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  1. #361
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    Having a spat over authority in a kingdom when there is a huge crisis is complete idiocy. Uther was 100000% wrong. Could you just imagine the NEXT crisis?

    "X is going to hell"
    "should we ask Uther?"
    "hell no. he went butthurt during the plague. leave him out of this!"
    Make up your mind. Either hierarchy is incredibly important in a medieval kingdom, or it isn't and following it is "a spat over authority". Or maybe you catch on what actually happened in actual kingdoms instead of the idealized notions you spouted before; not everyone agreed on everything and hierarchies and loyalties both were quite often not as clear-cut as on paper leading to much disunity.

    In any case, given that right afterwards Terenas listened to Uther when it came to recalling Arthas's army from Northrend (and that this time Uther was very much right that going there was a stupid initiative), it seems your idea of what should happen and what actually happened conflict once more.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

    The internet: where to every action is opposed an unequal overreaction.

  2. #362
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    Lordaeron is NOT a democracy. It is a kingdom. You have absolute rulers. The advantage of such a system is that you can quick decisions and execute them without deliberation in a crisis. Uther and Jaina should fully understand that they are in a crisis and need to execute the plan ASAP. The HUGE advantage of a kingdom is that you DON'T have to explain things. Just DO IT.
    And Arthas is neither a ruler nor the superior of Uther (who is Arthas' superior) and Jaina (who isn't even from Lordaeron, and as such not subject to its hierarchy). So what you're saying here is that they were perfectly in their right not to follow his demands as he had no authority over them and made no real effort to plead his case.

  3. #363
    Yes, we should kill everyone that coughs because they can spread COVID-19.

    ... do you understand why it was wrong now?

  4. #364
    Quote Originally Posted by Josyel View Post
    Yes, we should kill everyone that coughs because they can spread COVID-19.

    ... do you understand why it was wrong now?
    Because Covid turns people into zombies...

    Did you even think before posting? Or just wanted to be funny?

  5. #365
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    In theory Arthas wasn't wrong. Not only was the city already in the grips of an incredibly virulent and dangerous contagion, there were undead forces already working to undermine it from within. A quarantine would probably have served nothing, especially since Mal'ganis seems to showcase teleportation powers in that mission in WC3.

    The issue is that he communicated it terribly. He apparently told nothing about the plague to Uther before arriving at the gates of the city and he barely even tries to explain himself before declaring that the entire city must be slaughtered, and proclaiming Uther a traitor the moment he questions such a seemingly rash decision. Plus, when he decided to begin the purge didn't actually know how extensive Mal'ganis's infiltration of the city was.

    And the bigger issue is that the purge truly started him on the path to thinking the most expedient and extreme solution to any problem was the best; need Mal'ganis dead, sail to Northrend with an army with no reconnaissance or anything. Need the soldiers to stay, destroys the ships. Need to win a battle he can't, throws himself at the nearest explicitly cursed weapon he knows nothing about. He was certainly brash beforehand, but Stratholme shattered any restraint he might have had and brought the worst of his character flaws to the forefront. That was the real damage of the purge for Arthas, not that he was wrong, but that he learned the entirely wrong lessons from being right.
    It's less the specific action that speaks against Arthas here, but that he jumped to the solution immediately. He was confronted with the city being infected and his first decision upon being presented with the issue is killing everyone inside. Now I do think that was the right call - you can't get to the Kirin Tor to quarantine the city in time and even if you could it'd be pointless because Mal'ganis teleports the zombies away. Letting it happen would be a massive swell in the Scourge's army. None of these arguments come up though and Arthas (and everyone else) aren't aware of this as they go in. He was right, for the wrong reasons on the basis of info he didn't have access to and while making a knee-jerk decision to destroy an entire city's population.

