Why skilled player got so mad about casual getting better loot?

[Ausr]

What did I miss then? Or are you going to keep doing that thing where you declare victory but curiously refuse to explain how you won?

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I don't play retail, so I don't really care? I play classic where this isn't an issue.

But I can see you are out of arguments so all you have left is "You're just jealous of how pretty I am!"

I provided substantive game design reasons for my ideas. You have yet to bother trying that.

Go back, read the post.

Go back, read Zanadalarian Paladin's post.

Put two and two together.

Respond one last time to me saying that you finally get it.






Or keep reading this post for an ELI5:

I work hard, other guy doesn't. He gets same pay as me. Why I work still if I don't get big pay? I leave.

[jazen]

But they aren't, and that's the point.
Casuals are maxed at 200 already as well.

The "yes" is that when everyone caps at their chosen level with nowhere to go, they get bored and stop playing.
I mean, the covenant shit that is poorly itemized (but casuals care less) maxes to like 197, so yeah, they are done with gear enhancements too.
That can't be great for the game, having all levels of play effectively maxed on their gear, maybe fishing for one or two minor upgrade/sidegrades.
Letting everyone below mythic raiding (like 95% of the playerbase) to slowly work towards that is only good for the game.
People will be willing to play for longer because they still have room to grow that isn't "let's put aside 30 hours a week to mythic raid bc my full time job just isn't quite enough of a pain in the balls for me".

The "yes" is that casual players should also be able to work towards it at a slower pace.
I'm not saying let it rain from the heavens a la TF nonsense that was happening, it's about being able to be achieved over longer periods of time.
Hell, let 226s be purchased with Valor, at like 5k.
Season maxes at maybe 10k or whatever, then there; save up and buy 2 items, Joe WQ. There's something to which you can aim.
And by time you save up, new patch (hopefully) comes out and you have a brand new treadmill.

The "yes" is that splintering it into an incredibly small subgroup, which is still gearing at the same pace as casuals, only leads to more people capping, getting bored, and unsubbing at all levels, with the elite toxic few attempting to stand over others as if their status in a video game means anything, because if servers shut down tomorrow, your CE and my AOTC and Joe's WQs mean the exact same thing: nada.

What Jujudrood said.

[ellieg]

I stopped playing the game, like many others, because the gear chase was rendered unsatisfying for a large number of reasons.

At this point you are just kind of randomly raging, and I'm still the one that bullet pointed some game design arguments while all you've got is this weird complex.

This game and practically every other mmorpg has given the best gear to those who complete the most difficult content. I like this.

You think the game would be better with participation trophies. I dont. We are never going to agree. Have a good day.

[NineSpine]

Go back, read the post.

Go back, read Zanadalarian Paladin's post.

Put two and two together.

Respond one last time to me saying that you finally get it.






Or keep reading this post for an ELI5:

I work hard, other guy doesn't. He gets same pay as me. Why I work still if I don't get big pay? I leave.

Yeah, that's the bad analogy I criticized. I guess i need to ELI5 for you:

1. Nobody is arguing that doing harder content shouldn't yield some kind of better reward. The question is "What better reward should it be?"
2. Games aren't "work" and if you too rigidly gate things you dissuade players from bothering because they will feel like it is work and tune out.
3. Difficulty of content isn't the only measure of "work" even in your example. There is also time investment.

[Nite92]

I mean,
real skilled players can complete their goals even with not so good equip (very good player in normal gear can complete hc, with hc gear can complete mythic)
while casual need that gear to pass that goals....
Why skilled player got so mad about??? at the end of the day their are still better and skilled!
Or after all this wow years we still make the same error and think gear should be a reward for skill instead that a pure instrument to a goal???
What the heck a top 100-1000 player need mythic loot for, if they close raid/m+ in hc gear???
It's like a professional driver/pilot going mad the normal driver can do the same route but with autopilot and a better car....
Or football/soccer player going mad to sunday friendly bob about having better shooes and equipment....

Because loot is a reward. And by being better and putting more time into the game I'd say people deserve to have stronger characters.

[ellieg]

What Jujudrood said.

What defines a casual? Are casuals incapable of running m+? Pugging a heroic raid? Reaching 1400?

[zealo]

In my experience, it isn't the actually great players that cares a great deal about whether casual players get a shot at loot, so much as the more mid tier folks closer to the casuals in skill levels starting to feel like their achievements would be invalidated if the distance between them and more casual players shrink.

[Daedius]

Still waiting for a game design argument, rather than a "but it hurts my feelings" argument.

Doubt you'd have issue if the game had a vendor that gives away gear for free if you honestly need someone to explain to you 'why'...

[AcidicSyn]

Why do so many people think the words casual and bad are synonyms.

