Why was Arthas wrong?

[FelPlague]

I'm sorry but i can't see the comparison between a single pet and an entire city where we have no idea that every single person was infected with the plague and that we had 100% certainty that they would all become zombies.

A pet isn't a human no matter how pet owners try to make it so. Humans require consent, pets don't. You can't kill people just because you think they need to die. Does work that way. Only murderers think that way, like Arthas.

Lets hope some day you do not need to make that choice, but for now it is obvious you have never had to make that choice.
You will some day, be it your mother or father on their death bed, unable to speak, move, emote, you will need to decide to pull the plug, or leave them there a vegetable.

Then, are you a bloodthirsty murderer?
A mercy killing is just that, mercy. To end someones life who is already over, but to do so in a merciful manor.

Most of the time yes humans require consent, but sometimes it is for their better that you do not. Because humans very rarely know what is best for them.

There is a reason why in most tales humans are common to plea for help when a wound is obviously fatal, and helping them will only prolong their death and suffering.

There was 100% certainty they would all become zombies, we know that, he knew that, they all knew that, there is not a single person who was there, that knew what was going to happen, that did not know they were all doomed.

Just none of them wanted to be the one to pick up the rock.

[tommyhil622]

Lets hope some day you do not need to make that choice, but for now it is obvious you have never had to make that choice.
You will some day, be it your mother or father on their death bed, unable to speak, move, emote, you will need to decide to pull the plug, or leave them there a vegetable.

Then, are you a bloodthirsty murderer?

Unfortunately you're making a lot of assumptions so I won't get into the personal territory.

Again bringing it back to Arthas. He had no right to decide the outcome of an entire city. He didn't even have the authority either. He acted without mercy and without a single thought of what his actions would do. He decided in a moment the lives of an entire city on a whim. He was wrong. There's no real discussion here to be made. There's no justification on his actions.

[FelPlague]

Unfortunately you're making a lot of assumptions so I won't get into the personal territory.

Again bringing it back to Arthas. He had no right to decided the outcome of an entire city. He didn't have the authority either. He acted without mercy and without a single thought of what his actions would do. He decided in a moment the lives of an entire city on a whim. He was wrong. There's no real discussion here to be made. There's no justification on his actions.

He did have the right.
He did have the authority
He acted with the upmost mercy, he gave them a quick a painless death instead of one of suffering and torture.
he did not decide on a moment, on a whim, he was thinking of possabilities the entire time on his way to the city, he knew that it was there, he just hoped he would make it in time to stop them, or atleast save some, but when he arrived he realized it was far too late.
He was not wrong, he was right, if he did not do that, all the people he gave a quick death, would have died anyways, but a slow and painful one.

You are wrong
get the fuck over it.


When you arrive to that deer in the road, you do not let it sit there broken and dying for hours while you try to be the "better man" and think of maybe you could find a emergency vet, but they are closed this late and its a couple miles away, you take the rock and you put it out of its misery.

be a fucking man, or a fucking woman, be a human, and when you see suffering that will not end, you stop it whatever way you can.

There is countless ways to end misery, to end suffering, but when someone is doomed to death, with no other solution, the choice is to end it.


When a persons life is going to be sufferage it is up to them to decide.
but when this sufferage is not only going to be them, but also others, then it is for others to decide.

[huth]

He did have the right.
He did have the authority
He acted with the upmost mercy, he gave them a quick a painless death instead of one of suffering and torture.

No, he didn't. To any of those. He neither had the right which at most his father would, and even that is questionable, nor the authority, since he is at that point merely a Paladin and not the highest ranking around, nor did he grant a quick and painless death or act with mercy. Quite the opposite, he did it entirely out of self-assured pride and lacked the means of providing painless death.

he did not decide on a moment, on a whim, he was thinking of possabilities the entire time on his way to the city, he knew that it was there, he just hoped he would make it in time to stop them, or atleast save some, but when he arrived he realized it was far too late.

That he thought about possibilities does not change that he acted on a whim. He did not have sufficient information to "realize it was to late". He went straight from "the grain is here" to "i must kill everybody".

He was wrong and he did not grant people a quick painless death. He did not have the ability to grant people a quick, painless death in the first place.