    Stratholme is a turning point not because it wasn't locally the right choice, but it's after that he ditches his noble pretext of why he's pursuing what he's doing in favor of his revenge against Mal'ganis, throwing absolutely everyone under the bus for the sake of his own fulfilment. He quickly drops both Jaina and Uther when they don't immediately indulge him, which is the same attitude he takes towards his troops, the mercenaries and Muradin later. This is also emphasized in how he tells Medivh to go fuck himself - yes, Medivh is an autist who can't communicate ideas, but he also doesn't speak to what Arthas cares about, which is the personal slight dealt to him, both by Mal'ganis and by those he figures should be obeying him.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2021-03-29 at 09:29 AM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  6. #366
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    It's less the specific action that speaks against Arthas here, but that he jumped to the solution immediately. He was confronted with the city being infected and his first decision upon being presented with the issue is killing everyone inside. Now I do think that was the right call - you can't get to the Kirin Tor to quarantine the city in time and even if you could it'd be pointless because Mal'ganis teleports the zombies away. Letting it happen would be a massive swell in the Scourge's army. None of these arguments come up though and Arthas (and everyone else) aren't aware of this as they go in. He was right, for the wrong reasons on the basis of info he didn't have access to and while making a knee-jerk decision to destroy an entire city's population.
    That's probably his biggest fault overall. Not considering any alternate approaches, regardless of which is ultimately chosen, and never making any serious attempt to plead his case to his allies, thus losing their support.

    Though it should be noted that from the Scourge's perspective, the culling likely was at best a minor setback. The city was still destroyed, depriving Lordaeron of a major stronghold, they just later raised the dead anyway and the main objective was Arthas, not the city. From a strategical PoV, having Arthas quarantine the city and stay solidly on the side of Lordaeron would likely have been a far bigger blow, even if it meant more undead in the short-term.
    So whether the purge was logically the best option is questionable, too.
    But it isn't the main point where Arthas went wrong. That's solidly on his monomaniacal focus on purging as the only option and expectation that everybody should just go along with it.

  7. #367
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    That's probably his biggest fault overall. Not considering any alternate approaches, regardless of which is ultimately chosen, and never making any serious attempt to plead his case to his allies, thus losing their support.

    Though it should be noted that from the Scourge's perspective, the culling likely was at best a minor setback. The city was still destroyed, depriving Lordaeron of a major stronghold, they just later raised the dead anyway and the main objective was Arthas, not the city. From a strategical PoV, having Arthas quarantine the city and stay solidly on the side of Lordaeron would likely have been a far bigger blow, even if it meant more undead in the short-term.
    So whether the purge was logically the best option is questionable, too.
    But it isn't the main point where Arthas went wrong. That's solidly on his monomaniacal focus on purging as the only option and expectation that everybody should just go along with it.
    He writes them off immediately and doesn't try to explain himself, which is a similar attitude he takes to a lethal level when it's down to the mercs. Like you say, it's not the specific decision but what it tells about him as a purpose and how it's later expanded on. Stratholme isn't really the end point of his story, just the one where it shows what sort of person he is.

    That said, while I agree him leaving for Northrend was a mistake, I don't think that purging the city itself is. Mal'ganis left because the Purge meant he had nothing left o hand. When the Scourge return to Lordaeron they're down to underground cultists and what guys Arthas brings with him when he kills Terenas, not a proper army. In that sense, Arthas was succesful in driving the Scourge. He fucked up in that he wasn't interested in finishing the job but in going after Mal'ganis personally. Just by going to Northrend he eliminated any advantage in limiting Scourge numbers that he first set up. After the Purge he should've stayed put and worked with Antonidas and company. I don't actually see any strong reason to believe that Medivh is right and they need to ditch Lordaeron. It and Dalaran could've stood their ground.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

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  8. #368
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    Are you suggesting Arthas and his advisors have a 21st century level understanding of disease? He understands infections, viruses, bacteria, herd immunity theory, spread patterns, etc.? He likely only understands the very basics, like when a plague hits, you need to annihilate it fast before it spreads by culling the herd.
    Indeed.

