Another "I can't breath" death: Police Reform & Protests in the USA

[omeomorfismo]

But he was resisting before getting out of that car. He didn't show his hands when the cops asked him to, he even tried to reach the back of his car all while clearly hallucinating. He even had a long-ass record, including armed robbery, so yeah, you'd want to ensure the hallucinating fully drugged guy who already used weapons in his life is properly restrained.
Not saying the cops were right to "murder" him, of course they were not, but the course of events that led to that was not unjustified.
This method of maintaining someone on the floor has proven efficient millions of times already.



They didn't use lethal force. They didn't shoot him. Having a knee on your neck is not "lethal force". It may be if you're fully pumped on drugs probably, but the thousands of criminal who "suffered" this arrest method and survived ... didn't die.
Maybe they used excessive force - that's what the trial will determine. But they never used lethal force (which would have meant they'd shoot him right in his car and call it a day).

Because someone might have died indirectly from that method doesn't make that a "lethal force".
I mean, he could have died from a panic attack after being handcuffed, would that make handcuffing a lethal force to be prohibited ?



Trials can be performed without that insane levels of media attention. Well maybe not in the "Land of the Free"...



Never said otherwise, but trial was not completed yet. Presumption of Innocence doesn't even exist in US ? Did you perform the autopsy yourself ?
If he is judged guilty or murder, he should go to jail, definitely. I won't miss him, nor will I ever miss the other criminal dude who, according to everyone, should have deserved a "second chance", all while violating the law on his 6th of 7th.

why exactly the presumption of innocence shouldnt work for that guy? there was an arrest for him?
are cops even allowed to execute people? because, even ignoring that using fake money isnt death punishable in any place on earth, the executor is a different job....
and at least where i live the cops have to help someone that cant breath, not choking him.

[downnola]

Trials can be performed without that insane levels of media attention. Well maybe not in the "Land of the Free"...

George Floyd's death sparked world wide protests. People are going to want to know the outcome of the trial regardless if you like it or not.

They didn't use lethal force. They didn't shoot him. Having a knee on your neck is not "lethal force". It may be if you're fully pumped on drugs probably, but the thousands of criminal who "suffered" this arrest method and survived ... didn't die.

What's your thoughts on Kyle Rittenhouse I wonder. Do you think he was acting in self-defense when he turned around and shot Rosenbaum?

[Ophenia]

What's your thoughts on Kyle Rittenhouse I wonder. Do you think he was acting in self-defense when he turned around and shot Rosenbaum?

That country is an entire reality show, no idea who you're talking about. Quick Google search tells me it was another one of your superstar casually going outside with an automatic rifle and shooting at everyone, I have no idea what this has to do with the quoted part.
Are you insinuating I'm praising this guy because he ... killed people ? No idea, really, not sure I want to know what point you were trying to make here (but I'm not native-english speaker so I may have missed/misunderstood something).

[Mekh]

That country is an entire reality show, no idea who you're talking about. Quick Google search tells me it was another one of your superstar casually going outside with an automatic rifle and shooting at everyone, I have no idea what this has to do with the quoted part.
Are you insinuating I'm praising this guy because he ... killed people ? No idea, really, not sure I want to know what point you were trying to make here (but I'm not native-english speaker so I may have missed/misunderstood something).

Downnola is mainly probing if you have just a vague idea of what you are talking about, or are just stirring the pot without knowledge of facts. We have an answer now.

[Edge-]

I really don't get how the death of a criminal

This is not Megacity 1. Police officers are not Judges.

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https://www.ksdk.com/article/news/lo...0-564c31c8a1c6

The jury in the case of three officers accused of beating a colleague working undercover as a protester in 2017 returned a partial verdict Monday, ruling two mistrials and declaring one of the officers not guilty of all charges.

The jury deliberated for about 13 1/2 hours during two days before finding current St. Louis Metropolitan Police Officer Steven Korte not guilty of all charges against him. Myers was acquitted of one count of deprivation of rights — the most serious charge — but a case of destruction of property was ruled a mistrial due to a hung jury.

Boone, Myers and Korte were all charged with depriving officer Luther Hall of his civil rights under the color of law, which carried a maximum sentence of 10 years. They were also charged with aiding and abetting in the commission of a crime.

Myers also faced a destruction of evidence charge, for allegedly intentionally destroying Hall’s phone to cover up evidence of the beating and hinder the investigation. And Korte was charged with lying to the FBI, for allegedly telling them he was not part of the arrest.

The second and third counts all of the men were facing carried maximum penalties of 20 years in prison. All four counts carry a maximum fine of $250,000.

So two of the officers can still potentially be tried again for destruction of evidence and depriving him of his civil rights but like...this is again the kind of violent behavior from law enforcement that this thread is all about.

Two other former officers, Randy Hays and Bailey Colletta, have already pleaded guilty to their roles in the assault and are awaiting sentencing.

Two plead guilty. Wondering why the results were this way? Well maybe...

