, so the event as it was originally presented is far less objectionable than the way it has canonically been presented after (and suggests that he could have killed the people after they turned instead of before, though obviously mechanics =/= lore).

[Lorgar Aurelian]

and he never attempted to use the light to resurrect any of them, despite having the ability to do so at the time.

I’m pretty sure arthas never had the power to resurrect with the light unless I missed something.

Resurrection requires a ton of power and even Uther doesn’t do it and he’s way stronger in the light then Arthas ever was.

[Ielenia]

Also of note is that even after hours of slaughter, with the entire city on fire, Arthas could still smell that scent of the poisoned bread on the air. No one else, either at the gates of Stratholme or inside mention anything about the smell of bread. The way that reads to me, given how unlikely that would be that the smell was still noticeable after so much time, is that it may have all been in his mind.

Maybe. But, at the same time, the book was being written mostly from Arthas' perspective, was it not? So it's natural that we would have a focus on Arthas' thoughts and feelings, and not the others. The book not mentioning other people commenting on the scent of bread is not proof that only Arthas could smell it therefore it was only in his head.

After all, that was the triggering event that led him to think the whole city must be purged. He didn't see grain crates, he didn't see anyone turning, he didn't see anyone sick. He smelled bread, and that was it.

The Culling of Stratholme quests show us that Arthas' forces noticed the cursed grain just outside Stratholme. After all, the whole quest was about us undoing the Infinite Dragonflight's magic that was hiding the cursed grain, so Arthas' troops could notice it:
"If they can convince him that none of the grain here carries the plague, then he'll never have to make the fateful decision to cull Stratholme."
"You have done well, friend. The plagued grain was exposed to Arthas' troops."

Anyway, those are quotes (in order) from the novel that describes the whole endeavor. I've also noted several in game sources in other posts. All you've done is continued to parrot the idea that we KNEW the whole city was infected, though you have zero evidence to back that up.

When you ignore what people say, it's easy to claim no evidence has been shown, I suppose.

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We don't. In fact, if we accept your arguments here, it's very likely some of them were. And you know what? Lordaeron survived that throughout Arthas' campaign in Northrend, standing strong until his return and the assassination of Terenas. It continued to limp along after a full scourge army attack and the invasion of the Burning Legion, only truly being stamped out once Sylvanas rose to power.

Except none of that proves that Arthas' incursion through Stratholme was a failure or success, does it? None of that tells of the situation in Stratholme.

and he never attempted to use the light to resurrect any of them, despite having the ability to do so at the time. Call me crazy, but that doesn't seem very respectful to me. Maybe he's just a sociopath.

As far as I understand things, actual resurrection is not really a thing in Warcraft. At least, not to the point of being something so common. Otherwise, it raises the question: why wasn't Cairne resurrected? Why wasn't Varian resurrected? Or Vol'jin? Or Admiral Taylor? Or Dranosh? Or Saurfang? Or every single character that died in the history of Warcraft?

I'm curious: aside from those who did the culling, can you find one character in lore that condoned that strategy as a way of dealing with the infected? You've already said that we can't compare it to our world, so let's just look at it through the lens of theirs. I can point you to members of the Scarlet Crusade who thought Arthas was wrong, and they're easily the most zealous group against the undead.

You just mentioned Kalecgos, did you not?

I'm not saying the culling wasn't a justifiable solution to the problem, but it wasn't the only one,

It was the only possible course of action with the resources, time and manpower at hand. The only other course would be inaction.

[Ardenaso]

I guess you didnt read "Rise of the lich king" where arthas and jaina literally go to a town and run into people then literally watch them transform into zombies after eating the bread, then jaina sits down to eat some cheese and arthas yells at her "fucking cut that shit, we need to save people we dont got time for you to eat shit"

that's a terrible retcon, it destroys the complexity of Arthas' actions there

[FelPlague]

that's a terrible retcon, it destroys the complexity of Arthas' actions there

how? They know people are turning into undead.
its not like arthas is the only one who knows about it.-

[Ardenaso]

how? They know people are turning into undead.
its not like arthas is the only one who knows about it.-

yes Uther and Jaina still never saw a zombie in WC3, just skeletons and perhaps ghouls (who are like mutation 2.0 compared to Zombie) and let alone a villager turning into a zombie

[FelPlague]

yes Uther and Jaina still never saw a zombie in WC3, just skeletons and perhaps ghouls (who are like mutation 2.0 compared to Zombie) and let alone a villager turning into a zombie

... "They only saw undead, why would they think undead exist!"

[Amaterasu65]

Arthas wasn't wrong since there was no cure, it was lethal 100% and the victims would be scourgified 100%. What he did wrong was the way he handled it, Jaina and Uther should have agreed with him and figure out a more humane way to purge the city. If Jaina had a mass sleep spell that she could cast in the city, maybe it would have been better.

[FelPlague]

Arthas wasn't wrong since there was no cure, it was lethal 100% and the victims would be scourgified 100%. What he did wrong was the way he handled it, Jaina and Uther should have agreed with him and figure out a more humane way to purge the city. If Jaina had a mass sleep spell that she could cast in the city, maybe it would have been better.

Sadly there is no sleep spell for humanoids, only animals, castable by druids : /

[Ardenaso]

... "They only saw undead, why would they think undead exist!"

surely they'd think of Necromancers simply raising the dead and/or stitching abominations but not food that turns people undead

[FelPlague]

surely they'd think of Necromancers simply raising the dead and/or stitching abominations but not food that turns people undead

So raising people from the dead nah thats totally normal, but people being turned undead by poisoned food!? gasp thats impossible!!!!!!!!