    It's adorable how people here shout about how he should have quarantined the city as if such a measure could work. Especially since Mal'ganis was running around in the city and teleporting the undead out so they could spread. Not to mention that even with 21st century level of understanding there are those "special" people who will try to break the quarantine for stupid reasons and infect others.

    No no no. The deed itself was horrible, there is no question about that and Arthas was fully aware of it, but he had no time and even fewer options. He sacrificed hundreds to save thousands, maybe tenthousands. Uthers outrage was ridiculous. He had barely any clue what was going on, nor did he offer any alternative. He would have let Lordaeron be overrun by the undead because he could not make the hard decision that was needed.

    Arthas may have done some evil shit later, when under the influence of Ner'zhul and the Jailer, but this here wasn't one of those things. Arthas loved his people and he killed the inhabitants of Stratholme both to safe them from a much grizzlier death and to safe the rest of the country.

  9. #369
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    He writes them off immediately and doesn't try to explain himself, which is a similar attitude he takes to a lethal level when it's down to the mercs. Like you say, it's not the specific decision but what it tells about him as a purpose and how it's later expanded on. Stratholme isn't really the end point of his story, just the one where it shows what sort of person he is.

    That said, while I agree him leaving for Northrend was a mistake, I don't think that purging the city itself is. Mal'ganis left because the Purge meant he had nothing left o hand. When the Scourge return to Lordaeron they're down to underground cultists and what guys Arthas brings with him when he kills Terenas, not a proper army. In that sense, Arthas was succesful in driving the Scourge. He fucked up in that he wasn't interested in finishing the job but in going after Mal'ganis personally. Just by going to Northrend he eliminated any advantage in limiting Scourge numbers that he first set up. After the Purge he should've stayed put and worked with Antonidas and company. I don't actually see any strong reason to believe that Medivh is right and they need to ditch Lordaeron. It and Dalaran could've stood their ground.
    It's weird to me how so many seem to ignore this. That Arthas wasn't wrong per se, but it showed a lot about his character and how "bad" he was already turning out to be due to how he handled stratholme. He was bad before frostmourne got to him and his choices in stratholme is, to me, one of the big factors WHY frostmourne and lich king could influence him.
    Best example I can think of is that if you have a patient who needs to have their leg amputated or they will die. You have one who is a doctor and does what needs to be done. They probably won't feel good about doing it and they can empathise with the patient about it. But it has to be done.
    Then you have someone who seems to be more eager to actually chop the leg of for the sake of chopping of the leg. One of them you probably don't want to have dinner alone with. And I know who I would pick.

    The idea of stratholme and why it's good is because of these nuances; that he does the right thing, but it's very obviously quickly that he isn't doing it for the right reasons. It's his process to justify it for himself and towards others to achieve his goal. I feel like a lot who are hell bent on that he was "right" objectively seem to miss this nuance.
    Error 404 - Signature not found

  10. #370
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    He writes them off immediately and doesn't try to explain himself, which is a similar attitude he takes to a lethal level when it's down to the mercs. Like you say, it's not the specific decision but what it tells about him as a purpose and how it's later expanded on. Stratholme isn't really the end point of his story, just the one where it shows what sort of person he is.
    While true, there wasn't much explaining needed. Jaina was with him in Hearthglen, she saw what happened to the people there, Uther arrived late but I doubt he did not get a sitrep. Arthas was headstrong and arrogant, but he was also right and both Jaina and Uther should have seen this. I can't fault Jaina for backing away, she was what 17 or 18? Not an age where you are usually able to make a calm decision over killing hundreds of people, but Uther is an experienced Paladin. He should have been able to see the situation realistically.

