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  1. #1

    Lightbulb The Machine of Death Broke - Why?

    With a new patch coming (eventually) I've been replaying the questing experience on my alts and the question keeps coming back: something caused all souls to be doomed to the Maw that kicked off this expansion's problems.

    1) We see a cutscene of it happening: a large red ball comes through the influx of souls to the Arbiter, incapacitating her. Some incredibly powerful soul?


    2) We have some idea of when it did and did not happen: Ysera and Ursoc made it to Ardenweald. It had to have happened after the Emerald Nightmare raid in Legion, but before the Burning of Teldrassil that kicked off BFA, as we rescue night elf souls who burned from the Maw.


    What creature would be powerful enough to take out the Arbiter that died in that time period?

    Someone who's soul is, oh I don't know, bright red?



    Discuss implications/if I'm wrong, because I think I've hit the nail on the head.
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    Having the authority to do a thing doesn't make it just, moral, or even correct.

  2. #2
    I am Murloc! Maljinwo's Avatar
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    Im pretty sure this has been discussed several times with the same theory


    While Argus is the most likely candidate, we won't know for sure. Blizzard can always pull out something out of their ass as they've done so many times recently
    This world don't give us nothing. It be our lot to suffer... and our duty to fight back.

  3. #3
    Wasn't that orchestrated by the jailer somehow? Not sure how he could have played a part in that.

    But then again I can't say I really have been paying attention, and with blizzard writing who knows. I will give it to you that the timeline, color, and power required does all line up nicely.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Thrif View Post
    Wasn't that orchestrated by the jailer somehow? Not sure how he could have played a part in that.

    But then again I can't say I really have been paying attention, and with blizzard writing who knows. I will give it to you that the timeline, color, and power required does all line up nicely.
    Jailer needed pawns on Azeroth.

    Jailer has Denathris as pawn in Shadowlands.

    Dreadlords in Burning Legion. Burning Legion infiltrated by Dreadlords. Therefore Burning Legion infiltrated by Jailer.

  5. #5
    It was broken by Xavius wasn't it? He sure did like to serve whoever. Legion, Old Gods, both at the same time. Why not have him join with the Jailer as well.

  6. #6
    Oh not, that again.

    Could be, but the only thing that backs this theory is "because it was RED".
    Something most of Argus theorists never consider is : Why does it have to be something we're aware of ? Why can't it be totally unrelated, for once, to what we've accomplished ? Why can't it be something happening "offscreen" ?
    Argus was nothing more than a random Titan, all of them minus one were slayed long ago without destroying the Machine of Death.

    I would love to learn that something happened in the Seat of Pantheon, Sargeras somehow unleashed and has done something terrible to break it.

    Dunno. But not, once again, "just" a terrible consequence to something we've done that enabled X

  7. #7
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophenia View Post
    Oh not, that again.

    Could be, but the only thing that backs this theory is "because it was RED".
    Something most of Argus theorists never consider is : Why does it have to be something we're aware of ? Why can't it be totally unrelated, for once, to what we've accomplished ? Why can't it be something happening "offscreen" ?
    Argus was nothing more than a random Titan, all of them minus one were slayed long ago without destroying the Machine of Death.

    I would love to learn that something happened in the Seat of Pantheon, Sargeras somehow unleashed and has done something terrible to break it.

    Dunno. But not, once again, "just" a terrible consequence to something we've done that enabled X
    A lot of the theories underlying Argus have less to do with his coloration (which is naturally more of a blue/black/gold motif) and more to do with his connection with Death as a concept or force - the themes of his abilities dealing with death and souls. This theory is often combated by the notion that Titans do not go to the Shadowlands on death but Argus was an outlier on several different points, so it's not impossible that he did go to the Shadowlands (or was possibly sent there by a third party).
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  8. #8
    That's old news. But let me ask you this: Why does anyone besides he Nightfae care?

    Kyrian:
    They use anima (souls) to fuel their ascensions and machines. But those machines are not important to their role in the shadowlands, so only the ascension matters. Now, imagine the influx and usage of anima is in balance before the arbiter broke. Meaning that We have new souls, some of them are ascending while others do not and provide anima for ascension processes and machines. Now stop the influx of souls. No new souls mean no fuel needed for new ascensions (since there are no new souls that try to ascend). Meaning that the Kyrians only have to turn off their Constructs and they are fine, since they don't use anima for anything else.

    Nightfae:
    Have obvious problems, since they are actively using anima and don't have a way to generate it.

    Maldraxxus:
    What do they use anima for? Necromancy, Plagues and magical Weapons. Since atm there is no external threat, they could have just stopped using valuable ressources for fun (like they still do all the time, even without any new anima income) and would have been fine. Honestly, besides some meaningless character lines it's unclear to me how they are affected at all.

    Venthyr:
    They have plenty of Anima to spare. Denathrius has tons of it and channels it into the Maw. Meaning that there is no problem with Revendreth not gaining new souls, since they already have enough and new souls would have been witheld by Denathrius either way.

