will TBC bring us back the non toxic community and non min/max culture?

[msdos]

Why on Earth do you stay in a guild which goals do not mesh at all with your ideas of fun?
You should find a guild that shares your idea of fun in-game. And if you can't find such a guild then you should make one yourself and invite people who have the same idea of fun in-game as you do.

If those people that are driven by "blind impulsive competitivness" can make a guild that has their values and have people join that guild, then you should be able to make a guild, or find one, that is driven by your values that you obviously share with a lot of people. Or am I missing something?

I just posted my answer to the OP question, I'm not really giving my personal opinion. This whole narrative you came up with in your post is just a narrative that has nothing to do with anything.

[crusadernero]

i've been playing classic again the last couple of weeks. Decided to reach 60 on my pala and I specced ret. Yes its a bad dps spec, but im sick of healing atm, enjoy the pala class/Lore/fantasy and im focused on questing alot.

BUT - I've actually done alot of dungeons with people. no one cares im a retscrub, I always get invited. People probably realise it doesnt matter having a optimal comp, cause most content aint super hard.

So there are people out there who aint min/max andys. But thinking it wont be there would be wrong, cause it happend for a big part of classic sadly. even though most, if not all content was piss easy no matter.

[Naraga]

No OP TBC will have the same "toxic min max culture" in PvE that you talk about, and it will introduce a new "toxic min max culture" in the PvP scene where people won't even acknowledge whispers from people 200 rating lower than them let alone entertain the idea of playing with them.

[Easyclassictopkeklel]

Yes they existed but wasn't THAT common like now in retail.

yes it fkin was. Idk if you're ignoring it or if you just experienced bc in a bubble.
I remember people leaving shadowlabs because of 1 fked up pull, I remember people going at each others throats over items, I saw guilds break up because of the drama, I remember countless a**holes, gankers, scammers, beefs between guilds over nonsense...And don't let me start about arena. I would say that TBC was even more toxic than retail on my server tbc.
So no, it won't bring back a non-toxic community...because a community like that never existed.
BUT you can join a non-toxic guild and play as much of the content as possible only with those people.

[Keny]

No

/10char

[Ashleyxoxo]

Have you been to Tichondrius? It's always been toxic. Star player Neilyo would flame his video-viewers to mute the volume if they didn't like the music. Everyone would blame Kalgan for everything wrong.

[NineSpine]

And what stops those that don't want to be the best they can be, those you call "I want to be good at the game", to find players like themselves and group up with them and ignore those "evil min-maxers?"

I mean those that find it fun to be the best they can be and who like to play with like-minded people have no problem with grouping with players like themselves.

The design pushes people toward pugging, which necessarily results in these groups interacting. Also, the lack of coherent communities in game gives license to min makers to abuse everyone else.

The question you should ask is “why don’t min maxers form guilds and leave everyone else alone”. You are trying to put it on everyone else to somehow avoid these people when these people choose not to isolate themselves.

[bash the fash]

To bring back the non toxic culture would be to restore the in-game community. That means ABSOLUTELY no sharding. That means small servers. But they have completely destroyed that and have no intention of fixing it. So it means anonymous people all over the place being jerks to each other.

Lol. There'll always be an excuse, and never people just grappling with reality; these "toxic" communities existed back then, they'll exist now. They've always existed in every online game I've played, going back to Unreal Tournament.

[Schmeebs]

Only way to bring back a non-toxic community is to to time travel 20 years into the past and play on low pop servers.

[T-34]

I just posted my answer to the OP question, I'm not really giving my personal opinion. This whole narrative you came up with in your post is just a narrative that has nothing to do with anything.

So I take it that you will stay in your guild that you don't enjoy instead of doing something about it?

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The design pushes people toward pugging, which necessarily results in these groups interacting. Also, the lack of coherent communities in game gives license to min makers to abuse everyone else.

The question you should ask is “why don’t min maxers form guilds and leave everyone else alone”. You are trying to put it on everyone else to somehow avoid these people when these people choose not to isolate themselves.

So lets go with your arguments: You say the game pushes people in to pugging. Let us just accept that as a fact for our discussion.

Then my question is still relevant:
Why don't those people that don't want to be the best they can be find others like themselves - that is make a pug - and do the content?
Again: Those that want to be the best they can be have no problems whatsoever to find like-minded people to pug with.

I am very curious about the mentality of the people you have made yourself a spokesperson for. Could you explain to me why they can't find like-minded people to play with?

Is it because people like them lack will-power? So they need people with will and leadership abilities to lead them?
Is it because people like them lack self-worth? That they need the best to validate them?
Is it because people like them feel entitled to play with people more skilled/experienced than themselves and therefore won't accept to play with their fellow gamer of the same skill-level and experience?

Or is it something else? I am very curious.
I must have asked the question: "Why don't you find like-minded people to play with, just like the min-maxers do?" several dozen times here and I have never ever gotten an answer. I hope that I can get one from you.