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    That said, while I agree him leaving for Northrend was a mistake, I don't think that purging the city itself is. Mal'ganis left because the Purge meant he had nothing left o hand. When the Scourge return to Lordaeron they're down to underground cultists and what guys Arthas brings with him when he kills Terenas, not a proper army. In that sense, Arthas was succesful in driving the Scourge. He fucked up in that he wasn't interested in finishing the job but in going after Mal'ganis personally. Just by going to Northrend he eliminated any advantage in limiting Scourge numbers that he first set up. After the Purge he should've stayed put and worked with Antonidas and company. I don't actually see any strong reason to believe that Medivh is right and they need to ditch Lordaeron. It and Dalaran could've stood their ground.
    This is true. Of course it was a clever scheme, with Mal'ganis being the lure to get Arthas to come to Northrend and get Forstmourne, but it only succeeded because the young prince fell for it. Which he might not have if after Stratholme there had been people to support him. Without them he felt he was the only one doing what was needed (which is not far from the truth. Uther was after all occupied complaining to Terenas) and he thought the only way to end the Scourge for good was killing Mal'ganis.
    And yes I am also a bit confused with Medivh. I mean, Dalaran had literal anti-undead shields. They could have destroyed the rest of the Cult pretty easily and secured Lordaeron after Stratholme. Without Arthas fighting and coordinating the undead they are much less of a threat.

  11. #371
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    While true, there wasn't much explaining needed. Jaina was with him in Hearthglen, she saw what happened to the people there, Uther arrived late but I doubt he did not get a sitrep. Arthas was headstrong and arrogant, but he was also right and both Jaina and Uther should have seen this. I can't fault Jaina for backing away, she was what 17 or 18? Not an age where you are usually able to make a calm decision over killing hundreds of people, but Uther is an experienced Paladin. He should have been able to see the situation realistically.
    None of those present had any idea that Mal'ganis would be teleporting the zombies away as they did, nor that there was no cure. We know from later on that the Kirin Tor do actually have spells that stop undead in an area since they use it vs. Arthas. Hesitating at the idea of offing the entire population isn't really a character failing on them, especially when it's the absolute first option presented. Arthas doesn't try to explain himself to them at all but immediately pulls rank. Mind, he also has his own reasons to act emotional in that case, but like @Kumorii says, it tells a lot about him that this is the first thing he goes to and also how his actions only escalate past that point.

    Could they have backed him up after he did it? Sure, and it might have sorted things. At that point Arthas had made a difficult, but correct call and if he wanted to continue defeating the Scourge and securing Lordaeron, he could've headed back, sorted things with his dad and even settled things with Uther. We know from what we see later that Uther was far from impossible to convince and Arthas's case isn't a weak one. Arthas heading to Northrend was a mistake and an obvious one and his tunnel vision on himself and on Mal'ganis are what leads to a lot that follows. The fact that he takes it as a personal slight is at the root of a lot of his issues going forward and this is itself partly because without Jaina and Uther he has zero people close to him.

    Medivh is kind of a moron when you really look back at the story. His main form of sharing information is to run up and rant at people about incoming non-specific doom while providing no real information. Explaining literally any aspect of what was to happen would have solved everything. Instead of calling Antonidas a dumbass who'll soon be lost he could've mentioned that Dalaran has his demon summoning book and maybe Antonidas should throw it in the incinerator. Also that the Lich King exists. Sadly, Medivh was a socially stunted momma's boy and countless died because of it.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

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  12. #372
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Medivh is kind of a moron when you really look back at the story. His main form of sharing information is to run up and rant at people about incoming non-specific doom while providing no real information. Explaining literally any aspect of what was to happen would have solved everything. Instead of calling Antonidas a dumbass who'll soon be lost he could've mentioned that Dalaran has his demon summoning book and maybe Antonidas should throw it in the incinerator. Also that the Lich King exists. Sadly, Medivh was a socially stunted momma's boy and countless died because of it.
    Not to mention he only warned the humans and orcs, not bothering with the rest.
    Last edited by Combatbutler; 2021-03-29 at 02:21 PM.