Get over yourself. Arthas was not in a position to make this decision for people who were, at that point, still in possession of their faculties, nor did he make any actual plans for the possibility of arriving to late to prevent the tragedy.

[Karreck]

He did have the right.
He did have the authority

He did not have the right to kill innocent people, regardless of circumstances. Being a Prince does not give the right to decide who lives and who dies.

He acted with the upmost mercy, he gave them a quick a painless death instead of one of suffering and torture.

Getting smacked by a warhammer is not quick and painless. Same with being stabbed multiple times. He was not cleanly executing people, he was slaughtering them, most of whom were likely terrified and afraid of the soldiers coming to kill them.

His men also set fires to burn down houses with people trapped inside. Being burned alive is hardly quick or painless.

When you arrive to that deer in the road, you do not let it sit there broken and dying for hours while you try to be the "better man" and think of maybe you could find a emergency vet, but they are closed this late and its a couple miles away, you take the rock and you put it out of its misery.

If you found a dying man on the side of the road and crushed his head with a rock, you would be charged with murder. Why? Mercy killing is still murder in the eyes of law.
Animals =/= Man

be a fucking man, or a fucking woman, be a human, and when you see suffering that will not end, you stop it whatever way you can.

Many citizens of Stratholme that Arthas and his men murdered were showing no signs of suffering or illness.

There is countless ways to end misery, to end suffering, but when someone is doomed to death, with no other solution, the choice is to end it.

It is not for others to make that choice.

When a persons life is going to be sufferage it is up to them to decide.
but when this sufferage is not only going to be them, but also others, then it is for others to decide.

Wrong. Absolutely wrong. The individual person decides from themselves if their suffering is too much, not others. Only if the person is incapacitated are others allowed to make that decision, and that was not the case in Stratholme.

You are wrong
get the fuck over it.

Take your own advice.

[huth]

If you found a dying man on the side of the road and crushed his head with a rock, you would be charged with murder. Why? Mercy killing is still murder in the eyes of law.
Animals =/= Man

Even whether killing/letting die somebody who is suffering from a debilitating untreatable condition and has openly stated they want to die is morally or legally acceptable is still a very controversial question.

When you're just finding them and do not have the proper knowledge what their actual situation is? Not a chance.

[Alatie]

For purging stratholme... I mean whats the better option than if he hadn't done such, what alternate should've happened??? / was a more rational / moral decision

Arthas was right Uthur was a cunt and the reason for the first Lich King.

[tommyhil622]

He did have the right.
He did have the authority
He acted with the upmost mercy, he gave them a quick a painless death instead of one of suffering and torture.
he did not decide on a moment, on a whim, he was thinking of possabilities the entire time on his way to the city, he knew that it was there, he just hoped he would make it in time to stop them, or atleast save some, but when he arrived he realized it was far too late.
He was not wrong, he was right, if he did not do that, all the people he gave a quick death, would have died anyways, but a slow and painful one.

You are wrong
get the fuck over it.


When you arrive to that deer in the road, you do not let it sit there broken and dying for hours while you try to be the "better man" and think of maybe you could find a emergency vet, but they are closed this late and its a couple miles away, you take the rock and you put it out of its misery.

be a fucking man, or a fucking woman, be a human, and when you see suffering that will not end, you stop it whatever way you can.

There is countless ways to end misery, to end suffering, but when someone is doomed to death, with no other solution, the choice is to end it.


When a persons life is going to be sufferage it is up to them to decide.
but when this sufferage is not only going to be them, but also others, then it is for others to decide.

Not sure why you keep comparing humans to animals, you have a distorted view on this which is the at the very center why this entire post is completely wrong. Also makes sense why you think Arthas did the right thing. For some reason you think animals and humans are the same which is an entirely different problem that will make you unable to understand the value of human life and consent.

He did not have the authority. An action like that would need to have the consent from the King of Lorderon (he was not the King of lorderon). And the King would never grant him the authority to wantonly kill people.

He did not know with certainty that the only recourse was to kill them. His men burned buildings with people alive in it. He did not know that every citizen ate from the contaminated food. He did not know who actually was contaminated. He didn't know how long he had before they converted. He ignored every sane person telling him not to do what he was about to do and did it anyway.

