will TBC bring us back the non toxic community and non min/max culture?

[chiddie]

There are plenty of groups in LFG where the key-holder writes "weekly", "chill", "will finish even if we don't time" etc. which is code for that the maker of the pug doesn't have a competitive attitude to his key.

Much rarer, but you do see them, you someone make a raid pug where the leader writes "chill" or "Learning group" which also is an indicator for the leaders interest in people who have a similar mind-set.

I am most certainly not trying to pain anyone as an "intruder". I am 100% in support of that people should play the game like they find fun. But at the same time I simply can't understand why people would want to play with people that have a completely different definition of what fun is.

And I believe that it is my own responsibility to find like-minded people to play with and my own responsibility to ensure that I have a nice in-game experience. I have always done that myself and when I very rarely get to play with people I don't like then I kick them if it is my group and leave the group if it isn't mine. Thereby I take my own in-game experience in my own hands: It is my fault that I invited "bad apples" and it is my fault that I joined the wrong group.

I want to understand why a part of the player-base doesn't take matters in their own hands and ensure that they have the in-game experience that they want.

Dude, really?

It’s simple: the rewards are being put in the part that require dedication, coordination and learning.

If WQ would reward 226 ilvl gear too noone of these people would care about trying to be included in content they don’t like.

[Sanitee]

I cannot understand the logic of some people here. I gave classic a shot but the hilarious world buff requirements in any guild worth joining and just how mind numbingly boring it was to me, turned me off it.... so i am not a part of the min maxer crowd ...BUT...i have never met one of them who seeks to joim groups of much more casual players, knowing they are far more casual and slower in doing content.

What i see a LOT of however, is far more casual players trying to squeeze into more hardcore groups because it's an easier way to complete content and get carried.

Why don't you just NOT play with min maxers if they annoy you so? They're not the ones seeking out casuals to play with, it's the other way around, and i cannot understand why, seeing all the complaints about the difference in playing style

[leggomydairy]

The problem is basically "why do things slow when you can do them fast". People know how to play the classes to good potential. Best talents are known by everyone with 2 fingers and Google. So are BiS lists / enchants / sockets. There is nothing that makes you go "oh wow, I didn't know that, that will make my character so much better".

So yeah, people expect you to be functioning player, not dead weight.

Yeah everything with this attitude is what people hate about Classic

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The classic community is as toxic as it gets. So no.

Literally
/10chars

[erifwodahs]

Don’t forget the demand for everyone to min max in content where it is absolutely unnecessary.

I have never seen anyone who demanded everyone to do that.
We just don't group with people who are not interested in performance. There are crossovers unfortunately that's were all the crap comes from, but as long as both groups can play separately, we are ok.

[Doffen]

LOL???

I experienced more toxicity in TBC than in any other expansion after that. Nowadays I rarely see anything. At all.

I for one, look forward to the banter I still have some good memories of some real drama and shit.

People that think TBC wasn't full of toxic People, likely either don't remember TBC or never played it.

Yep. They must have been really isolated if this was the case.

will TBC bring us back the non toxic community

Hysterical!

[Sanitee]

Yeah everything with this attitude is what people hate about Classic

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Literally
/10chars

Why would you WANT to play with those people then?? There's so many guilds and groups that don't have these requirements, why not play with them? (Maybe because bosses don't die when everyone plays at your level of performance and people can't carry you? It's just as toxic to expect those who put in a lot more effort to have to work even harder to carry you because you can't be arsed to do your part but you still demand to get brought for loot. That's called entitlement and is just as toxic)

[Ragedaug]

Don’t forget the demand for everyone to min max in content where it is absolutely unnecessary.

It's not always about the needful. I would suspect most choices you make in your hobby time aren't about necessity, but about what makes it most enjoyable to you. In the game that often translates to finding like minded people to play with. Min-maxers find more enjoyment playing the game with other min-maxers, which is why they find out who min-maxes, then they group with them.

