Since #nochanges is kaput, can we have Dual spec please?

[NineSpine]

What do you think is the bigger gold sink? 1000g once or 50g 20 times during an expansion? lol

Making up numbers doesn't make a case, but putting that aside...

"Bigger" or "more effective"? The ongoing one is far more effective because it continually drains money from the economy. There's a stability factor that one-time gold sinks don't help. In fact, big one time gold sink could have a negative effect on stability at the outset.

[Kralljin]

Dual spec made the playing field much better for healers and tanks. I didnt play healer until wrath where i was able to farm on my healer

...so what exactly stopped you from farming on alts?

Disregarding that there is a huge line of difference between "not everything is perfect about the old game" to "we should inject modern elements into the game and hope it doesn't have any negative consequences!".

[ClassicPeon]

No, it makes the playing field better *for you*. I don't want to be expected to heal on my tank. Stop confusing "Good for me" with "Good for everyone".

What? loL

I dont think anyone is going to expect anything fom you mate

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Wrath was also the first expansion where you couldn't have a spec really that was a go-to spec for healing and good in the open world for farming and stuff. In wrath, if you were farming in the open world as a healer spec you really felt the disadvantage. So dual spec made sense there.

In TBC, and also in vanilla you could easily do stuff in the open world with your healer spec without any downside or much slowed dps. All you had to do was equip DPS gear and that's it. Druids were the best at that, then paladins, shamans and priests.

Thats literally the other way around mate

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Making up numbers doesn't make a case, but putting that aside...

"Bigger" or "more effective"? The ongoing one is far more effective because it continually drains money from the economy. There's a stability factor that one-time gold sinks don't help. In fact, big one time gold sink could have a negative effect on stability at the outset.

"making up numbers"

Dual spec's cost was 1000g. Do you think most people respecced more then 20 times in an expansion? Probably not

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...so what exactly stopped you from farming on alts?

Disregarding that there is a huge line of difference between "not everything is perfect about the old game" to "we should inject modern elements into the game and hope it doesn't have any negative consequences!".

Its going to have the same negative concequence it did on classic. Literally a major lack of healers and tanks.

The only reason we had tanks for dungeons in classic(myself included here, i was a warrior) is that you could easily tank dungeons as fury. Go ahead and try that in tbc.

We had shadow priests healing our raids more often then not becuase peopel couldnt be assed playing a healer spec

[keelr]

Do you walk into mexican restaurants, ask for polish food, and then say it is annoying when they suggest you go to the polish restaurant?

This is maybe the worst analogy ive ever read. What you were searching for is that i go into a restaurant asking for a tomato soup. They say their tomato soup is sweet, but i rly want to try this tomato soup, but i can't stand sweet tomato soup so i ask for salt next to it.

[Kralljin]

Its going to have the same negative concequence it did on classic. Literally a major lack of healers and tanks.

The only reason we had tanks for dungeons in classic(myself included here, i was a warrior) is that you could easily tank dungeons as fury. Go ahead and try that in tbc.

We had shadow priests healing our raids more often then not becuase peopel couldnt be assed playing a healer spec

No, it just shows how shortsighted you approach this whole thing.

Sure, you can say, "there will be a lot more tanks!", but you know what also going to be a lot more?
Prot Pallies.
Lots of them.

And those sure as shit don't want their "regular dungeon group", they want to AoE that down, after all, that's why they're prot and reap the advantages of this.
And there you will have to deal with a similiar fallout as you did with the Melee / spellcleave during Classic.

Prot Pallies enable the AoE meta, the more you have of those, the more common the AoE Meta will be, with all its consequences.

Another issue you'll have to deal with is that you'll lower the overall difficulty of TBC, because you can now just adjust your number of tanks / healer on the fly.
Boss can be done with fewer healers? Oh well, some of them should rub their hands together and switch dps!
A healer is slacking? Let's just switch a dps to heal and try again!

Furthermore, it's going to exert pressure onto every hybrid to have a 2nd spec for those situation at the ready, this will go even further where you'll likely see the expectation of a hybrid such as Enhance having an Elemental spec at the ready, in case an Ele doesn't show up, or vice versa.
That applies to virtually any hybrid and also comes with the obvious expectation that you'll collect gear for your 2nd spec.

Add to this, you'll basically kill Prot Pally as a main spec, there is no reason to have a "main Prot pally" in your guild when dual spec exists.
Have a Ret / Holy grab some Prot gear, respec Prot for Trash / certain boss fights, else stick to Ret / Holy, Feral / Prot Warr are much better suited for the rest anyway.
This, of course, also comes with the expectation that a lot of Pallies also have some Prot gear and Prot 2nd spec.