Once again you keep brining up "mercy killing", you cannot kill a human being like you kill an animal. No human has the right to decide the fate of another regardless of what twisted logic that human uses to justify. That's the logic of a murderer or a serial killer. One who thinks they have the authority to take life because they think it's "mercy".

Not sure what else to say on the matter other than you have to realize the distinction of human life from animals.

[Stormdash]

For purging stratholme... I mean whats the better option than if he hadn't done such, what alternate should've happened??? / was a more rational / moral decision

Because they didn't know enough to know if it would help (which it objectively did not. if you've swung by Stratholme or the EPL in the past 12 years or so). Doesn't get more morally abrupt than murdering sick and frightened people on a hunch.

[Josyel]

He did have the right.

He was not wrong, he was right, if he did not do that, all the people he gave a quick death, would have died anyways, but a slow and painful one.

You are wrong
get the fuck over it.


When you arrive to that deer in the road, you do not let it sit there broken and dying for hours while you try to be the "better man" and think of maybe you could find a emergency vet, but they are closed this late and its a couple miles away, you take the rock and you put it out of its misery.

be a fucking man, or a fucking woman, be a human, and when you see suffering that will not end, you stop it whatever way you can.

There is countless ways to end misery, to end suffering, but when someone is doomed to death, with no other solution, the choice is to end it.


When a persons life is going to be sufferage it is up to them to decide.
but when this sufferage is not only going to be them, but also others, then it is for others to decide.

You need help. Go to a therapist ASAP.

And please, never even think about working on a hospital. Thats now how real life works.

Infracted.

- - - Updated - - -

Not sure why you keep comparing humans to animals, you have a distorted view on this which is the at the very center why this entire post is completely wrong. Also makes sense why you think Arthas did the right thing. For some reason you think animals and humans are the same which is an entirely different problem that will make you unable to understand the value of human life and consent.


He did not know with certainty that the only recourse was to kill them. His men burned buildings with people alive in it. He did not know that every citizen ate from the contaminated food. He did not know who actually was contaminated. He didn't know how long he had before they converted. He ignored every sane person telling him not to do what he was about to do and did it anyway.

Once again you keep brining up "mercy killing", you cannot kill a human being like you kill an animal. No human has the right to decide the fate of another regardless of what twisted logic that human uses to justify. That's the logic of a murderer or a serial killer. One who thinks they have the authority to take life because they think it's "mercy".

Exactly. And then people here keep saying "Oooh but Dreadlords teleporting, warcraft is a magical world!". Yes, it is. Thats why theres healers and priests and every kind of healing magic that could've worked.

He could quarantine the area. He could send healers. Hell, he could give swords to the entire population and made them "mercy killing" people that turned into zombies. You cant judge an entire city and tell them all are contaminated. Do every people ate those contaminated grains? Even rich ones ate the same thing as poor peasants?

[Deneios]

Seems like this thread is full of bible thumpers.

Lets say you are on the ww1 battlefield and you see your comrade suffering serious mustard gas or chlorine gas attack. His skin pocked by boils by the chemical, blinded permanently, coughing blood and drowning in his own fluids. He is in so much pain he can only scream with whats left of his lungs.
What do you do? Let him suffer for the day he has or do end his misery with bullet to the head?

[huth]

Seems like this thread is full of bible thumpers.

Lets say you are on the ww1 battlefield and you see your comrade suffering serious mustard gas or chlorine gas attack. His skin pocked by boils by the chemical, blinded permanently, coughing blood and drowning in his own fluids. He is in so much pain he can only scream with whats left of his lungs.
What do you do? Let him suffer for the day he has or do end his misery with bullet to the head?

Only because at that point there is both no chance of rescue and they aren't physically capable of commenting on the matter anymore. That doesn't apply to the people of Stratholme, who may or may not have been infected.

You're also forgetting that one is a soldier, while the other mostly involves civilians.

Besides, i'd expect it from the Bible Thumpers to support his actions, not condemn them.

[Aucald]

Real world religions aren't permitted topics in this or any other thread - let's drop the talk about "Bible thumpers" and return to the actual subject of the thread.

[FelPlague]

You need help. Go to a therapist ASAP.

And please, never even think about working on a hospital. Thats now how real life works.

Infracted.

That is exactly how real life hospitals work.


If you are at the hospital and your grandparent is on the machine and did not deem in life if they wanted to have the plug pulled or not, it is up to their children when and if they should pull the plug.