There are tons of casuals who play every form of World of Warcraft, and they aren't even difficult to find. Most of them just won't carry you. You may find you are the most competent person in that group, meaning you will be carrying them. But that should be OK with you so long as you aren't just looking for a carry, but are looking to have fun playing the game with people who share your mindset not putting pure focus on min-max.

I suspect most folks complaining about min-maxers are just looking for a carry however, so at least that explains why they have so much animosity towards people who don't care to play with them.

[Kumorii]

When did I hear this before? Oh right, before Classic was released.

[T-34]

The idea that someone who demands ideal spec and full enchants and shot to do a M+2 s just trying to be his best and is therefore justified and screaming like a deranged monkey at everyone is absurd.

Hmmm, I've never said that it is justified to scream at someone as a deranged monkey, neither if you try your best and neither if don't try your best. Curious.

But I would still like your explanation on why those "that are good enough", "just goof around", "want play a casual pick-up game" have such great pains to find players like themselves, organize themselves and play the game so they have fun?

You seem to correlate the desire to be good, be competitive and trying your best with being mean.
Are you also correlating the absence of ambition, the absence of competitiveness and not trying your best with being passive?

[NineSpine]

I have never seen anyone who demanded everyone to do that.
We just don't group with people who are not interested in performance. There are crossovers unfortunately that's were all the crap comes from, but as long as both groups can play separately, we are ok.

The problem is that they don't play separately. They are part of the same pugging community, and we have substantial numbers of people that go into relatively low end content and demand everyone else min max.

I have been kicked from groups *before the first pull* for having the "wrong spec". I have received profanity-laden rant-lectures mid-dungeon, when nothing was wrong and we were progressing fine and I wasn't even at the bottom of the DPS, from someone (often who is performing below me) demanding I do something differently because "that's not the meta and you shouldn't pug if you want to just play bullshit specs".

[T-34]

Dude, really?

It’s simple: the rewards are being put in the part that require dedication, coordination and learning.

If WQ would reward 226 ilvl gear too noone of these people would care about trying to be included in content they don’t like.

Well, nobody stops them from organizing themselves and try to get such rewards.
Or do they seriously expect that more competitive and dedicated people should drag them along and not have fun? Or with your words "include them"?.

[NineSpine]

Hmmm, I've never said that it is justified to scream at someone as a deranged monkey, neither if you try your best and neither if don't try your best. Curious.

You keep acting like there is some binary here, like there are just two kinds of players. That's bullshit. The most extreme min maxers will switch class if the meta changes. Even the average min maxer won't do that. People can be exceptional players and *prefer* a less optimized spec because they enjoy it more.

]But I would still like your explanation on why those "that are good enough", "just goof around", "want play a casual pick-up game" have such great pains to find players like themselves, organize themselves and play the game so they have fun?

Because when they pug they end up grouped with frothing at the mouth lunatics who think you can't complete a +2 unless you are in full 213 and using the meta spec. I've had people rage-quit groups in the middle of a perfectly fine run because they noticed someone isn't playing the "right spec" and refused to continue unless that person switched, and what the actual performance looks like never matters to them.

You seem to correlate the desire to be good, be competitive and trying your best with being mean.
Are you also correlating the absence of ambition, the absence of competitiveness and not trying your best with being passive?

You still don't get it, and as usual I suspect it is on purpose.

If your desire to be "competitive" means you can't handle running a +2 with an affliction warlock because it is off meta and even if they outperform you it is UNACCEPTABLE, something is *wrong* with you.

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Well, nobody stops them from organizing themselves and try to get such rewards.
Or do they seriously expect that more competitive and dedicated people should drag them along and not have fun? Or with your words "include them"?.

You keep setting up this fake scenario where some lazy player that doesn't want to do anything right somehow sneaks into a high end competitive group. That's not the real world. What happens is the "high end competitive" group does not advertise themselves as such and then starts berating people in laughably low end content for not having everything set up exactly how icy veins says to.