[Nite92]

The world buff meta was commom back in vanilla if you raided. Nothing has changed.

That is just not true. Not even Nihilum did that. They sometimes coordinated their own buffs.

Edit: [Source - Preach Interview of and Nihilum officer]

[bash the fash]

So I take it that you will stay in your guild that you don't enjoy instead of doing something about it?

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So lets go with your arguments: You say the game pushes people in to pugging. Let us just accept that as a fact for our discussion.

Then my question is still relevant:
Why don't those people that don't want to be the best they can be find others like themselves - that is make a pug - and do the content?
Again: Those that want to be the best they can be have no problems whatsoever to find like-minded people to pug with.

I am very curious about the mentality of the people you have made yourself a spokesperson for. Could you explain to me why they can't find like-minded people to play with?

Is it because people like them lack will-power? So they need people with will and leadership abilities to lead them?
Is it because people like them lack self-worth? That they need the best to validate them?
Is it because people like them feel entitled to play with people more skilled/experienced than themselves and therefore won't accept to play with their fellow gamer of the same skill-level and experience?

Or is it something else? I am very curious.
I must have asked the question: "Why don't you find like-minded people to play with, just like the min-maxers do?" several dozen times here and I have never ever gotten an answer. I hope that I can get one from you.

My experience in classic tells me that what these people do is find raids that will carry them so they can play their smite priests and moonkins or whatever and irritate everyone until either they quit, wander off to find another raid to loiter in, or the raid falls apart.

That is just not true. Not even Nihilum did that. They sometimes coordinated their own buffs.

Edit: [Source - Preach Interview of and Nihilum officer]

Who cares what Nihilum did? Getting guildies/friends to turn in the quest for Warchief's before a raid or even sometimes an UBRS/strat/scholo run before they were nerfed was pretty commonplace on my server, and we were incompetent. Even Ony heads were held on to once we started killing her and figured out how good the buffs were for Vael attempts.

[last1214]

Toxic and min/max culture do not necessarily go hand in hand. Some of the most toxic players i know are also horrible at the game, and dont know the first thing about getting more out of thier character.

[NineSpine]

So I take it that you will stay in your guild that you don't enjoy instead of doing something about it?

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So lets go with your arguments: You say the game pushes people in to pugging. Let us just accept that as a fact for our discussion.

Then my question is still relevant:
Why don't those people that don't want to be the best they can be find others like themselves - that is make a pug - and do the content?
Again: Those that want to be the best they can be have no problems whatsoever to find like-minded people to pug with.

I am very curious about the mentality of the people you have made yourself a spokesperson for. Could you explain to me why they can't find like-minded people to play with?

Is it because people like them lack will-power? So they need people with will and leadership abilities to lead them?
Is it because people like them lack self-worth? That they need the best to validate them?
Is it because people like them feel entitled to play with people more skilled/experienced than themselves and therefore won't accept to play with their fellow gamer of the same skill-level and experience?

Or is it something else? I am very curious.
I must have asked the question: "Why don't you find like-minded people to play with, just like the min-maxers do?" several dozen times here and I have never ever gotten an answer. I hope that I can get one from you.

A lot of min maxers don’t go play with like minded people. They go abuse everyone else who isn’t a min maxer in the public space of the game. If the min maxers kept to themselves we wouldn’t be having this conversation.

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This issue exists because min maxers walk into the public sphere of the game and feel entitled to bully and control everyone else, and the irony here is that your condescending, dismissive, insult-laden, presumptive, and bullying attitude when addressing this issue proves my point.

[Prag]

Or is it something else? I am very curious.
I must have asked the question: "Why don't you find like-minded people to play with, just like the min-maxers do?" several dozen times here and I have never ever gotten an answer. I hope that I can get one from you.

For the same reason you can’t seem to confine yourself to like-minded discussion groups, and instead come here to regurgitate the same tired rhetoric that you acknowledge gets no response.

Why min-max if you don’t have someone to shit on?

This is true in-game as well.

[crusadernero]

So I take it that you will stay in your guild that you don't enjoy instead of doing something about it?

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So lets go with your arguments: You say the game pushes people in to pugging. Let us just accept that as a fact for our discussion.

Then my question is still relevant:
Why don't those people that don't want to be the best they can be find others like themselves - that is make a pug - and do the content?
Again: Those that want to be the best they can be have no problems whatsoever to find like-minded people to pug with.

I am very curious about the mentality of the people you have made yourself a spokesperson for. Could you explain to me why they can't find like-minded people to play with?

Is it because people like them lack will-power? So they need people with will and leadership abilities to lead them?
Is it because people like them lack self-worth? That they need the best to validate them?
Is it because people like them feel entitled to play with people more skilled/experienced than themselves and therefore won't accept to play with their fellow gamer of the same skill-level and experience?