  13. #373
    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    Do you always like to quote conversations that took place days ago? Been there, discussed that. Feel free to read the rest of the conversation since you are obviously so interested.

    But to play your game: I am/was looking at the problem strictly from an R0 factor. Whether the carrier turns into a zombie or dies or turns into a unicorn is largely irrelevant when the only goal is go prevent further spreading of it. I don't really understand why that is so hard for some to grasp, but oh well.
    yes, in fact i waited 5 days this time.

    as far as an R0 factor, considering we didnt handle covid the way we should have and it has spread completely world wide to basically every inch.... id say we failed pretty damn horribly. probably because people werent that worried about it. now if you were to turn into a unicorn then it may have spread even faster, honestly. people would love to be unicorns judging from the popularity of my little pony.

    so... i guess arthas was right. because we as the human race sure as hell didnt pull it off. purging was the correct answer.

  14. #374
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    None of those present had any idea that Mal'ganis would be teleporting the zombies away as they did, nor that there was no cure. We know from later on that the Kirin Tor do actually have spells that stop undead in an area since they use it vs. Arthas. Hesitating at the idea of offing the entire population isn't really a character failing on them, especially when it's the absolute first option presented. Arthas doesn't try to explain himself to them at all but immediately pulls rank. Mind, he also has his own reasons to act emotional in that case, but like @Kumorii says, it tells a lot about him that this is the first thing he goes to and also how his actions only escalate past that point.
    It's indeed his insecurities and inferiority complex showing, that he harbored for a long time. Especially when confronted with more experienced folks. One could spin it positively by saying that pulling rank and giving a clear order he tries to take all the responsibility for what he feels must be done, sparing his men from having to make this horrible decision. Probably not what the story was going for, but it makes somewhat sense. It's similar to destroying the boats in Northrend. By doing that he eliminates the responsibility of his men men having to choose between following him or their king's call home.

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Could they have backed him up after he did it? Sure, and it might have sorted things. At that point Arthas had made a difficult, but correct call and if he wanted to continue defeating the Scourge and securing Lordaeron, he could've headed back, sorted things with his dad and even settled things with Uther. We know from what we see later that Uther was far from impossible to convince and Arthas's case isn't a weak one. Arthas heading to Northrend was a mistake and an obvious one and his tunnel vision on himself and on Mal'ganis are what leads to a lot that follows. The fact that he takes it as a personal slight is at the root of a lot of his issues going forward and this is itself partly because without Jaina and Uther he has zero people close to him.
    Yep, this is the issue. He took protecting his people extremely personal and every death through the plague physically hurt him and he blamed himself for it, leading to him also starting to consider himself the only one able to deal with it. It's this fixation and the endless compassion he has for his people that Mal'ganis and the Lich King use against him in the end. He was ready to sacrifice everything for his country, his integrity and concience, life and even his soul when he took up what he thought was the only weapon to save his people.
    Thanks to the corruption of Frostmourne he then began to transfer these feelings onto the undead and even began to view his former enemy Kel'thuzad as a trusted friend. His mind was throughly fucked at this point, which makes it really hard for me to take it seriously when Danuser now claims that Arthas was still in control...

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Medivh is kind of a moron when you really look back at the story. His main form of sharing information is to run up and rant at people about incoming non-specific doom while providing no real information. Explaining literally any aspect of what was to happen would have solved everything. Instead of calling Antonidas a dumbass who'll soon be lost he could've mentioned that Dalaran has his demon summoning book and maybe Antonidas should throw it in the incinerator. Also that the Lich King exists. Sadly, Medivh was a socially stunted momma's boy and countless died because of it.
    Yeah... no argument there. He could have carried a sign with "The end is nigh" and he would have been only slightly less believable... I mean he obviously knew about the future... so telling Terenas and Antonidas about the plague might have been a smart choice... and even if that did not work he could have attacked the delivery of the infected grain himself to stop the plague in it's tracks...