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It's not always about the needful. I would suspect most choices you make in your hobby time aren't about necessity, but about what makes it most enjoyable to you. In the game that often translates to finding like minded people to play with. Min-maxers find more enjoyment playing the game with other min-maxers, which is why they find out who min-maxes, then they group with them.

]

But. They. Don't. They waltz into low end pug content and lose their shit if everyone doesn't do what they say.

There are tons of casuals who play every form of World of Warcraft, and they aren't even difficult to find. Most of them just won't carry you. You may find you are the most competent person in that group, meaning you will be carrying them. But that should be OK with you so long as you aren't just looking for a carry, but are looking to have fun playing the game with people who share your mindset not putting pure focus on min-max.

I suspect most folks complaining about min-maxers are just looking for a carry however, so at least that explains why they have so much animosity towards people who don't care to play with them.

You can suspect whatever deranged shit you need to that helps you deny reeality.

The animosity is toward people that think you can't do a +3 without +15 gear and the exact right perfect meta spec that icy veins says to, and those people join pugs or start pugs and treat other people like shit.

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Why would you WANT to play with those people then?? There's so many guilds and groups that don't have these requirements, why not play with them? (Maybe because bosses don't die when everyone plays at your level of performance and people can't carry you? It's just as toxic to expect those who put in a lot more effort to have to work even harder to carry you because you can't be arsed to do your part but you still demand to get brought for loot. That's called entitlement and is just as toxic)

Because there is no magic wand you can wave and say "Presto Magico" and you know who joining your pug is going to be some meta obsessed lunatic who thinks they are doing you a favor by joining your group.

[Sanitee]

[QUOTE=NineSpine;53100791]

What you're describing has nothing to do with min maxing and everything to do with just being a plain old asshole. Those things don't go hand in hand any more often than they do with the horribads who try to join your pug Knowing full well they can't contribute but hope to get carried.

Min maxers aren't assholes and casuals aren't assholes.... assholes are assholes and they are found literally everywhere on the ultra casual - super hardcore spectrum

[bash the fash]

People that think TBC wasn't full of toxic People, likely either don't remember TBC or never played it.

This is basically all that needs to be said. It could've been said about classic, too. The server I played vanilla on was full of douchers, elitists who weren't very good, and cliques of friends who screwed people out of loot regularly and never faced consequences for it because, surprise, they were part of the core raid/pvp team of the biggest guilds on the server.

This goes back to playing in FPS clans in the late 90s. People have always been "toxic" in online games. It's time to stop pretending otherwise. Is it possible to have positive experiences? Absolutely, I've met a lot of great people through WoW over the years. But you remember the good and forget the bad, as is always the case with nostalgia.

[NineSpine]

[QUOTE=Sanitee;53100820]

What you're describing has nothing to do with min maxing and everything to do with just being a plain old asshole. Those things don't go hand in hand any more often than they do with the horribads who to join your pug Knowing full well they can't contribute but hope to get carried.

Min maxers aren't assholes and casuals aren't assholes.... assholes are assholes and they are found literally everywhere on the ultra casual - super hardcore spectrum

The culture of wow is dominated by the min max, meta-slave attitude. It is not dominated by the casual attitude. Casual players don't join groups and demand everyone switch to off-meta specs. They don't lecture people on how they need to play worse. This is a ridiculous comparison.

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This is basically all that needs to be said. It could've been said about classic, too. The server I played vanilla on was full of douchers, elitists who weren't very good, and cliques of friends who screwed people out of loot regularly and never faced consequences for it because, surprise, they were part of the core raid/pvp team of the biggest guilds on the server.

This goes back to playing in FPS clans in the late 90s. People have always been "toxic" in online games. It's time to stop pretending otherwise. Is it possible to have positive experiences? Absolutely, I've met a lot of great people through WoW over the years. But you remember the good and forget the bad, as is always the case with nostalgia.

Classic's communities are so clearly and obviously better than retail that this is a joke.