Or is it something else? I am very curious.
I must have asked the question: "Why don't you find like-minded people to play with, just like the min-maxers do?" several dozen times here and I have never ever gotten an answer. I hope that I can get one from you.

OP: Proof right here Yes, it will be back and yes its alive too! Thread over!

[T-34]

A lot of min maxers don’t go play with like minded people. They go abuse everyone else who isn’t a min maxer in the public space of the game. If the min maxers kept to themselves we wouldn’t be having this conversation.

This issue exists because min maxers walk into the public sphere of the game and feel entitled to bully and control everyone else, and the irony here is that your condescending, dismissive, insult-laden, presumptive, and bullying attitude when addressing this issue proves my point.

I have never met a player who finds it fun to be the best he can be waste his time with talking with players that don't want to be the best they can be regarding their performance.
Players that want to be the best they can be very well know that the players that don't want to be the best they can be, what I call the wilfully bad, don't want to become better and therefore it would be a waste of time and effort to try to "teach" them anything.

For some reason you correlate ambition, competence and respect for other people's time and effort with evil behaviour. It is very curious.

But you still didn't answer my question:

What stops players that don't want to be the best they can be and who don't like players that min/max to find players like themselves and play with them?
Why can't players that don't want to be the best they can be just ignore those those evil, evil min-maxers?

Again: The evil min-maxers have no problems finding like-minded people to play with. The evil min-maxers have no problems with ignoring players that don't have the same definition of fun as they do.

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For the same reason you can’t seem to confine yourself to like-minded discussion groups, and instead come here to regurgitate the same tired rhetoric that you acknowledge gets no response.

Why min-max if you don’t have someone to shit on?

This is true in-game as well.

You are mistaken. Min-maxing is done out of competitive spirit. A competitive person wants to become as good as the best.
Measuring yourself against those that aren't as skilled/experienced as you won't make you better and therefore it would be a complete waste of time.

But even if your claim would be true that min-maxers exist so they can shit on someone still doesn't give an answer to my question:
Why don't these people not find people like themselves to play with and shun the evil min-maxers? If you are in a guild or a pug that has no min-maxers then all should be fine and dandy, right?

[NineSpine]

I have never met a player who finds it fun to be the best he can be waste his time with talking with players that don't want to be the best they can be regarding their performance.
Players that want to be the best they can be very well know that the players that don't want to be the best they can be, what I call the wilfully bad, don't want to become better and therefore it would be a waste of time and effort to try to "teach" them anything.

For some reason you correlate ambition, competence and respect for other people's time and effort with evil behaviour. It is very curious.

But you still didn't answer my question:

What stops players that don't want to be the best they can be and who don't like players that min/max to find players like themselves and play with them?
Why can't players that don't want to be the best they can be just ignore those those evil, evil min-maxers?

Again: The evil min-maxers have no problems finding like-minded people to play with. The evil min-maxers have no problems with ignoring players that don't have the same definition of fun as they do.

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You are mistaken. Min-maxing is done out of competitive spirit. A competitive person wants to become as good as the best.
Measuring yourself against those that aren't as skilled/experienced as you won't make you better and therefore it would be a complete waste of time.

But even if your claim that min-maxers exist so they can shit on someone still doesn't give an answer to my question:
Why don't these people not find people like themselves to play with and shun the evil min-maxers? If you are in a guild or a pug that has no min-maxers then all should be fine and dandy, right?

You seem to be, as usual, willfully missing the point despite how many times it gets repeated to you:

If min maxers did just play with other min maxers, we wouldn’t be having this conversation.

You are like the guy that agrees with a pick up basketball game at the gym, and then takes it too seriously, yells at everyone else, tells his team how to play, and thinks he is in the fucking NBA.

That’s the type of player we are talking about. If someone like that goes to a league and plays with other people like him, the conversation about his bad behavior at the pick up game *doesn't happen*.

[Baconeggcheese]

How did this thread get to 12 pages, its no of course not.

[potis]

A lot of min maxers don’t go play with like minded people. They go abuse everyone else who isn’t a min maxer in the public space of the game. If the min maxers kept to themselves we wouldn’t be having this conversation.

This does not happen, and you are confusing category of players, you are describing "Shit players that think they are min/maxing while remaining shit" than actually good players.

You are being toxic towards people without actually knowing to tell quality of players apart.

The mix of players is Blizzards fault by forcing the better players into daily/weekly non-skippable grinds (Badges in WOTLK, Legendary Questline in WoD/MoP) that forces players of different mentalities and skill levels to play together.

Actually decent players dont waste their time in game doing irrelevant stuff ,and they for sure "DONT PLAY WITH OTHERS JUST TO BULLY THEM", like what the hell? Dont mix the cesspool of wannabee's because of your personal gripe with anyone thats better than you.