    Oribos:
    Their flightpaths don't work so well. Big whoop. One could say that interrupted communications are a problem, but then again every covenant has one job and one job only. Also the Kyrians could have played messenger birds, since they don't need flightpaths.

    So, besides strenghtening the maw: What is the problem with the arbiter being broken? Only really that the seal that keeps the maw shut is underfueled. Meaning only Ardenweald would need our anima. The rest of the realms are entirely responsible for their problems themselves.
    Last edited by LordVargK; 2021-03-31 at 03:19 PM.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    A lot of the theories underlying Argus have less to do with his coloration (which is naturally more of a blue/black/gold motif)
    Mythic Argus is canon (as the Mythic fights have been shown to be canon since Archimonde), and he is red in the Mythic version.

  10. #10
    Immortal FuxieDK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maljinwo View Post
    While Argus is the most likely candidate, we won't know for sure. Blizzard can always pull out something out of their ass as they've done so many times recently
    Argus is NOT a likely candidate. He's killed too late to make sense.

    1: Ursoc is in Ardenweald, so it worked when we killed him.
    2: Helya is in the Maw, so it was broken when we killed her.
    3: Machine broke after Ursoc, but before Helya: Only likely candidate left: Xavius
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  11. #11
    I'm pretty sure it was just Denathrius. He's also red and npcs seem to think he's the cause.

    Also it seems like Jailer and company knew it was going to happen, so them being the cause without it being some crazy 4D chess where they manipulated the universe to kill Argus makes more sense.

  12. #12
    Don't overthink things, it was Denathrius.

    The red ball is a surge of Anima from Denathrius that knocks out the Arbiter which causes the anima drought.

    Denathrius is stockpiling anima, lumping multiple souls together into massive unstable balls of anima that he's happy to torture the anima out of until the souls are destroyed.

    Our defeat of Denathrius may soon fix the Arbiter, but it'll probably take some sort of outside agency or force, my guess is the mega-dungeon in 9.1 will be the fix there.

    A bigger question now is motivation for Denathrius (I hope they never answer it.)

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by LordVargK View Post
    So, besides strenghtening the maw
    This seems like a pretty good reason for all of them to care.

  14. #14
    Dunno why will find out later.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophenia View Post
    Argus was nothing more than a random Titan, all of them minus one were slayed long ago without destroying the Machine of Death.
    But their souls never went to the Shadowlands.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronicles 1
    Before long, the titans were all dead. Sargeras declared the Legion victorious and set off to find Azeroth, not knowing that Norgannon had weaved a protective shroud around the titans' spirits during his final moments. The now disembodied souls of the Pantheon then hurled out through the cosmos.

    Eventually, the spirits reached Azeroth, slamming into the keepers that the Pantheon had assigned to watch over Azeroth.
    That said, I'm pretty sure it's been heavily hinted that Denathrius launched the attack that took out the Arbiter.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by LordVargK View Post
    That's old news. But let me ask you this: Why does anyone besides he Nightfae care?

    Kyrian:
    They use anima (souls) to fuel their ascensions and machines. But those machines are not important to their role in the shadowlands, so only the ascension matters. Now, imagine the influx and usage of anima is in balance before the arbiter broke. Meaning that We have new souls, some of them are ascending while others do not and provide anima for ascension processes and machines. Now stop the influx of souls. No new souls mean no fuel needed for new ascensions (since there are no new souls that try to ascend). Meaning that the Kyrians only have to turn off their Constructs and they are fine, since they don't use anima for anything else.

    Nightfae:
    Have obvious problems, since they are actively using anima and don't have a way to generate it.

    Maldraxxus:
    What do they use anima for? Necromancy, Plagues and magical Weapons. Since atm there is no external threat, they could have just stopped using valuable ressources for fun (like they still do all the time, even without any new anima income) and would have been fine. Honestly, besides some meaningless character lines it's unclear to me how they are affected at all.

    Venthyr:
    They have plenty of Anima to spare. Denathrius has tons of it and channels it into the Maw. Meaning that there is no problem with Revendreth not gaining new souls, since they already have enough and new souls would have been witheld by Denathrius either way.

    Oribos:
    Their flightpaths don't work so well. Big whoop. One could say that interrupted communications are a problem, but then again every covenant has one job and one job only. Also the Kyrians could have played messenger birds, since they don't need flightpaths.

    So, besides strenghtening the maw: What is the problem with the arbiter being broken? Only really that the seal that keeps the maw shut is underfueled. Meaning only Ardenweald would need our anima. The rest of the realms are entirely responsible for their problems themselves.
    You're underplaying the role of Anima.

    Kyrians use it for literally everything, it powers their robots, teleportation pads, rites and even the plant life itself grows only through anima.

    Maldraxxus itself is a living creature and slowly dying due to the anima drought.

