Why skilled player got so mad about casual getting better loot?

[chiddie]

Its in blizz hands to figure out a reasonable solo path for casuals that dont partake in any of the 3 progression paths, but regarding your second point and speaking for myself (and maybe a few others), if this "new" path is too good that it forces mythic raiders like me and others to partake in it for being too good, then its a problem, hence why i said that this path needs to be worse on purpose, proper mythic raiders already pvp'd like crazy during progression cause of how good pvp gearing was on top of the weekly m+ for vault, adding yet another grind thanks to a 4th progression path would be a terrible design, so all in all the 4th "casual" progression path needs to be completely useless for high end but useful for casuals, a good middle ground that doesnt mess with the already existing gear progression.

Given you can actually get to ilvl 200 (roughly m+10 ilvl) without setting foot in M+, whatever solo progress that doesn’t make you land at about 220 will be totally useless and not considered.

[Frozenbro]

Given you can actually get to ilvl 200 (roughly m+10 ilvl) without setting foot in M+, whatever solo progress that doesn’t make you land at about 220 will be totally useless and not considered.

Pretty much yeah, im not arrogant to just throw w/e ilvl i find reasonable, thats in blizz hands to figure out, but theres no harm in introducing that 4th progression path that gives casual further progression past 200 ilvl while at the same time not making any high end content activity useless, its up to them where they draw the line, wanna keep it under heroic so heroic raiding isnt useless? cap it at 210, wanna make it under valor so valor system isnt useless? keep it under 220 and so on.

But honestly if you ask me they wont do this anytime soon, they recently introduced valor system and current blizz will improve that system instead of introducing this path so i wouldnt keep my hopes up for this if i was a casual.

[Zyky]

Did I not say that people only care in the sense of a player meeting a certain threshold to join groups? It's literally in the reply you quoted from me.

I was agreeing with you?

[Electric Lighter]

Folks in this thread, as well as the devs themselves, are trying to push me into m+, raiding and rated PvP, where you are forced to care about that sort of thing. I do not feel like I am allowed to play the way I want to anymore.

Story isn't enough. I can look that up on YouTube and wowpedia. Game has to be enticing and welcoming too.

Then don't play them?

If you are asking for endless trivial content...well i'm sorry that can't ever be a thing. It isn't physically possible to turn out content at a pace that could keep you entertained unless you played at most an hour a week. People are pushing you towards content with replayablity because those players tend to stick around more.

[Glorious Leader]

Whoa there champ, deep, calming breaths. Its a discussion and several other people brought up that point, so I asked them to elaborate. You might consider some of that therapy yourself

What they're saying is we can't function as basic adults because we are hopeless addicts who can't help ourselves please daddy developer save us. They clearly have a fucking problem if they can't actually make this most basic of choices and frankly from a developer stand point it makes zero sense to placate them. Offering everybody else less because try hard addicts can't help themselves just means everybody else has less. Since these people will evidently do the content anyway (albeit begrudingly) why would you risk alienating everybody else by gutting rewards?

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Because the loot is the rewards. Remove the rewards, everything crumbles, as can be seen in Shadowlands rn

And WoD but here we are again same fucking shit over again. I mean these people tacitly acknowledge that incentive is key but in the very same breath want to deny others incentive. Its a fucking pyramid scam.

[VinceVega]

Honestly if casuals suddely get 226 gear with some easypeasy solo level way it would not much affect me immediatly as i get that gear too...

But what it will do is, that it woll destroy the main progression of wow since the beginning totally in every way. So we only have leveling and that is it.

At that point you can remove it and just drop transmog... and then the same people will complain, that mythic drops a more elaborate set (wod)
It would just be stupid. I am 100% that wow would loose money as many people would have nothing to work towards to anymore with their character. Yes clearing a raid feels good. But that is same as leveling. You do it once and then it is just rince and repeat. Gearing on the other hand never really stops unless you are really lucky.

I am 224 now. Not even half through Mythic. And i am allready annoyed as i won't get much upgrades anymore. And i did not even do PvP or much Mythic+.

TLDR: Take away gearing and wow will losse a LOT of players very fast because the carrot on the stick is gone.

[Frozenbro]

And WoD but here we are again same fucking shit over again. I mean these people tacitly acknowledge that incentive is key but in the very same breath want to deny others incentive. Its a fucking pyramid scam.

How are they denied? the game throws you a gamebreaking error and closes itself whenever you try to pvp, m+ or raid? this is news to me.

[Tadkins]

Then don't play them?

If you are asking for endless trivial content...well i'm sorry that can't ever be a thing. It isn't physically possible to turn out content at a pace that could keep you entertained unless you played at most an hour a week. People are pushing you towards content with replayablity because those players tend to stick around more.