- - - Updated - - -

Because they didn't know enough to know if it would help (which it objectively did not. if you've swung by Stratholme or the EPL in the past 12 years or so). Doesn't get more morally abrupt than murdering sick and frightened people on a hunch.

Except it did help.
if he had not done it, the undead would have been so much that lorderan would have fallen right away.
Yes the city is still infested, but it is drastically lower then it would have been if they did literally nothing.

[huth]

That is exactly how real life hospitals work.


If you are at the hospital and your grandparent is on the machine and did not deem in life if they wanted to have the plug pulled or not, it is up to their children when and if they should pull the plug.

If the patient is deemed to have no reasonable hope of recovery by medical professionals. This is also at least partially because those machines tend to be expensive and most people can't really afford to keep them running if there's no point to it. You can't just walk in and ask them to disconnect your grandparents because you don't feel like it or have some personal beef with them.

Same goes for Deneios' soldier: the guy is for all intents and purposes already dying, your only option is to speed it up or not.

Both cases have in common that death is the only probable outcome.

Arthas' situation was not such. He didn't know how much of the city was actually infected or whether killing them was the only option, nor did he try to attempt anything else or seek counsel with others, like, say, Jaina and Uther.

Except it did help.
if he had not done it, the undead would have been so much that lorderan would have fallen right away.
Yes the city is still infested, but it is drastically lower then it would have been if they did literally nothing.

And a lot higher than if he had properly explained things to Jaina and Uther, asked them for help and advice and generally hadn't acted in ways that cost him a large part of the available forces to handle the situation. Especially the Paladins, who would likely have been exceptionally useful in this situation.

It's also far from certain if he achieved any relevant reduction, and your video shows nothing to contradict that. Besides, in engaging in the purge he did a leaping jump right into Mal'ganis trap, which certainly didn't help things either and nearly lead to the destruction of Azeroth.

[Karreck]

That is exactly how real life hospitals work.


If you are at the hospital and your grandparent is on the machine and did not deem in life if they wanted to have the plug pulled or not, it is up to their children when and if they should pull the plug.

The only ones who have the right to "pull the plug" is whoever has medical power of attorney OR a court has determined can make those life and death decisions for the patient. And even then, a medical professional has to show that there is little to no hope for recovery.

A prince with anger issues doesn't get to walk into a patients room, decide "hE gOt tHe pLaGuE!", and crush his head with a warhammer.

[baskev]

For purging stratholme... I mean whats the better option than if he hadn't done such, what alternate should've happened??? / was a more rational / moral decision

Thats the whole problem. In universe he could have waited to heal them, maybe sort them sick/infected out. (lore answer).

But answer for us as gamers. He could not do anything. back then clearing someone from it's undead state or even "freeing" them was not possible.
We would not know how long it would have taken for back up to arrive to sort the mess out.
If he waited. Stratholm would be full with undead.

Think of it like this. if in Game of thrones they flew/rode north and killed the night king before his army became to big they might have won.
If they redrew the wildlings way earlier they might have had more people alive etc etc.
Or in assisins creed oddesy you can choose to kill a family of survivers of a plague ( even though you are warned they will spread it). If you do, later you will find out the plague has spread across greece.


So in the end. He did a moral grey thing. yes he killed civilians but he saved the rest of them. It was the most rational. cut of the foot to save the rest of the leg.

[tommyhil622]

That is exactly how real life hospitals work.


If you are at the hospital and your grandparent is on the machine and did not deem in life if they wanted to have the plug pulled or not, it is up to their children when and if they should pull the plug.

- - - Updated - - -



Except it did help.
if he had not done it, the undead would have been so much that lorderan would have fallen right away.
Yes the city is still infested, but it is drastically lower then it would have been if they did literally nothing.
..

The video doesn't help here.

As for the hospital analogy. It's yet another example that doesn't apply to what Arthas.

There's a disconnect with every example you have made vs what Arthas did. There were hundreds of people he decided their collective face. These people were alive. They weren't in their death beds. He didn't' know what state they were in. He didn't know the % of them who were infected or not infected. He didn't seek console or advice of those around him (Uther, Jaina, and Captains of the guard). He openly dismissed and used an authority he didn't have to carry out an irrational outcome which end up playing into the hands of not only the lich king but the burning legion. Essentially his actions only favored the forces of evil instead of the people he deemed give a clean death.

