Why was Arthas wrong?

[melkesjokolade]

Well basicly, even if it was the most "ethical" thing to do, I think you still dont have the right to take away their lives like that.

[Verdugo]

No, it wasn't. It's always been detectable, treatable and curable.

Straight up lying now?

[Ielenia]

No, it wasn't. It's always been detectable, treatable and curable.

Alright. Show me that this has been the case, then. Show me the passage in the books, game or anywhere in the lore where it states that the curse was already detectable, treatable and curable before Stratholme fell.

That you don't currently have a treatment does not make it untreatable.

Um... if there is no treatment, that means it's untreatable. Sure, something may be found later on, but that means the curse is untreatable at that point in time.

He had several hours to consider possibilities and alternatives. He just wasted them because he was to prideful to consider not arriving in time, despite that being his future job had he not abandoned his people.

You're nonsensically assuming that the entire planning would have to be done following the arrival of Jaina and Uther, when realistically, he should have been doing that from the moment he set out for Stratholme.

Arthas was incompetent as a Paladin and future monarch of Lordaeron.

How is it "nonsensical" if you're the one calling Arthas "incompetent" and "too prideful to not consider arriving in time"? By your own description of how Arthas is, then yes, the entire planning would have to be done following the arrival of Jaina and Uther. And again: Arthas is one man. One young, inexperienced man. You really expect him to be able to think all the alternatives while rushing toward Stratholme?

[AwkwardSquirtle]

The problem isn't just what Arthas did. It's that he acted rashly without considering any other course of action. He unilaterally decided that the only thing that could be done was to kill everyone whether they were infected or not, and nothing else could be considered. He dismissed the Paladins of the Silver Hand for not immediately agreeing with him. He didn't ask who'd eaten the grain. He didn't attempt a quarantine. He just went in and began killing.

[Ielenia]

The problem isn't just what Arthas did. It's that he acted rashly without considering any other course of action. He unilaterally decided that the only thing that could be done was to kill everyone whether they were infected or not, and nothing else could be considered. He dismissed the Paladins of the Silver Hand for not immediately agreeing with him. He didn't ask who'd eaten the grain. He didn't attempt a quarantine. He just went in and began killing.

Because there was no time to establish a quarantine. Because there was no time to deal with a dissenting group.

[Karreck]

So the good course of action would be to let every single person in the city either suffer the incurable, untreatable, undetectable curse and turn into a mindless, raging undead... or be horrifically killed by said mindless, raging undead?

The situation is not a binary "good choice or evil choice" one. There were several options of dealing with Stratholme present, each of them with their own problems. While the Culling of Stratholme was the quickest solution, and from a tactical standpoint perhaps the best action, that does not absolve Arthas and his soldiers of committing an evil act. The indiscriminate killing of innocents is always morally evil, regardless of motivation or justification.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

It didn't even turn out correct. Arthas actions were basically irrelevant, the city was wiped out and rose to undeath either way. Worst case scenario, he may actually have been the driving force behind it with the purge if the book's hints that the plague wasn't as widespread as he thought were confirmed.

All he achieved was driving people away from him.

Chronicles states that the city was already plagued and that it was just a matter of time so its cannon that it was wide spread.

[huth]

Chronicles states that the city was already plagued and that it was just a matter of time so its cannon that it was wide spread.

It confirms that there were infected. Not that it was widespread.

It also confirms that it was considered an atrocity by most of the people involved, with only small part of Arthas forces actually going along with it, and that Arthas was driven by hate, not concern for his people. This all works against the arguments that it was the right choice.

[Ardenaso]

So raising people from the dead nah thats totally normal, but people being turned undead by poisoned food!? gasp thats impossible!!!!!!!!

Yes, it only took Hearthglen for Arthas to learn about people being turned undead by poisoned food and he also thought that it was impossible. And Jaina and Uther didn't know

[Dartz1979]

i don't give no forgiveness to arthas he killed an entire race of people who does he think he is beerus?