I'm already not playing, and even when my computer gets fixed I don't think I want to come back. I know how "welcome" I'm going to be.

There are plenty of options that we've already had in the game for casual solo progression content. All I wish we could have is to have those back. And that's ignoring the stuff that could be repurposed. I was excited for Torghast as a solo progression, just like i greatly enjoyed Horrific Visions in BfA. Sadly they dropped the ball there, but I'd be playing for that.

At the moment though, as someone who isn't hyper-skilled and doesn't have many friends, I don't feel like I have a place here.

[Glorious Leader]

How are they denied? the game throws you a gamebreaking error and closes itself whenever you try to pvp, m+ or raid? this is news to me.

Oh ok well now you know.

[Electric Lighter]

What they're saying is we can't function as basic adults because we are hopeless addicts who can't help ourselves please daddy developer save us. They clearly have a fucking problem if they can't actually make this most basic of choices and frankly from a developer stand point it makes zero sense to placate them. Offering everybody else less because try hard addicts can't help themselves just means everybody else has less. Since these people will evidently do the content anyway (albeit begrudingly) why would you risk alienating everybody else by gutting rewards?

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And WoD but here we are again same fucking shit over again. I mean these people tacitly acknowledge that incentive is key but in the very same breath want to deny others incentive. Its a fucking pyramid scam.

I mean your demands are not sensible.. Everywhere else the loot matches up with the difficulty of the game but you want a weird exception made because...because of what?

You want to be more powerful for no explainable reason beyond the desire for power? The real paradox is the people you are claiming are trying to keep you down usually play for cosmetic or to do the mythic race more then any power reward.

[Frozenbro]

Oh ok well now you know.

Hopefully it gets fixed soon then so everyone can get 226 gear like the people that partake in pvp, m+ and raid

[Tadkins]

I mean your demands are not sensible.. Everywhere else the loot matches up with the difficulty of the game but you want a weird exception made because...because of what?

Because that's what we had before. I was able to slowly earn conquest gear through random battlegrounds. I just want that back.

You want to be more powerful for no explainable reason beyond the desire for power? The real paradox is the people you are claiming are trying to keep you down usually play for cosmetic or to do the mythic race more then any power reward.

Because as it stands, queuing for random battlegrounds isn't an option anymore unless I want to be a graveyard warmer.

[Scrysis]

I think u misunderstood my analogy,
World class athlete are, as u say, a pure skilled persone, that is perfectly right, but not a right person to take as an exemple
Take a world championship car racer (mythic raider), where the Driver has pure skill and the car is the perfect "226 equip tool" to win the race (finish mythic raid).
When this driver win the race i bet my ass he do not wanna win a CAR, but some other things, like prize, recognition, celebrity, fame, money.....i mean the car was just the tool of the main goal, Win the race.
Now, back to average joe (casual player), he struggle to win his cousin backyard race (normal raid) because he is an unskilled driver, with a old chunky car (low equip) that barerly keep him around.
If average joe keep losing, he got bored and quit racing and the petrol and car company (blizzard) should not want that because there are a lot of average joe that pay them.
So if average joe can get a better, faster car that COMPENSATE HIS LACK OF SKILL to win is race (normal raid) he will be super happy and keep racing and use petrol for race.
At the end, back to main question, do u think Hamilton the f1 champions should care if averge joe got the same car as him?????

I didn't misunderstand your analogy at all. I think you're deliberately ignoring mine.


Those "skilled players" started at the same point as everyone else, including casuals. Blizzard already created a raid for casual players -- it's called LFR. It's specifically designed with fewer mechanics for less-skilled or more casual players. It has a lower gear requirement. CASUALS DO NOT NEED MAX ILEVEL GEAR FOR THE CONTENT THEY ARE DOING.

This is an MMO, not a single-player game. There are no "cheat codes." There is no "God mode" to make players all-powerful.

And YES, GEARING DOES MATTER.

Gear works as an incentive for everyone who isn't a world-first raider. It's basic psychology. If casuals have access to end-game gear, so do regular heroic raiders. We actually had this situation in BFA. M+ was an easier source of gear than raiding was. You know what happened? It felt like SHIT. There was no incentive to do harder and less lucrative raids than to do M+. You'd work on a hard boss for days, finally get it down, and then every single piece of loot anyone got in the raid was sharded because everyone already had better from M+. Not only that, but everyone over-geared content, so bosses were significantly less challenging. What happened? Players blasted through raids at a record rate. If you didn't have enough players for Mythic, your guild either shut down or died as you finished heroic. PUGs blasted through mythic raids. And then everyone sat around and complained about an artificial content drought (not like this one; the current content drought is both unusual and real) because everyone went through the raid too fast. Just handing out all the shiniest loot actually creates systemic problems in the game itself.