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Well, nobody stops them from organizing themselves and try to get such rewards.
Or do they seriously expect that more competitive and dedicated people should drag them along and not have fun? Or with your words "include them"?.

The actual competitive players, the ones doing mythic competitions, aren't pugging +2s dude. They are irrelevant.

The problem here is that you are the guy playing pick up games at the YMCA and you think you are Lebron James.

[Sanitee]

[QUOTE=NineSpine;53100830]

The culture of wow is dominated by the min max, meta-slave attitude. It is not dominated by the casual attitude. Casual players don't join groups and demand everyone switch to off-meta specs. They don't lecture people on how they need to play worse. This is a ridiculous comparison.

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Classic's communities are so clearly and obviously better than retail that this is a joke.

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The actual competitive players, the ones doing mythic competitions, aren't pugging +2s dude. They are irrelevant.

The problem here is that you are the guy playing pick up games at the YMCA and you think you are Lebron James.

Min maxers aren't joining +2 (except for valor farming), you're confusing them with try-hards. The players from Echo and Limit are min maxers, the ragers from that 3/10 mythic guild who raid 4 nights a week and think only a few classes are viable, are try-hards.

The culture of wow also has people pushing anything close to high content in a HUGE minority, the vast majority are casuals.

I see far more casuals who want to play with min maxers tp get kills and loot than min maxers who seek out casuals. Only one group actively seeks the other out and then complains when they don't get invited

[NineSpine]

[QUOTE=Sanitee;53100848]

Min maxers aren't joining +2 (except for valor farming), you're confusing them with try-hards. The players from Echo and Limit are min maxers, the ragers from that 3/10 mythic guild who raid 4 nights a week and think only a few classes are viable, are try-hards.

The culture of wow also has people pushing anything close to high content in a HUGE minority, the vast majority are casuals.

No, you are confusing "min maxers" with "good players". A bad min maxer is a try hard. You are just playing word games.

Yes, wow is dominated by casuals who are constantly forced to deal with a culture dominated by min maxers.

It's ridiculous to deny when you can just look at the absurd, abusive, bullying, delusion-of-grandeur attitude of T-34.

[Sinyc]

Have you read any of the threads about 'metas' in this forum?

It's going to be just as toxic if not more.

In what sense is min/maxing and playing with like-minded people "toxic". Why do people today misuse words and devalue them?

If a guild requires you to min/max the fun out of the game, don't apply to them. Find a guild or group of people that have similar expectations and playstyle to you.

[Ragedaug]

But. They. Don't. They waltz into low end pug content and lose their shit if everyone doesn't do what they say.

Who is "they"? That one guy you occasionally run into? I have news for you - "They" lose their poop no matter what game they are playing. "They" loose their poop when they are playing kickball at recess. "They" lose their poop when they are playing monopoly. "They" are generally just bad people who tend to have anger issues and/or don't know how to play well with others. "They" were like this before they played WoW (retail or any other version). There wasn't a specific WoW expansion that turned people bad. They were already and how they act has nothing to do with WoW.

Being a jerk in a group demanding everyone do what you say does not make you a min-maxer. Being a min-maxer doesn't mean you join groups go nutty and demand they do whatever you say.

What you are describing is a bad person, then what you are doing is attributing that trait to folks who simply have a different play style than you.

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The culture of wow is dominated by the min max, meta-slave attitude. It is not dominated by the casual attitude. Casual players don't join groups and demand everyone switch to off-meta specs. They don't lecture people on how they need to play worse. This is a ridiculous comparison.

Who are you grouping with?? I can't remember the last time I joined a group and got lectured on how to play. If anything I want min-maxers to say more to help the "bads", because "bads" aren't typically bad because they don't want to be, they are typically bad because they don't know any better. Most min-maxers I've played with just quietly push their buttons and make the raid/dungeon go by faster, and typically can't be bothered to bother the other randoms in group.

[Koward]

I prefer a "toxic" community to none at all like Retail's unfortunate situation of permanent silence and solitude.