[FelPlague]

The problem isn't just what Arthas did. It's that he acted rashly without considering any other course of action. He unilaterally decided that the only thing that could be done was to kill everyone whether they were infected or not, and nothing else could be considered. He dismissed the Paladins of the Silver Hand for not immediately agreeing with him. He didn't ask who'd eaten the grain. He didn't attempt a quarantine. He just went in and began killing.

"Did you eat the grain?'
*Villager 1* yes
*Arthas kills him.*
"Did you eat the grain?"
*Villager 2*.... No no I do not.
"Ok good."
*Villager 2 turns undead*

See the problem?

[Lorgar Aurelian]

It confirms that there were infected. Not that it was widespread.

It also confirms that it was considered an atrocity by most of the people involved, with only small part of Arthas forces actually going along with it, and that Arthas was driven by hate, not concern for his people. This all works against the arguments that it was the right choice.

I mean Warcraft 3 shows that it was wide spread, the caverns of time shows that it was wide spread, chronicles from a meta point says THE citizens not just a minority or a faction but THE citizens.

Every source frames it as wide spread to Pretend that it wasn’t is just ignoring the actual lore.

[huth]

See the problem?

Yes, you definitely shouldn't be tasked with organising such a measure.

I mean Warcraft 3 shows that it was wide spread, the caverns of time shows that it was wide spread, chronicles from a meta point says THE citizens not just a minority or a faction but THE citizens.

Every source frames it as wide spread to Pretend that it wasn’t is just ignoring the actual lore.

WarCraft 3 also had you punch houses into nonexistence, Caverns of Time doesn't really show the spread, it just has the city filled with undead some of which had no business being there and Chronicles notably does not qualify the statement.

You're also blatantly ignoring that hardly anybody agreed with Arthas assessment, not even those troops that were around to see what he was talking about.

[Jastall]

In theory Arthas wasn't wrong. Not only was the city already in the grips of an incredibly virulent and dangerous contagion, there were undead forces already working to undermine it from within. A quarantine would probably have served nothing, especially since Mal'ganis seems to showcase teleportation powers in that mission in WC3.

The issue is that he communicated it terribly. He apparently told nothing about the plague to Uther before arriving at the gates of the city and he barely even tries to explain himself before declaring that the entire city must be slaughtered, and proclaiming Uther a traitor the moment he questions such a seemingly rash decision. Plus, when he decided to begin the purge didn't actually know how extensive Mal'ganis's infiltration of the city was.

And the bigger issue is that the purge truly started him on the path to thinking the most expedient and extreme solution to any problem was the best; need Mal'ganis dead, sail to Northrend with an army with no reconnaissance or anything. Need the soldiers to stay, destroys the ships. Need to win a battle he can't, throws himself at the nearest explicitly cursed weapon he knows nothing about. He was certainly brash beforehand, but Stratholme shattered any restraint he might have had and brought the worst of his character flaws to the forefront. That was the real damage of the purge for Arthas, not that he was wrong, but that he learned the entirely wrong lessons from being right.


Side-note, I always found it weird that the solution to a bunch of necromancers turning people into zombies was... to kill these people. Isn't that just swapping their fate to being raised as skeletons or whatever? I get that later on we see people burn the bodies but those are random citizens, not soldiers under Arthas's command who is gone when Uther and Jaina return.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

WarCraft 3 also had you punch houses into nonexistence, Caverns of Time doesn't really show the spread, it just has the city filled with undead some of which had no business being there and Chronicles notably does not qualify the statement.

Game mechanics existing doesn’t nullify the lore when multiple sources with different or no game mechanics agree, there is no massive disagreement of sources they all agree that it was wide spread.

You're also blatantly ignoring that hardly anybody agreed with Arthas assessment, not even those troops that were around to see what he was talking about.

