Why skilled player got so mad about casual getting better loot?

[Edward Wu]

There's no good reason to give something to someone else for less effort than the amount you put in to receive it. That's the definition of unfairness.

This topic is so stupid. It's a testament to how mindbroken and shattered the WoW community is that it warranted enough interest to generate 29 pages.

[chiddie]

yeah dark souls is way harder. But im not comparing gameplay, just the reward system.

DS is harder in an honest way. WoW is hard mostly in a dishonest way.

But I agree the games are not comparable.

[Tadkins]

When has it been any other way? Since tbc, rated pvp gave better gear and allowed u to dominate in pvp.

Every other expansion allowed you to slowly earn decent PvP gear through randoms. Rated PvP was only slightly better and quicker, but I could still survive with honor gear and the slow trickle of conquest gear that came in.

[Zyky]

Dude if you expect a nice and friendly community, I’m sorry but this is the wrong game. Maybe there was a time in which it was, but now nowadays.

Over the years the toxic nature of the community has gotten worse and worse and a lot of that is because of the outside sources that Blizzard allows to rip from the game data. For example logs enabling Parse Culture and Armory API enabling .io to exist. Yes, sure they're playing caused problems in the end, but Blizzard should know by now(6 expansions in for Parse Culture) that they need to fix the problem for the game to be more healthy.

[AcidicSyn]

When has it been any other way? Since tbc, rated pvp gave better gear and allowed u to dominate in pvp.

It gave gear faster, but you could still get all of the gear (except weapons and I think shoulders?) doing just random bgs. I forgot when that stopped but it was around in at least cata IIRC (It was there post-world revamp is why I say at least cata). You'd run bgs and get a small amount of conquest points for a win, none for a loss. You would then go to the vendors in Org up in that tower in the main area where grommash hold is and buy the gear from them.

Pretty sure this is what he's referring to anyway.

[Tadkins]

Over the years the toxic nature of the community has gotten worse and worse and a lot of that is because of the outside sources that Blizzard allows to rip from the game data. For example logs enabling Parse Culture and Armory API enabling .io to exist. Yes, sure they're playing caused problems in the end, but Blizzard should know by now(6 expansions in for Parse Culture) that they need to fix the problem for the game to be more healthy.

Agreed. And one is shunned and left to feel like an outsider if they don't want to participate in parse culture and just want to try to have fun with the game.

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Pretty sure this is what he's referring to anyway.

Yup, correct.

[ellieg]

Every other expansion allowed you to slowly earn decent PvP gear through randoms. Rated PvP was only slightly better and quicker, but I could still survive with honor gear and the slow trickle of conquest gear that came in.

I did most of my pvp from tbc to cata. In that the honor gear was always 1 or 2 full tiers behind arena point gear. I think similar in mop? Wod had reduced scaling. Honestly dont remember legion and bfa pvp. I know bfa had some weekly conquest cap gear bit lower than rated players

[Electric Lighter]

Agreed. And one is shunned and left to feel like an outsider if they don't want to participate in parse culture and just want to try to have fun with the game.

Shut out how exactly? They can see the entire story...everything but maybe 1% of the content isn't welcoming of them.

[Tadkins]

Shut out how exactly? They can see the entire story...everything but maybe 1% of the content isn't welcoming of them.

Folks in this thread, as well as the devs themselves, are trying to push me into m+, raiding and rated PvP, where you are forced to care about that sort of thing. I do not feel like I am allowed to play the way I want to anymore.

Story isn't enough. I can look that up on YouTube and wowpedia. Game has to be enticing and welcoming too.

[Frozenbro]

The "real question" seems to be: What would a soloable path to 220 (or whatever is relative at the time) look like?

So far I think we've established:

- It needs to be enticing to the target playerbase. So in this case solo players, but we'll lump in casuals too. (The gear itself is the carrot here I'd say)
- It cannot make the players along the other progression paths feel like they are now forced to do this solo path in addition to their existing ones. (The main concern I think)

Its in blizz hands to figure out a reasonable solo path for casuals that dont partake in any of the 3 progression paths, but regarding your second point and speaking for myself (and maybe a few others), if this "new" path is too good that it forces mythic raiders like me and others to partake in it for being too good, then its a problem, hence why i said that this path needs to be worse on purpose, proper mythic raiders already pvp'd like crazy during progression cause of how good pvp gearing was on top of the weekly m+ for vault, adding yet another grind thanks to a 4th progression path would be a terrible design, so all in all the 4th "casual" progression path needs to be completely useless for high end but useful for casuals, a good middle ground that doesnt mess with the already existing gear progression.

[M1r4g3]

Over the years the toxic nature of the community has gotten worse and worse and a lot of that is because of the outside sources that Blizzard allows to rip from the game data. For example logs enabling Parse Culture and Armory API enabling .io to exist. Yes, sure they're playing caused problems in the end, but Blizzard should know by now(6 expansions in for Parse Culture) that they need to fix the problem for the game to be more healthy.

