Who can pull more M+15 damage: UHDK vs Moonkin ?

[Raugnaut]

The only time a Boomkin should do more damage then an Unholy DK is when they do a CA+Convoke - SO basically every 3 minutes and on Bosses the Boomkin should beat the Unholy, otherwise Unholy beats the Boomkin.

[Th3Scourge]

Be a real man and play Frost DK. BoS or die

[Radaney]

I usually topped metres on my boomkin against my UHDK friend at 15 keys because I was only slightly less damage on trash but so much further ahead on boss damage. Also on some weeks, being melee made my UHDK friend want to seppuku.

Also yes having to use tree's is absolutely nightmare fuel for DPS on trash. Nature's Balance is very strong for trash damage in a M+. My tank only gets me to use tree's in Necrotic weeks.

In higher level keys, at say 15+ when mob HP is so much higher. UHDK will destroy boomkin on overall damage. You will see this reflected in Warcraftlogs in 15-20 keys logs. This is because UHDK has better consistent AoE damage, with minimal ramp up.

In meta groups you'll bring a Fire Mage instead of a UHDK though, as the Fire Mage and Boomkin are able to rotate their extremely powerful cooldowns between each other and annihilate everything in the dungeon, whilst a outlaw rogue pumps out the consistent damage.

[GnomeEU]

If the druid has to skill trees it means he won't have the 50 power at the start of every pull to starfall.
He has to cast for 10 seconds first before starfall.

So yes if you force your druid to take trees his dps will be smaller.

[Saubon]

If the druid has to skill trees it means he won't have the 50 power at the start of every pull to starfall.
He has to cast for 10 seconds first before starfall.

So yes if you force your druid to take trees his dps will be smaller.

You have to pool astral power when pack is about to die so you have 50+ AP for next pack. You should struggle with AP only if there is a downtime between pulls (like in SOA or DOS)

[Greengrim]

You have to pool astral power when pack is about to die so you have 50+ AP for next pack. You should struggle with AP only if there is a downtime between pulls (like in SOA or DOS)

Very true.

Also vice versa applies for Nature's Balance doesn't it? If you chain pull, and don't have X amount of time to spend out of combat so that astral power charges back up, it's actually not as potent. How much time does it actually take for the talent to bring AP back to 50? If it's more than 3-4 seconds, surely the talent is not as strong, and pre-pooling is needed even if you are using it.

[Saubon]

Very true.

Also vice versa applies for Nature's Balance doesn't it? If you chain pull, and don't have X amount of time to spend out of combat so that astral power charges back up, it's actually not as potent. How much time does it actually take for the talent to bring AP back to 50? If it's more than 3-4 seconds, surely the talent is not as strong, and pre-pooling is needed even if you are using it.

Nature's balance makes big difference for trash. I run warrior of elune for lower keys tho

[Greengrim]

Nature's balance makes big difference for trash. I run warrior of elune for lower keys tho

Yeah but as others have mentioned, it's highly dependant on pulls. If you spend no/almost no time out of combat, and if it takes around 5 sec for it to recharge back to 50 AP then Nature's Balance isn't all that great imho.

[HASELHOOF93]

Hello guys,

I kindly ask for your assistance, to put an end to an argument we're having with some of my friends.

It's regarding UHDK vs Moonkin damage in Mythic +15 pool. We are seeing the DK pull ahead in in about 95% of the cases (a hundred runs or so), and the druid's arguments are:
1) "I have to do utility stuff"
2) "DK is an OP class"
And by "utility" you must understand Treants on CD + rarely throwing a heal/innervate/mass root.

On the other side, the DK believes that the Moonkin is underperforming and should not be doing lower damage all the time.

So who do you believe should be pulling more according to your experiences?

I've been searching for some kind of simulations or ranklists which can help us in the argument, but sadly, there's just pros/cons stuff, and simcraft's raidsims. Any help in this regard will also be highly appreciated.

Thanks in advance guys!