Putting aside that every Pally can just AoE farm stuff whenever they feel like it (which is really bad for economy), whereas without dual spec, it's largely limited to people that actually stick to Prot.

Lastly, you'll even have some people taking a 2nd spec just to improve their performance on some bosses, Warlocks the prime example.
They will likely consider going Affliction on a council boss, or an AoE spec on some AoE heavy boss.

Taking into account the existence of some situational but extremely powerful talents, such as nether protection, you'll further open the door to potentially trivializing certain encounters.
I can absolutely see that Warlocks will have a 2nd spec with Nether protection at the ready for certain encounters, simply because it's such a broken talent in situations where you can take advantage of it.
Especially when we also take note that dps taking less damage, means you might also cut healers.

And the last thing TBC needs is more reason why Warlocks are superior to other classes.

And if any of those predictions about the "expectation to have a dual spec suited for raiding" comes true, one of the major advantages of dual spec, to have both PvP and PvE spec, goes right down the drain for a lot of people.

Those are the potential pitfalls of introducing *new* mechanics into a game that was not designed around it.
Changing existing mechanics is not the same thing as adding new mechanics.

[NineSpine]

What? loL

I dont think anyone is going to expect anything fom you mate

If you think that being able to hit one button to switch spec on the fly won't affect expectation to play multiple specs, you may be physically incapable of a good faith discussion.

Dual spec's cost was 1000g. Do you think most people respecced more then 20 times in an expansion? Probably not

Yes. 20 times is less than once per month in BC. If you switch to do some arena and then back, that's two respecs alone. What a ludicrous hill to die on.

I'd say it is "interesting" that you avoided the substance of my post, but it isn't interesting (or surprising).

Its going to have the same negative concequence it did on classic. Literally a major lack of healers and tanks.

The only reason we had tanks for dungeons in classic(myself included here, i was a warrior) is that you could easily tank dungeons as fury. Go ahead and try that in tbc.

We had shadow priests healing our raids more often then not becuase peopel couldnt be assed playing a healer spec

It's really not as big of an issue as you are pretending it is, and your assumption that everyone wants to play every role their class can play is misguided in the first place.

[ClassicPeon]

No, it just shows how shortsighted you approach this whole thing.

Sure, you can say, "there will be a lot more tanks!", but you know what also going to be a lot more?
Prot Pallies.
Lots of them.

And those sure as shit don't want their "regular dungeon group", they want to AoE that down, after all, that's why they're prot and reap the advantages of this.
And there you will have to deal with a similiar fallout as you did with the Melee / spellcleave during Classic.

Prot Pallies enable the AoE meta, the more you have of those, the more common the AoE Meta will be, with all its consequences.

Another issue you'll have to deal with is that you'll lower the overall difficulty of TBC, because you can now just adjust your number of tanks / healer on the fly.
Boss can be done with fewer healers? Oh well, some of them should rub their hands together and switch dps!
A healer is slacking? Let's just switch a dps to heal and try again!

Furthermore, it's going to exert pressure onto every hybrid to have a 2nd spec for those situation at the ready, this will go even further where you'll likely see the expectation of a hybrid such as Enhance having an Elemental spec at the ready, in case an Ele doesn't show up, or vice versa.
That applies to virtually any hybrid and also comes with the obvious expectation that you'll collect gear for your 2nd spec.

Add to this, you'll basically kill Prot Pally as a main spec, there is no reason to have a "main Prot pally" in your guild when dual spec exists.
Have a Ret / Holy grab some Prot gear, respec Prot for Trash / certain boss fights, else stick to Ret / Holy, Feral / Prot Warr are much better suited for the rest anyway.
This, of course, also comes with the expectation that a lot of Pallies also have some Prot gear and Prot 2nd spec.

Putting aside that every Pally can just AoE farm stuff whenever they feel like it (which is really bad for economy), whereas without dual spec, it's largely limited to people that actually stick to Prot.

Lastly, you'll even have some people taking a 2nd spec just to improve their performance on some bosses, Warlocks the prime example.
They will likely consider going Affliction on a council boss, or an AoE spec on some AoE heavy boss.

Taking into account the existence of some situational but extremely powerful talents, such as nether protection, you'll further open the door to potentially trivializing certain encounters.
I can absolutely see that Warlocks will have a 2nd spec with Nether protection at the ready for certain encounters, simply because it's such a broken talent in situations where you can take advantage of it.
Especially when also take note that dps taking less damage, means you might also cut healers.

And the last thing TBC needs is more reason why Warlocks are superior to other classes.

Those are the potential pitfalls of introducing *new* mechanics into a game that was not designed around it.
Changing existing mechanics is not the same thing as adding new mechanics.

Dude you dont have to write a wall of text. This shit is literally unreadable.