Oh, so can you tell me why other games don't have that ''problem'' then?
Imagine thinking its the players fault for the game being developed in such a way to promote such behaviour.

[Ragnarohk]

Effort should reflect reward... otherwise what incentive is there to do harder content?

And don't give me the typical bullshit response of doing it for the 'fun' of it.

Cosmetics.

Gear power as a reward is a never ending carrot on a stick.

[Tradu]

People who get mad about others getting loot simply see loot as a reward. For them loot is the end goal. It's not so much about beating a hard boss but about getting the cool stuff that this boss drops. And if everyone gets the cool loot from a boss, then it's not so special anymore that they beat that boss and got that loot.

It can be both. If people didn't overcome the hard challenge, they don't deserve to get rewarded as if they did.

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that is basically keeping down opponents so they can bully them and pound them in to dust. Being more skilled should already make enough difference to win/kill their opponents, when gear also becomes a factor, it's just picking on the little guy/girl and that's just pathetic.

Gear was a bigger factor in Legion/BfA than in SL, because people just randomly had much better gear than you from doing the same content, even late on farm. Gear evens out pretty quickly in SL, so it actually does become a question of skill(as long as you're doing the same level of content). Effort alone shouldn't reward the best gear in the game.

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Folks in this thread, as well as the devs themselves, are trying to push me into m+, raiding and rated PvP, where you are forced to care about that sort of thing. I do not feel like I am allowed to play the way I want to anymore.

Story isn't enough. I can look that up on YouTube and wowpedia. Game has to be enticing and welcoming too.

You are, but other people have no obligation to play with you.

[Accendor]

I mean,
real skilled players can complete their goals even with not so good equip (very good player in normal gear can complete hc, with hc gear can complete mythic)
while casual need that gear to pass that goals....
Why skilled player got so mad about??? at the end of the day their are still better and skilled!
Or after all this wow years we still make the same error and think gear should be a reward for skill instead that a pure instrument to a goal???
What the heck a top 100-1000 player need mythic loot for, if they close raid/m+ in hc gear???
It's like a professional driver/pilot going mad the normal driver can do the same route but with autopilot and a better car....
Or football/soccer player going mad to sunday friendly bob about having better shooes and equipment....

Because the loot is the rewards. Remove the rewards, everything crumbles, as can be seen in Shadowlands rn

[Tadkins]

You are, but other people have no obligation to play with you.

I'm not though, when there are no avenues of solo progression in the game.

"Submit to the raiderio and warcraftlog machines or you no longer have a place here". That is genuinely how I feel about this game right now.

[chiddie]

There's no good reason to give something to someone else for less effort than the amount you put in to receive it. That's the definition of unfairness.

Unfortunately this sentence does not apply in games where your results are mainly determined by the people you play with.

You can put all the effort that you want but past a certain point it won’t be enough to progress if you don’t find the “right” people.

[Frozenbro]

I'm not though, when there are no avenues of solo progression in the game.

"Submit to the raiderio and warcraftlog machines or you no longer have a place here". That is genuinely how I feel about this game right now.

I didnt know rated pvp had raider.io or warcraftlogs, was that introduced today? or you dont have any more arguments aside from "this game isnt for me anymore" that you are coming up with false stuff?

[BananaHandsB]

I mean,
real skilled players can complete their goals even with not so good equip (very good player in normal gear can complete hc, with hc gear can complete mythic)
while casual need that gear to pass that goals....
Why skilled player got so mad about??? at the end of the day their are still better and skilled!
Or after all this wow years we still make the same error and think gear should be a reward for skill instead that a pure instrument to a goal???
What the heck a top 100-1000 player need mythic loot for, if they close raid/m+ in hc gear???
It's like a professional driver/pilot going mad the normal driver can do the same route but with autopilot and a better car....
Or football/soccer player going mad to sunday friendly bob about having better shooes and equipment....

A "not so good player" can always get better without even getting loot. Just practicing and improving skills. For a truly skilled player, loot is the only thing that will actually improve performance.

[chiddie]

It gave gear faster, but you could still get all of the gear (except weapons and I think shoulders?) doing just random bgs. I forgot when that stopped but it was around in at least cata IIRC (It was there post-world revamp is why I say at least cata). You'd run bgs and get a small amount of conquest points for a win, none for a loss. You would then go to the vendors in Org up in that tower in the main area where grommash hold is and buy the gear from them.

Pretty sure this is what he's referring to anyway.

Yep I remember that too. At that time I did only rbgs all the time, had lot of fun and slowly geared up. Not possible anymore nowadays.

[Berndorf]

It's really not lol. Groups won't take you if you don't have both the achievements and the gear. You also have to be what they deem "meta" at that moment.

Did I not say that people only care in the sense of a player meeting a certain threshold to join groups? It's literally in the reply you quoted from me.