Take this from a guy with 2k+ experience (not saying it is particalurly much, but its something) on multiple classes/roles and with different teams: the DK should indeed pull ahead in about 95% of the cases.

Especially since we are talking about 15's (mobs die quick) - Moonkins have a ramp up time, UDKs do not.

Moonkin is a enabler class. The utility the class brings makes everything easier for every single player in the group. Just without having Treants you would have to kite more as a tank which results in movement = less damage output. And lets not forget about Vortex and Typhoon, huge value, epescially noticeable during this Necrotic week.

With that said, there sure is cases where a Moonkin could pull ahead, depending on how you pull.

The case could still be that your Boomie is underperforming but being under a UHDK is no indicator of that.
I would try to find logs to compare with.

Small addition: due to seasonal affix Convoke (with Celestial) is pretty much a single target CD used for either Pride or bosses (and thus can be hold on) while UHDKs use their CDs as soon as they come up on multitargets (besides of Army).


Any answer here claiming something else simple don't know what they are talking about, sorry.

Cheers,

[Greengrim]

Be a real man and play Frost DK. BoS or die

I don't think the day this pancake will turn around is all that far to be honest.

[kamuimac]

Hello guys,

I kindly ask for your assistance, to put an end to an argument we're having with some of my friends.

It's regarding UHDK vs Moonkin damage in Mythic +15 pool. We are seeing the DK pull ahead in in about 95% of the cases (a hundred runs or so), and the druid's arguments are:
1) "I have to do utility stuff"
2) "DK is an OP class"
And by "utility" you must understand Treants on CD + rarely throwing a heal/innervate/mass root.

On the other side, the DK believes that the Moonkin is underperforming and should not be doing lower damage all the time.

So who do you believe should be pulling more according to your experiences?

I've been searching for some kind of simulations or ranklists which can help us in the argument, but sadly, there's just pros/cons stuff, and simcraft's raidsims. Any help in this regard will also be highly appreciated.

Thanks in advance guys!

i cannot speak for 15+ - but in the 10-13 range i do regurarly i have yet to see even a singular moonkin doing good dps- most of them are garbage meta rerolls - same with fire mages - i can maybe count on fingers of 1 hand number of fire mages doing good in this bracket.

[Kikazz]

Hello guys,

I kindly ask for your assistance, to put an end to an argument we're having with some of my friends.

It's regarding UHDK vs Moonkin damage in Mythic +15 pool. We are seeing the DK pull ahead in in about 95% of the cases (a hundred runs or so), and the druid's arguments are:
1) "I have to do utility stuff"
2) "DK is an OP class"
And by "utility" you must understand Treants on CD + rarely throwing a heal/innervate/mass root.

On the other side, the DK believes that the Moonkin is underperforming and should not be doing lower damage all the time.

So who do you believe should be pulling more according to your experiences?

I've been searching for some kind of simulations or ranklists which can help us in the argument, but sadly, there's just pros/cons stuff, and simcraft's raidsims. Any help in this regard will also be highly appreciated.

Thanks in advance guys!

Moonkin - Depending on Group
Soothe,
ursols (to keep mobs still so tank can kite)
Mass Entangle if Specced
Treants when called for.
Heals when called for or heavy group damage
Innervate on healer when at or below 75% mana
Typhoon for slows/knockback out of things.
Multiple single application dots in a spread.
add to that our own CDS for dps such as Convoke, Incarnation Pots/Trinkets etc...

Unholy DK - easily the most basic Melee Class
AOE Rotation.
odd silence on a short CD
odd grip here and Now
odd Bres Hear and now.

a druid is the utillity class.
i get if the druid isnt doing these things, then yes he should be easier to stay ahead.

but if the druid is there for the utility i suggested, they have no start off AP, there dps is ramp, and if the trash packs last less than 30 seconds, GG you wont beat an Unholy DK.

now on bosses though, the druid should easily beat the Unholy.

[skitzin]

Honestly, the UDK should win out most fights against the Boomkin in a dps race.