  15. #375
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    It's indeed his insecurities and inferiority complex showing, that he harbored for a long time. Especially when confronted with more experienced folks. One could spin it positively by saying that pulling rank and giving a clear order he tries to take all the responsibility for what he feels must be done, sparing his men from having to make this horrible decision. Probably not what the story was going for, but it makes somewhat sense. It's similar to destroying the boats in Northrend. By doing that he eliminates the responsibility of his men men having to choose between following him or their king's call home.

    Yep, this is the issue. He took protecting his people extremely personal and every death through the plague physically hurt him and he blamed himself for it, leading to him also starting to consider himself the only one able to deal with it. It's this fixation and the endless compassion he has for his people that Mal'ganis and the Lich King use against him in the end. He was ready to sacrifice everything for his country, his integrity and concience, life and even his soul when he took up what he thought was the only weapon to save his people.
    Thanks to the corruption of Frostmourne he then began to transfer these feelings onto the undead and even began to view his former enemy Kel'thuzad as a trusted friend. His mind was throughly fucked at this point, which makes it really hard for me to take it seriously when Danuser now claims that Arthas was still in control...
    I consider that a really charitable interpretation that doesn't hold any water, especially the last point. It's not that Arthas cares so much for the people there that he doesn't bear to kill them - never in the book, nor in WC3 especially does Arthas show any emotional reaction to the killing of the people of Stratholme. He doesn't lay this at Mal'ganis' feet nor bring it up. Instead, what he principally blames Mal'ganis for is the personal slight Mal'ganis has dealt him - Mal'ganis didn't just prey upon any kingdom, but upon his kingdom in particular. The kingdom and its people, from Stratholme on and especially once he's a Death Knight are a complete abstraction. A personal possession of Arthas that he feels is harmed by his actions. He heads to Northrend disregarding both his father's wishes and what is the wiser move because he's entirely short of influences who'd guide him otherwise. When he's being recalled, which we've both talked about is the correct move both for his kingdom and for him personally and especially for the men there, he refuses because it's not what he wants and he wouldn't be satisfied with that outcome.

    This isn't some subtle subtext, he says it outright after burning their only way home and trapping them forward so he can achieve his goal and later ditches Muradin - "Damn the men, nothing will keep me from having my revenge". From Stratholme on, it's about him, the kingdom is just the thing he justifies himself with and every time the interests of that kingdom or its men clash with what he personally wants to do - i.e avenge himself on Mal'gais, the latter wins out. This is before he gets the sword. Arthas does not save his men from making a choice out of compassion - he prevents them and himself from making what would have been the viable choice to save the kingdom because it's not what he would want to do. This is said explicitly - "If they leave, I'll never defeat Mal'ganis." It's true that his behaviour once he has the sword is an escalation of this, but only in scale, not in kind - it's in extending this sense of entitlement. The Arthas who puts on his father's crown and then hunts his people for sport or laughs over finding out the urn he's using has his father's ashes in it is exercising the same kingly prerogative over his possessions that he did as a paladin when he stranded them on Northrend to pursue a doomed cause that got everyone there killed, just without the pretext.

    Danuser's comments are entirely on the money and they're one of the few things that give me hope that they won't entirely cock up this character - Arthas without agency, without these traits that tie him to his background is not Arthas at all. It's why the Lich King in Wrath often fell flat - the book shows us Arthas taking agency for every decision and killing Ner'zhul to become sole Lich King, but he acts more like a generic baddie than he ever does the stylish, vindictive prick who laughs over every power and taboo he runs over on his path during WC3.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2021-03-30 at 01:36 PM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  16. #376
    Quote Originally Posted by Josyel View Post
    Yes, we should kill everyone that coughs because they can spread COVID-19.

    ... do you understand why it was wrong now?
    Idk where you are from, but remind me not to go there, because wherever it is covid turns people into fucking zombies.
    or are you trying to compare covid to a fucking zombie plague?