    Ardenweald is the same where anima makes the plants grow as well as reinvigorates the spirits of the wild so they may one day return.

    Revendreth it again empowers all life in the zone but is especially important to the Venthyr themselves where they'll slowly die without a steady income of Anima. The revolution is because of certain Venthyr disagreeing with the methods of extraction and purpose of their race as their rites and purpose are being perverted by the progenitor (Denathrius.) Basically if a Venthyr truly breaks a soul rather than redeems it they have failed and all they are doing is breaking souls and even combining them to create unstable monstrosities.

  17. #17
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelangel View Post
    Mythic Argus is canon (as the Mythic fights have been shown to be canon since Archimonde), and he is red in the Mythic version.
    He is red because he's infused with Sargeras' power in an attempt to defeat both the raid and the other Titans, but he still starts the fight out with his normal coloration and we've no idea if his empowerment by Sargeras persists in death. In the outro cinematic on defeat of Argus he returns to his blue/green coloration he had prior to Sargeras' influence as well:

    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by FuxieDK View Post
    Argus is NOT a likely candidate. He's killed too late to make sense.

    1: Ursoc is in Ardenweald, so it worked when we killed him.
    2: Helya is in the Maw, so it was broken when we killed her.
    3: Machine broke after Ursoc, but before Helya: Only likely candidate left: Xavius
    I mean Helya is the one who opened a portal to the shadowlands even when she was a pure titan construct and didn't have her own realm in/very near the shadowlands. It's also implied multiple times that we didn't kill helya because she can't die. Still possible though, but unlikely.

    Another theory i think is plausible, but never mentioned, is that it was sargeras sword. Maybe by pouring its energy into azeroth or by being "killed" by the artifact weapons. Either way, being plunged into azeroth somehow opened a connection to the shadowlands.
    Not sure if sacrificing our artifact weapons was pre teldrassil though.

  19. #19
    It's obviously Argus. He's glowing red energy before he takes physical form, in Mythic he's SUPER glowing red, his death coincides with the breaking of the Machine of Death, He held the power within him to Armageddon the entire universe, and to top it off he's known as the 'Death Titan.

    On top of all that, a true death of a Titan is totally unprecedented. Sargeras didn't actually kill the other Titans, and Sargeras himself is still kicking, Argus is the only Titan that is really truly dead. We know that the Arbiter experiences the whole life of a person who comes through the veil in a moment, but Argus' entire existence has only been torture and death, it makes sense that the first Titan to die, is going to shake up the Shadowlands big time.

    It would also be consistent with the Dreadlords' manipulation of Sargeras and the Legion. If the Dreadlords set the entire system of Antorus up for Sargeras, knowing full well what would happen is such a brutally corrupted Titan world-soul went into the Shadowlands pipeline. It's way too obvious - the Dreadlords working for Denathrius who is working with the Jailer - how else could they knock out the Arbiter and enact their vengeance?

    Xavius is completely and utterly unremarkable in comparison.

    And before anyone says dead Titans go to the 'dead Titan dimension' until we actually get any evidence of that, it doesn't exist outside of a tweet from a guy who self-inserted himself as Sylvanas' boyfriend.

    I also hope that this all means that we can meet a purified Argus at some point. That would be dope.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by choom View Post
    It's obviously Argus. He's glowing red energy before he takes physical form, in Mythic he's SUPER glowing red, his death coincides with the breaking of the Machine of Death, He held the power within him to Armageddon the entire universe, and to top it off he's known as the 'Death Titan.

    On top of all that, a true death of a Titan is totally unprecedented. Sargeras didn't actually kill the other Titans, and Sargeras himself is still kicking, Argus is the only Titan that is really truly dead. We know that the Arbiter experiences the whole life of a person who comes through the veil in a moment, but Argus' entire existence has only been torture and death, it makes sense that the first Titan to die, is going to shake up the Shadowlands big time.

    It would also be consistent with the Dreadlords' manipulation of Sargeras and the Legion. If the Dreadlords set the entire system of Antorus up for Sargeras, knowing full well what would happen is such a brutally corrupted Titan world-soul went into the Shadowlands pipeline. It's way too obvious - the Dreadlords working for Denathrius who is working with the Jailer - how else could they knock out the Arbiter and enact their vengeance?

    Xavius is completely and utterly unremarkable in comparison.

    And before anyone says dead Titans go to the 'dead Titan dimension' until we actually get any evidence of that, it doesn't exist outside of a tweet from a guy who self-inserted himself as Sylvanas' boyfriend.

    I also hope that this all means that we can meet a purified Argus at some point. That would be dope.
    This sums it up pretty nicely.
    There are some other potential candidates i admit, and random offscreen asspulls can still happen, but Argus just seems like the best fit.
    This is a signature of an ailing giant, boundless in pride, wit and strength.
    Yet also as humble as health and humor permit.

    Furthermore, I consider that Carthage Slam must be destroyed.

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