We have Jaina Uther and the Palladian’s uther brought leaving, we then have arthas and one of his named knights staying and other men.

There’s no mentions of numbers no mention of who saw the people turn at hearthglen and who of that group stayed or any other info needed to say hardly any one agreed with him or that the troops that saw what he saw went with uther.

Literally all we have is two named people stayed and two left with X amount with each group.

[Kokolums]

Of course he was wrong. You're all missing the point that he killed indiscriminately without regard to whether the person he was murdering was actually infected.

Are you suggesting Arthas and his advisors have a 21st century level understanding of disease? He understands infections, viruses, bacteria, herd immunity theory, spread patterns, etc.? He likely only understands the very basics, like when a plague hits, you need to annihilate it fast before it spreads by culling the herd.

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The issue is that he communicated it terribly. He apparently told nothing about the plague to Uther before arriving at the gates of the city and he barely even tries to explain himself before declaring that the entire city must be slaughtered, and proclaiming Uther a traitor the moment he questions such a seemingly rash decision. Plus, when he decided to begin the purge didn't actually know how extensive Mal'ganis's infiltration of the city was.

Lordaeron is NOT a democracy. It is a kingdom. You have absolute rulers. The advantage of such a system is that you can quick decisions and execute them without deliberation in a crisis. Uther and Jaina should fully understand that they are in a crisis and need to execute the plan ASAP. The HUGE advantage of a kingdom is that you DON'T have to explain things. Just DO IT.

[MikeBogina]

Quarantine works well on people with a disease... that doesn't turn everyone into a zombie. Those people were dead one way or another, Arthas' way was the best solution. Mal'ganis iirc was even teleporting undead out of the city if you didn't act fast enough.


I just really don't get the whole idea that the mages of Dalaran would have been able to quarantine the city and come up with a cure, when Arthas wiped out the majority of undead from Lordaeron, went to Northrend and fought for a while and came back and had to restart the undead invasion from scratch... and the mages didn't act while Lordaeron and Quel'thalas were being overrun, until Arthas brought the Scourge to their very doorstep. These guys sat on their ass the whole time. Which I'm sure is just for game flow reasons cause it makes no sense, but it's still canon, they didn't do anything.

[Jastall]

Lordaeron is NOT a democracy. It is a kingdom. You have absolute rulers. The advantage of such a system is that you can quick decisions and execute them without deliberation in a crisis. Uther and Jaina should fully understand that they are in a crisis and need to execute the plan ASAP. The HUGE advantage of a kingdom is that you DON'T have to explain things. Just DO IT.

Yeah that's cute, except that's not how it actually worked in reality, especially since as Uther puts it Arthas is neither his king nor his superior as a Paladin and Arthas is not entitled to be believed just because. That he was right is neither here nor there, he made a pretty terrible case for himself to two people he had little authority over and acted rashly when they refused to blindly obey. That's not the mark of a good leader.

[Kokolums]

Yeah that's cute, except that's not how it actually worked in reality, especially since as Uther puts it Arthas is neither his king nor his superior as a Paladin and Arthas is not entitled to be believed just because. That he was right is neither here nor there, he made a pretty terrible case for himself to two people he had little authority over and acted rashly when they refused to blindly obey. That's not the mark of a good leader.

Having a spat over authority in a kingdom when there is a huge crisis is complete idiocy. Uther was 100000% wrong. Could you just imagine the NEXT crisis?

"X is going to hell"
"should we ask Uther?"
"hell no. he went butthurt during the plague. leave him out of this!"

[Whitedragon]

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How? The city was so big that many, if not most of those who didn't turn would end up killed by the undead before Arthas could save them.

Hell if nothing else hand them something blunt or sharp and tell them "You die by the undead, We win and you live, or you die by me." and point them back into the city. Past that he could have at the very least not alienated his allies and told Uther to get in there and kill any undead he came across, and had jaina as backup to teleport the healthy populace away.