  17. #377
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    Idk where you are from, but remind me not to go there, because wherever it is covid turns people into fucking zombies.
    or are you trying to compare covid to a fucking zombie plague?
    I think you missed the point. He's trying to say that killing people is wrong no matter what the twisted justification is. Arthas was wrong to kill people without knowing how to properly deal with the situation. He was irrational and would not listen to anything but his blood thirsty inclination to murder an entire city.

  18. #378
    Quote Originally Posted by tommyhil622 View Post
    I think you missed the point. He's trying to say that killing people is wrong no matter what the twisted justification is. Arthas was wrong to kill people without knowing how to properly deal with the situation. He was irrational and would not listen to anything but his blood thirsty inclination to murder an entire city.
    If only Anduin was there, he could fart out light bubble and cure everyone. Jesus, how could warcraft universe exist without him.

  19. #379
    Quote Originally Posted by tommyhil622 View Post
    I think you missed the point. He's trying to say that killing people is wrong no matter what the twisted justification is. Arthas was wrong to kill people without knowing how to properly deal with the situation. He was irrational and would not listen to anything but his blood thirsty inclination to murder an entire city.
    You ever had a pet? A dog, a cat?
    You ever had to ethunize them, because their lives are nearing an end? Maybe they are so old that their organs are giving out, their body is shutting down and life is pain.
    maybe your pet got hit by a car, and there is no chance for survival, ever breath is unbearble anguish.
    and so you kill them, quickly and painlessly to put them out of their misery, and to save them from a long and tortuous death.

    Who is the real monster? the "bloodthirsty murderer who gave your pet the instant painless death" or "The man who sits there watching this poor animal suffer a living hell as their entire body is nothing but a husk of anguish because they refuse to do the merciful thing and ends its life"

    I myself have had 2 cats, one of them developed cancer, uncurable, we took her in because she was yowling all the time crying, we were confused why, she calmed down when we cuddled with her, but we were concenred. they said we had to put her down that day, or we could keep her for another few months and have her still, but she would be in pain and the pain would only grow more and more as time went on.

    Am i a monster for telling them to put her out of her missery?
    or would it have been better for me to subject her to months of pain and torture just so i could call myself a saint "refusing to end a life!" so she could die by "natural causes"

    You are driving through the back woods. Your headlights illuminate a deer in the road, their body crumpled and covered in blood, it seems it got hit by a semi a bit back and is stuck in the road wailing and twitching.

    Your friend gets out of the car, grabs a rock, and in a single hit ends its life.

    That is what people call a mercy killing.

    It seems you do not comprehend the idea.
    Last edited by FelPlague; 2021-03-30 at 01:57 PM.

  20. #380
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    You ever had a pet? A dog, a cat?
    You ever had to ethunize them, because their lives are nearing an end? Maybe they are so old that their organs are giving out, their body is shutting down and life is pain.
    maybe your pet got hit by a car, and there is no chance for survival, ever breath is unbearble anguish.
    and so you kill them, quickly and painlessly to put them out of their misery, and to save them from a long and tortuous death.

    Who is the real monster? the "bloodthirsty murderer who gave your pet the instant painless death" or "The man who sits there watching this poor animal suffer a living hell as their entire body is nothing but a husk of anguish because they refuse to do the merciful thing and ends its life"

    You are driving through the back woods. Your headlights illuminate a deer in the road, their body crumpled and covered in blood, it seems it got hit by a semi a bit back and is stuck in the road wailing and twitching.

    Your friend gets out of the car, grabs a rock, and in a single hit ends its life.

    That is what people call a mercy killing.

    It seems you do not comprehend the idea.
    I'm sorry but i can't see the comparison between a single pet and an entire city where we have no idea that every single person was infected with the plague and that we had 100% certainty that they would all become zombies.

    A pet isn't a human no matter how pet owners try to make it so. Humans require consent, pets don't. You can't kill people just because you think they need to die. Does work that way. Only murderers think that way, like Arthas.

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