The three defendants are white. Hall is Black. Defense attorneys used their strikes to seat an all-white jury -- a move prosecutors balked at saying this case has a racial component to it.

With a Black alternate juror being rotated in late.

Reminder: Hall went overcover at a BLM protest and was assaulted violently by his fellow officers, including a herniated disk, a rotator cuff tear, a concussion, bruised tailbone, and plenty of scrapes and bruises.

Federal prosecutors say that Hall "was compliant and not posing a physical threat to anyone." Hall's civil suit notes that his partner, who is White, was also arrested during the protest but was not beaten or injured.

And did they know they were wrong to assault him?

Myers also destroyed Hall's cellphone "with the intent to impede, obstruct, and influence the investigation," according to the indictment.

Sure fuckin seems like it.

If you're a Black officer, you're not even safe from your white colleagues.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

But he was resisting before getting out of that car. He didn't show his hands when the cops asked him to, he even tried to reach the back of his car all while clearly hallucinating. He even had a long-ass record, including armed robbery, so yeah, you'd want to ensure the hallucinating fully drugged guy who already used weapons in his life is properly restrained.
Not saying the cops were right to "murder" him, of course they were not, but the course of events that led to that was not unjustified.
This method of maintaining someone on the floor has proven efficient millions of times already.

Was he still resisting after 9 minutes of being pinned to the ground with a knee on his neck?

They didn't use lethal force. They didn't shoot him. Having a knee on your neck is not "lethal force". It may be if you're fully pumped on drugs probably, but the thousands of criminal who "suffered" this arrest method and survived ... didn't die.
Maybe they used excessive force - that's what the trial will determine. But they never used lethal force (which would have meant they'd shoot him right in his car and call it a day).

Deadly Force: "Force that is likely to cause, or that a person knows or should know would create a substantial risk of causing, death or serious bodily harm or injury."

Is cutting off the flow of oxygen for 9 minutes something that anyone should know has a substantial risk of causing death or serious body injury?

Because someone might have died indirectly from that method doesn't make that a "lethal force".

By the definition of lethal force..it does. Humans require oxygen to live. Depriving a human of oxygen for 9 minutes is lethal force.

I mean, he could have died from a panic attack after being handcuffed, would that make handcuffing a lethal force to be prohibited ?

That would not be lethal force, no. It's not reasonable to assume that handcuffing someone will cause a fatal heart attack.

Trials can be performed without that insane levels of media attention. Well maybe not in the "Land of the Free"...

Whenever you add "But" to "I'm all in" you are saying you are not "all in".

Never said otherwise, but trial was not completed yet. Presumption of Innocence doesn't even exist in US ? Did you perform the autopsy yourself ?
If he is judged guilty or murder, he should go to jail, definitely. I won't miss him, nor will I ever miss the other criminal dude who, according to everyone, should have deserved a "second chance", all while violating the law on his 6th of 7th.

If George Floyd was guilty of a crime...he should have gone to jail too. He shouldn't have been murdered.

[Yadryonych]

This is not Megacity 1. Police officers are not Judges.

On the other hand in megacity 1 they defunded the police to the max while making it dreddfully effective isn't this what the crowd wants?

[Edge-]

On the other head in megacity 1 they defunded the police to the max while making it dreddfully effective isn't this what the crowd wants?

You can live in that world, the rest of us will be happy with a simple functional criminal justice system where law enforcement officers decide they're not judge, jury, and executioner.

You can have all the slomo you want. Enjoy your dystopia.

[Endus]

You can live in that world, the rest of us will be happy with a simple functional criminal justice system where law enforcement officers decide they're not judge, jury, and executioner.

You can have all the slomo you want. Enjoy your dystopia.

Why do so many people not seem to realize that Judge Dredd presented a dystopia, and Dredd was not a good guy? He's a satirical condemnation of overbearing police tactics.

It's like idolizing Tyler Durden from Fight Club. Chalk it right up to "missing the entire goddamned point of the work in question". If you idolize these kinds of characters, you're the butt of the joke they represent, nothing more.

[Edge-]

He's a satirical condemnation of overbearing police tactics.

Yeah, but he looks real cool doing it and has some great one-liners.

[Masark]

Why do so many people not seem to realize that Judge Dredd presented a dystopia, and Dredd was not a good guy? He's a satirical condemnation of overbearing police tactics.

It is impossible to create a dystopia that someone won't mistake for a utopia.

[Polyxo]

Why do so many people not seem to realize that Judge Dredd presented a dystopia, and Dredd was not a good guy? He's a satirical condemnation of overbearing police tactics.

It's like idolizing Tyler Durden from Fight Club. Chalk it right up to "missing the entire goddamned point of the work in question". If you idolize these kinds of characters, you're the butt of the joke they represent, nothing more.

There are people that do that. There's also people that think Rorschach was a good guy.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

On the other hand in megacity 1 they defunded the police to the max while making it dreddfully effective isn't this what the crowd wants?

Was it "Dreddfully" effective though? Always seemed to me like Crime was pretty much rampant and increasing police powers didn't actually solve the problem.