[Ausr]

Yeah, that's the bad analogy I criticized. I guess i need to ELI5 for you:

1. Nobody is arguing that doing harder content shouldn't yield some kind of better reward. The question is "What better reward should it be?"
2. Games aren't "work" and if you too rigidly gate things you dissuade players from bothering because they will feel like it is work and tune out.
3. Difficulty of content isn't the only measure of "work" even in your example. There is also time investment.

Just stop, it's embarrassing to me and yourself. It's obviously clear to me that you won't and never will get it, even with me explaining it like a fucking 5 year old.

[NineSpine]

This game and practically every other mmorpg has given the best gear to those who complete the most difficult content. I like this.

You think the game would be better with participation trophies. I dont. We are never going to agree. Have a good day.

Yeah, we aren't going to agree because instead of providing coherent arguments rooted in game design you just keep flailing around and yelling.

"Practically every other mmorpg" except for FF14, Guild Wars 2, and many others. Haven't played a lot of other MMORPGs, have you?

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Just stop, it's embarrassing to me and yourself. It's obviously clear to me that you won't and never will get it, even with me explaining it like a fucking 5 year old.

Oh ok, so we are going with "Shit on the table and declare victory" style of argumentation. Very convincing.

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The game might as well have a vendor that gives away gear for free if you honestly need someone to explain to you 'why'...

Right, gear dropping from content is the same as it being free. Great point, 10/10.

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In my experience, it isn't the actually great players that cares a great deal about whether casual players get a shot at loot, so much as the more mid tier folks closer to the casuals in skill levels starting to feel like their achievements would be invalidated if the distance between them and more casual players shrink.

We have a winner.

[ellieg]

Yeah, we aren't going to agree because instead of providing coherent arguments rooted in game design you just keep flailing around and yelling.

"Practically every other mmorpg" except for FF14, Guild Wars 2, and many others. Haven't played a lot of other MMORPGs, have you?

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Oh ok, so we are going with "Shit on the table and declare victory" style of argumentation. Very convincing.

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Right, gear dropping from content is the same as it being free. Great point, 10/10.

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We have a winner.

Name 1 reason why there being a vendor that gave u 226 gear would be bad? What if they timegated it to 1 piece a week so you could progress and stay subbed?

[Daedius]

Right, gear dropping from content is the same as it being free. Great point, 10/10.

Be obnoxious all you want, you've already established you want the same gear regardless of difficulty... so LFR might as well be free gear, plenty of people AFK through that content. You do you...

[NineSpine]

Be obnoxious all you want, you've already established you want the same gear regardless of difficulty... so LFR might as well be free gear, plenty of people AFK through that content.

Eh, LFR should just go away, so I'd caveat my argument with that.

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Name 1 reason why there being a vendor that gave u 226 gear would be bad? What if they timegated it to 1 piece a week so you could progress and stay subbed?

Because it feels better to get gear from content.

[ellieg]

Eh, LFR should just go away, so I'd caveat my argument with that.

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Because it feels better to get gear from content.

What if that content was to go kill 1 non elite that spawned in front of the vendor? That way even disabled ppl could get the gear.

[NineSpine]

What if that content was to go kill 1 non elite that spawned in front of the vendor? That way even disabled ppl could get the gear.

Since that barely counts as engagement with the game world, no I wouldn't want that.

If I'm wrong, it should be really easy to actually show so without trying this less-than-clever attempt to back me into a corner and strawman me.

[ellieg]

Since that barely counts as engagement with the game world, no I wouldn't want that.

If I'm wrong, it should be really easy to actually show so without trying this less-than-clever attempt to back me into a corner and strawman me.

So not enough effort to get the gear? Too easy?

[Nalam the Venom]

Just put a medal "I completed the game" in the store too. So you can pay for the game then pay to not play it. Modern gaming design logic. Games are so unfun people want to pay to not play them. They just want to show off "look I completed this".

The game is more fun woth better gear.

Not saying put a full set or any thing, put the RnG box we get with the 4x Mythic quest in the store, and people can buy and play the rng until they get what they want.

But the 213 is just for starting gear, then you have to do stuff for the 226+

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this makes so much sense id rather just buy the gear than play the game to get. but i say put mythic gear in the store woot.

Mythic might be a bit much, still need something to work towards after buying all the 213-220 gear.

[NineSpine]

So not enough effort to get the gear? Too easy?

This attempt to crate a gotchya is even less clever when you literally state the words you want me to say to elicit the gotchya. Try to be more subtle about it next time.

I think engagement with the game should result in progress, and you should be encouraged to engage broadly rather than in a narrow sense. I think that the ideal is someone can log in and do a few BGs, a few dungeons, maybe a raid, some crafting, etc.. and walk away with upgrades as a function of any or all of those things, rather than so much of the game being made virtually meaningless and players being encouraged to pick a single activity and focus only on that.

[Soon-TM]

Everyone has access to the best gear tho. Its not like characters get randomly denied on creation. Put in the work, do the content, get rewards.

Typical "git gud" answer, which actually doesn't answer anything. But I guess you felt quite witty when typing it