There isnt going to be as many prot pallies running around as you think. And healers is going to be the real problem.

As for the rest you can literally just do that now. Just port out, respec and port back in. As far as i remember you needed to be in a resting area to switch dual spec anyway, so its literally the same thing.

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It's really not as big of an issue as you are pretending it is, and your assumption that everyone wants to play every role their class can play is misguided in the first place.

Ah. So... no issue then? HAHAHA. You just fucked your own point

[NineSpine]

This is maybe the worst analogy ive ever read. What you were searching for is that i go into a restaurant asking for a tomato soup. They say their tomato soup is sweet, but i rly want to try this tomato soup, but i can't stand sweet tomato soup so i ask for salt next to it.

These are two very different games with very different design principles. You want to undermine a design principles completely for convenience, so it asbolutely is like asking the mexican restaurant to make you piergoies because walking to the polish restaurant is inconvenient.

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Dude you dont have to write a wall of text. This shit is literally unreadable.

This is the saddest attempt to avoid having to address an argument I have ever seen.

There isnt going to be as many prot pallies running around as you think. And healers is going to be the real problem.

As for the rest you can literally just do that now. Just port out, respec and port back in. As far as i remember you needed to be in a resting area to switch dual spec anyway, so its literally the same thing.

The expectation that someone is going to go and just dump 100 gold to change spec for one fight might seem obvious for cutting edge, hardcore raiders. It is not going to be the expectation in the average guild.

Ah. So... no issue then? HAHAHA. You just fucked your own point

What? I said that the tank/healer shortage isn't as big an issue as you are acting like it is. That doesn't undermine my point at all. I didn't say it is a zero-effect non-issue. I said it isn't that bad, and undermining a core design principle and pushing people to play two specs even if they don't want to isn't a good solution.

[schwank05]

Dual spec totally changes the Dynamic of the game, you are no longer Belar the Resto Druid from (insert X server) you are just a Druid. And not only that there being a cost to respec makes it so you have to think twice about swapping to Tank for that one Dungeon or to Healer for this BG. You have to pick a sepc and get good on that spec it was a much better time and design.

[ClassicPeon]

.

The expectation that someone is going to go and just dump 100 gold to change spec for one fight might seem obvious for cutting edge, hardcore raiders. It is not going to be the expectation in the average guild.

You guys keep moving your goalposts for this one.

Either its a non issue and making gold as a healer is really easy or switching specs is a hazzle. Pick one

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Dual spec totally changes the Dynamic of the game, you are no longer Belar the Resto Druid from (insert X server) you are just a Druid. And not only that there being a cost to respec makes it so you have to think twice about swapping to Tank for that one Dungeon or to Healer for this BG. You have to pick a sepc and get good on that spec it was a much better time and design.

There isnt going to be a belor the resto druid without it

[Kralljin]

Dude you dont have to write a wall of text. This shit is literally unreadable.

Has Paragraphs, has punctation marks, please elaborate what makes it "literally unreable" to you.

Personally, i think you just don't want to deal with arguements and handwave them aside.

There isnt going to be as many prot pallies running around as you think.

If there is one i can say with a great certainty, then that specs which enable extremely efficient strats are very popular.

Putting aside that with dual spec, virtually any Pally can be a Prot Pally, so the investment isn't even that huge.

And healers is going to be the real problem.

No, it won't, at least in comparison to tanks.

Healers never were as much of an issue as tanks because you actually needed a decent amount of them relative to the group size, for 3-4 dps, you'll have one healer.
Whereas with tanks, it's completely skewed, you need one to fill a 5man dungeon group, but only two for a 25man raid, despite from a numerical standpoint, you should need 4-6 tanks as well.

This is one of the reasons why tanks have been rarer, because you don't need as many for raiding, disregarding that tanks are outright useless in another branch of the game, which is PvP, whereas there healers are absolutely essential.

As for the rest you can literally just do that now. Just port out, respec and port back in. As far as i remember you needed to be in a resting area to switch dual spec anyway, so its literally the same thing.

That's not even something people are doing in Classic.

And no, you never needed to be in a rested era for dual spec, that's MoP talents.

[NineSpine]

You guys keep moving your goalposts for this one.

Either its a non issue and making gold as a healer is really easy or switching specs is a hazzle. Pick one

You literally aren't even making sense anymore. I don't even know which arguments of mine you are even referring to at this point because you are so obsessed with being bad faith and ignoring arguments (to the point of calling a properly formatted series of points a wall of text that you refuse to read).

I never said anything was a "non-issue".

[ClassicPeon]

Has Paragraphs, has punctation marks, please elaborate what makes it "literally unreable" to you.

Personally, i think you just don't want to deal with arguements and handwave them aside.