I mean, the whole plot of the last Dredd movie was that they were trapped in a place where Judges don't go. That doesn't seem that effective.

And if you think increasing police powers is what "the crowd" wants when they say "defund the police"....you really, really don't understand "the crowd" at all.

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There are people that do that. There's also people that think Rorschach was a good guy.

Unfortunately, Zack Snyder, the guy who directed the Watchmen film, is one of those people.

They also don't get the obvious satire of the Starship Troopers film.

[Yadryonych]

Was it "Dreddfully" effective though? Always seemed to me like Crime was pretty much rampant and increasing police powers didn't actually solve the problem.

I mean, the whole plot of the last Dredd movie was that they were trapped in a place where Judges don't go. That doesn't seem that effective..

You mean eradicating entire criminal clan overnight? Seems quite effective to me

[Elegiac]

You mean eradicating entire criminal clan overnight? Seems quite effective to me

You know that thing where American History X is a pretty explicit condemnation of white supremacy and yet people seem to constantly miss the point?

That, but with policing. Judge Dredd and the Punisher are explicit condemnations of the police state and revenge-based justice.



I'm not sure why people miss the point because, again, these condemnations and themes are pretty explicit but I guess this is the result of not teaching media criticism in school.

Why do so many people not seem to realize that Judge Dredd presented a dystopia, and Dredd was not a good guy? He's a satirical condemnation of overbearing police tactics.

It's like idolizing Tyler Durden from Fight Club. Chalk it right up to "missing the entire goddamned point of the work in question". If you idolize these kinds of characters, you're the butt of the joke they represent, nothing more.

Also, this. Lol.

[Bakis]

I feel hesitant to comment on other (western) countries laws. I have no issues pissing or praising on their overall doings.

That being said, there is no way in hell this should not be a guilty verdict. And there lies the problem, US legal system & leniency with law enforcment is well known.
And somehow I cant feel but really unsure if the hugely slanted legal towards law enforcement system can somehow grant a police officer murdering a person that is not resisting at that point untill he dies to get a 'not gultiy' verdict.

How do you justify a knee on a neck killing someone. He had some medical condtinion, he had drugs in his system?
So fucking what?

What the hell is wrong with this case, why is it even an issue, it should be about common judgement and training and what NOT to do, 9m 29s slowly murdering someone while in a position of authority.

[Edge-]

What the hell is wrong with this case, why is it even an issue

Because there's a depressingly consistent and pervasive notion that "criminals get what they deserve" and aren't deserving of rights or protections. See Trump speaking to the Police Benevolent Association (I believe) and telling a row of uniformed cops not to treat suspects in custody too nicely.

Because police have been abusing and murdering Americans with impunity for generations, and for large parts of US history that was actually one of their core functions. Slave catchers? Police thugs acting as agent provocateur's in the labor movement? Yeah, that's all a part of policing in the US.

It's not better than it was when cops beat the fuck outta Rodney King in the 90's in full view of news cameras they knew were watching.

Jury acquitted all 4 officers were acquitted of assault, 3/4 were acquitted of excessive force and the fourth wasn't convicted of it, the jury couldn't come to a verdict on him. The federal civil rights trial left one guy guilty and facing a 30 month sentence, because the judge felt bad about all the bad press the cops had from the trials.

This is a real quote from the judge mind you -

Powell's baton blow that broke King's leg was not illegal because King was still resisting and rolling around on the ground, and breaking bones in resistant suspects is permissible under police policy

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

You mean eradicating entire criminal clan overnight? Seems quite effective to me

Except the other judges seem quite ineffective...seeing as how they were too scared to even enter the place.

[Bakis]

Because there's a depressingly consistent and pervasive notion that "criminals get what they deserve" and aren't deserving of rights or protections. See Trump speaking to the Police Benevolent Association (I believe) and telling a row of uniformed cops not to treat suspects in custody too nicely.

Because police have been abusing and murdering Americans with impunity for generations, and for large parts of US history that was actually one of their core functions. Slave catchers? Police thugs acting as agent provocateur's in the labor movement? Yeah, that's all a part of policing in the US.

It's not better than it was when cops beat the fuck outta Rodney King in the 90's in full view of news cameras they knew were watching.

Jury acquitted all 4 officers were acquitted of assault, 3/4 were acquitted of excessive force and the fourth wasn't convicted of it, the jury couldn't come to a verdict on him. The federal civil rights trial left one guy guilty and facing a 30 month sentence, because the judge felt bad about all the bad press the cops had from the trials.

This is a real quote from the judge mind you -

Yes but some grain within me is hoping that the US progressed somewhat since Rodney King.
If this case was on trial in vaguely the same insane terms in any other country (Belarus and such) it would have been called a sham trial.

[Edge-]

Yes but some grain within me is hoping that the US progressed somewhat since Rodney King.
If this case was on trial in vaguely the same insane terms in any other country (Belarus and such) it would have been called a sham trial.

Home of the brave, land of the free to be assaulted and straight up killed by cops without any justice for the victim or accountability for the officer.