Both classes and specs have setup time but a boomkin needs to do more setup to get rolling. And because of that, the longer something lives the better DPS the boomkin will do. Similarly, in reverse the shorter something lives for the better AOE burst is which is kind of the strength of UDK AOE aside from it being consistent. By the time a boomkin gets their AOE rolling the UDK has already got them down or close to down.

I personally feel that people misunderstand the way the meta works, and why specific classes are meta in specific roles. Damage alone is not enough for keys as you get higher and higher. Mobs start hitting too hard to just faceroll your way through them and ignore the mechanics. In the case of boomkin, they bring a lot more value to the table from their entire kit than just some decent DPS.

They bring battle rez (which since paladins and shamans are favoured in keys is needed), they bring a tanking CD with trents that helps the tank kite or can take the pressure off them for a bit, they bring vortex which is good to help clump up mobs or keep specific mobs held back away from players for a time, innervate for the healer if they need more mana, typhoon is a knockback that again helps position or dismiss mobs as needed by preventing them from getting a cast-off or by repealing them from a player, they have a powerful AOE silence that enables for mass interrupting mobs, they have roots which can be used to bind mobs and assist others with kiting, they can also stealth which means that some skips by death can be done comfortably as the druid can then rez people, shapeshift freeing them from slows and roots can be exploited to avoid certain mechanics in fights, then they have some offhealing abilities, and after all that you can add in the decent dps they bring with them.

So for me judging a good boomkin is not something best done by damage meters alone but rather at how frequently and effectively they are using their utility spells to assist the group as a whole. Yes, they should be doing solid dps numbers but at the same time, I wouldn't worry about an UDK beating them on the meters.

For bosses the boomkin can win but that's largely a case of blowing their CDs with Convoke to nuke a single target down.

[Tyrilion]

Its usually easier to perform well as UH DK with chain pulls, since you got your AoE burst every 60 seconds and pride for apo is also a good match for cooldown ussage.

As a casual UH DK player, it feels very easy to outperform moonkins in overall, I usually target a fire mage or MM hunter as competition in overall dmg.

But a tank that doesnt even pull just kite from the start is a challenge for everyone but multi-dot specs, so its possible to make just multi-dot specs shine.

I highly welcome the DH tanking nerfs this week, it should get rid of the FOTM DH tanks who dont even try to min-max group dmg and just kite 100% because they can* (could*)

The fact you think these nerfs will remove DH from FOTM means you dont play the class at all, these changes will be minor at best and with a buff to phys dmg they will still be up at the top due to the sometimes needed mobility and the insane utility they bring as well as the stupid dmg.

OT - I regularly see UDH outdps boomies, udh are in a very good place atm in M+, bosses should be where boomies shine, big trash packs is UDH

[Saubon]

I'm quite surprised by how many ppl voted for boomies in the poll

[ellieg]

I'm quite surprised by how many ppl voted for boomies in the poll

Mmochamp is 90% ppl that either don't do m+ at all or haven't even timed a +10. But they heard moonkin is "OP" cause they saw someone get deleted by convoke once so they voted for it.

[Greengrim]

I'm quite surprised by how many ppl voted for boomies in the poll

Indeed, quite contradictive to the comments that people left in here.

[Saubon]

I mean, casuals usually look at boss dmg where moonkins shine so thats why is this poll so biased.

My fury warrior pump more than boomkins in all dungeons. 100%

Overall dmg ofc.

A friend of mine plays nightfae fury warrior and he is a monster in trash fights, I can do similar overall dmg only on my monk

[Ange]

A friend of mine plays nightfae fury warrior and he is a monster in trash fights, I can do similar overall dmg only on my monk

You can create a space for every spec with every CD and you can of course let everyone look bad with creating a group with DPS starving each other on the same cooldown timings.

For PUGs I actually like 3 mixed DPS, so there is minimal overlap with cooldowns and burst and you have allways someone with cooldowns for a priority target. It makes runs much easier, even if its not the fastest possible way.