If there is one i can say with a great certainty, then that specs which enable extremely efficient strats are very popular.

Putting aside that with dual spec, virtually any Pally can be a Prot Pally, so the investment isn't even that huge.

No, it won't, at least in comparison to tanks.

Healers never were as much of an issue as tanks because you actually needed a decent amount of them relative to the group size, for 3-4 dps, you'll have one healer.
Whereas with tanks, it's completely skewed, you need one to fill a 5man dungeon group, but only two for a 25man raid, despite from a numerical standpoint, you should need 4-6 tanks as well.

This is one of the reasons why tanks have been rarer, because you don't need as many for raiding, disregarding that tanks are outright useless in another branch of the game, which is PvP, whereas there healers are absolutely essential.

That's not even something people are doing in Classic.

And no, you never needed to be in a rested era for dual spec, that's MoP talents.

Oh really? Helaers arent a problem? I dont know what server you are on but on mine we have been lacking healers the entire expansion. Our longest staying healer is getting funded a respec after each raid(literally from shadow -> healer -> shadow) because thats the only way people want to play it.

For TBC we currently have 1 shaman healer, 1 druid and 1 priest. 3 Healers in total.

Are you even actually playing this or do you just enjoy arguing?

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You literally aren't even making sense anymore. I don't even know which arguments of mine you are even referring to at this point because you are so obsessed with being bad faith and ignoring arguments (to the point of calling a properly formatted series of points a wall of text that you refuse to read).

I never said anything was a "non-issue".

Look at the post again then because the quote is right here

Let me post it again:

The expectation that someone is going to go and just dump 100 gold to change spec for one fight might seem obvious for cutting edge, hardcore raiders. It is not going to be the expectation in the average guild.

The other guy argued it was a non issue and you responded to that conversation

[NineSpine]

Oh really? Helaers arent a problem? I dont know what server you are on but on mine we have been lacking healers the entire expansion. Our longest staying healer is getting funded a respec after each raid(literally from shadow -> healer -> shadow) because thats the only way people want to play it.

For TBC we currently have 1 shaman healer, 1 druid and 1 priest. 3 Healers in total.

Are you even actually playing this or do you just enjoy arguing?

Anecdote Andy here wants to lecture people about "logical fallacies" and "facts" vs "opinions".

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Look at the post again then because the quote is right here

Let me post it again:

Still nothing wrong with what I said. How about you replace the smug condescencion with actually explaining your argument. I promise, we will read. We aren't like you. We don't say "Oh boy, he explained himself in detail, better find an excuse to avoid that."

[Exkrementor]

Its spelled "kaputt"

Stop appropriating our culture if you cant do it right you creepy americans.

On topic: Yes, please. Give me that damn dual spec.

[Kralljin]

Oh really? Helaers arent a problem? I dont know what server you are on but on mine we have been lacking healers the entire expansion. Our longest staying healer is getting funded a respec after each raid(literally from shadow -> healer -> shadow) because thats the only way people want to play it.

Maybe it's because virtually any Warrior is basically a tank in Classic and the transition from Fury to Furyprot isn't exactly a huge deal?

[poggers]

Keep the cost, just let me have pre-set templates that I can switch to at a trainer. As a druid main I probably have 4-5 different builds in tbc if not more depending on the content

Feral Tank
Feral DPS
Moonkin
Resto
Restokin

ect..

[ClassicPeon]

Anecdote Andy here wants to lecture people about "logical fallacies" and "facts" vs "opinions".

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Still nothing wrong with what I said. How about you replace the smug condescencion with actually explaining your argument. I promise, we will read. We aren't like you. We don't say "Oh boy, he explained himself in detail, better find an excuse to avoid that."

I mean yes. I lectured yo uin that. only because you needed it though.

I already explained my argument i dont know what it is that you are missing to be honest

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Maybe it's because virtually any Warrior is basically a tank in Classic and the transition from Fury to Furyprot isn't exactly a huge deal?

Yes i explaimed this in an earlier post. Good of you to notice and agree with me.

[Kralljin]

Yes i explaimed this in an earlier post. Good of you to notice and agree with me.

I somehow doubt you mean what i mean.

Because the tank situation in Classic is in itself a rather unique case, as to a large part, neither tank gear nor spec is necessary to actually fulfill that role and the only viable tank class happens to be the by far best dps class to boot.

[NineSpine]

I mean yes. I lectured yo uin that. only because you needed it though.

I already explained my argument i dont know what it is that you are missing to be honest

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Yes i explaimed this in an earlier post. Good of you to notice and agree with me.

I'm pretty much done with you until you have the balls to respond to Kralljin's detailed and thorough post about the side effects of this change. I'm not going to entertain your lame cowardice anymore.