1. He didn't know how many were infected.
2. He didn't know how long they had before some of the population were infected.
3. He didn't explore other options (magic, quarantine, planning, time etc).
4. He ignored the console of his friends and allies without discussion.
5. Misused his authority and used authority he didn't have.
6. Murdered innocent people and gave them no choice.
7. Instructed his own men to burn buildings with people alive in them.

[Jastall]

It's indeed his insecurities and inferiority complex showing, that he harbored for a long time. Especially when confronted with more experienced folks. One could spin it positively by saying that pulling rank and giving a clear order he tries to take all the responsibility for what he feels must be done, sparing his men from having to make this horrible decision. Probably not what the story was going for, but it makes somewhat sense. It's similar to destroying the boats in Northrend. By doing that he eliminates the responsibility of his men men having to choose between following him or their king's call home.



Yep, this is the issue. He took protecting his people extremely personal and every death through the plague physically hurt him and he blamed himself for it, leading to him also starting to consider himself the only one able to deal with it. It's this fixation and the endless compassion he has for his people that Mal'ganis and the Lich King use against him in the end. He was ready to sacrifice everything for his country, his integrity and concience, life and even his soul when he took up what he thought was the only weapon to save his people.
Thanks to the corruption of Frostmourne he then began to transfer these feelings onto the undead and even began to view his former enemy Kel'thuzad as a trusted friend. His mind was throughly fucked at this point, which makes it really hard for me to take it seriously when Danuser now claims that Arthas was still in control...



Yeah... no argument there. He could have carried a sign with "The end is nigh" and he would have been only slightly less believable... I mean he obviously knew about the future... so telling Terenas and Antonidas about the plague might have been a smart choice... and even if that did not work he could have attacked the delivery of the infected grain himself to stop the plague in it's tracks...

Arthas flees responsibility and facing the consequences of his actions- it's one of his primary character traits and flaws. It's telling that the final argument Ner'zul gives him before Terenas is murdered is "you no longer have to sacrifice for your people". Because Arthas never wanted to and never gave a toss about his people beyond the most abstract definition and the part where they were his. Even the soldiers who fought for him at the edge of the world while their country was ravaged by zombies were expendables pawns to his revenge on the one who personally slighted him.

As @Super Dickmann said, you're interpreting the character very charitably- too much so if you ask me. He never actually shows compassion once, and instead every time his motives are stated from Stratholme onwards it's about his vengeance boner and wounded pride. The same wounded pride that caused him to try and pull rank on Uther at the first sign of disagreement, and then lash out and tell him to get lost when that doesn't work. The same one that caused him to chase Mal'ganis to a land he didn't know against all sense and remain there even against direct orders. It even continues after he gets turned into a DK, for example making Sylvanas suffer because she annoyed him is pure Arthas, just twisted even more due to the influence of the sword and the Lich King.

Arthas's character flaws were absolutely instrumental in his turn to darkness. Lore says the Lich King picked him as his prospective champion well before the plague hit, and it wasn't by random chance, but because Arthas had the perfect combination of traits that would ensure his own downfall while making him a useful servant once harnessed. To sweep said flaws under the rug or attempt to contextualize them as misled virtues IMO misses the entire point of the character.

[Icaras]

He wasn't.

This pretty much. Sure Uther and Jaina disagreed with Arthas, but he had a very good point and I personally kind of agree with him. Is it horrible to go around culling the whole city? Yes!

But it's still something he's doing for a greater good kind of deal, losing one city to ensure the safety of lordaeron (hell, kind of the whole world, as if lordaeron had fallen to the undead plague, it would have been so much harder for the rest of the world to stop it)


Stratholme, IMHO, wasn't the turning point for Arthas, that was when he choose to chase after Mal'Ganis.

I feel this is backed up with his portrayal in the caverns of time dungeon, as he still acts like a heroic paladin throughout the dungeon, and it's only really when Mal'Ganis starts taunting him that he starts acting darker (And he's sadly not quite smart enough to realize just how badly he was getting manipualted after he arrived in Northrend. He lucked out a bit to have Murdrin show up, but then was too stupid to listen to him and we all know what happened after that)