Blizzard typically starts slowly nerfing high-end raids a short while after world-first race is concluded. This time around is no different. If you're a casual who wants to see heroic, either do normal and work your way up or pay for a carry. If you can't do normal, do LFR. There is literally four different difficulties of raid out right now: LFR, normal, heroic, mythic. There is absolutely NO reason for casuals to need better gear than what their current content provides. If you want better gear, work your way up.

In a way, your own argument works against you. You want better gear so badly that you're making posts about it on MMO champ. That's incentive for you to learn how to do mechanics better. It's incentive for you to learn on how to become a better player. Stop being lazy and go do it.

In the words of your analogy, your average Joe needs to practice his driving skills against his cousin and pay for a tune up. And then he can go do some local car races when he gets better. Eventually, he might have earned the right to go to the Indy 500. He's not entitled to be allowed to race there.

[VinceVega]

I'm already not playing, and even when my computer gets fixed I don't think I want to come back. I know how "welcome" I'm going to be.

There are plenty of options that we've already had in the game for casual solo progression content. All I wish we could have is to have those back. And that's ignoring the stuff that could be repurposed. I was excited for Torghast as a solo progression, just like i greatly enjoyed Horrific Visions in BfA. Sadly they dropped the ball there, but I'd be playing for that.

At the moment though, as someone who isn't hyper-skilled and doesn't have many friends, I don't feel like I have a place here.

I am sorry but that is just not true. The whole raidlogging and raiderio/wowprogress stuff started in Legion.
I have been a complete casual in Legion. I have no RL friends playing wow.
I jumped over my shadow and joined a normal raiding guild. It was fun. We were all total noobs. But we worked ourself up together.
Now i am raiding mythic and only 2x2,5 hours a weak with roation days every 4th.

Everyone is welcome in wow. But you cannot expect to be able to take part in certain parts of the game without putting in the work. And getting gear "just cause" won't change that.
Every playstyle (pvp, mythic+, raid) has a difficulty for litterally everyone. There are guilds for every playstyle hardcore to total casual without even fixed raiding days.

But if you don't want to take part in it, which it come of as, then i don't really know why you want to play the game anyway.
Wow is not a solo game and never should be.
Actual singleplayer games can make that so much better. Cyberpunk, divinity, Baldurs gate, Dragon Age. All of those have a better SP way because they are actual SP games and they can do stuff like it is demanded in this thread.

[Electric Lighter]

I'm already not playing, and even when my computer gets fixed I don't think I want to come back. I know how "welcome" I'm going to be.

There are plenty of options that we've already had in the game for casual solo progression content. All I wish we could have is to have those back. And that's ignoring the stuff that could be repurposed. I was excited for Torghast as a solo progression, just like i greatly enjoyed Horrific Visions in BfA. Sadly they dropped the ball there, but I'd be playing for that.

At the moment though, as someone who isn't hyper-skilled and doesn't have many friends, I don't feel like I have a place here.

That is the risk of a mmo. While I have nothing against solo content in its own bubble (would love a mage tower) I just dont want it to be turned into a new grind to access the group content of higher difficulties in a mmo.

[Scrysis]

how i'm wrong, every 2 raid night i partecipate in my guild wipe fest with the hope to drop equip (tools) that help me compensate for my unskilled ass with more raw power to kill the next the boss...
if for some miracle magic lucky shot i finish mythic raid the last thing i want is equip, but a vacation or a mount XD
and if a casual got better loot i do not care at all, good for them maybe they got good use for it or maybe not who cares

Maybe we just agreed to disagreed that we read the "carrot and stick" in different way...
for u the carrot is the equip
for me kill the boss

So here's the problem -- WoW is not rocket science.

What role do you play, and what kind of guides are you using? Where do you stand in comparison to the rest of your raid?

Because, this may be news to you, but gear won't help you if you get one-shot by mechanics. Gear won't help your raid if they don't do the fight mechanics correctly. Gear won't help your raid if they don't know how to play their classes and roles.

As my father would say, "Use the right tool for the job." In this case, the correct thing to do is to stop being an unskilled ass, and get better at what you're playing. And once you figure that out, help your fellow raiders out.

[Tadkins]

But if you don't want to take part in it, which it come of as, then i don't really know why you want to play the game anyway.
Wow is not a solo game and never should be.

I would love to partake in those but I do not have the friends required for them. I'm also not the most spectacular player and as such no guilds want me.

WoW always had solo options, what was so bad about that?

[Echocho]

Mabye it is not about the loot, but the sole reason, that terrible players demand more than they are capable of? And then they trashtalk the shit out of the game?
Just like in this thread, ban damage meters, ban rio, ban whatever.

No, just simply get fucking you you terrible trash player!

I mentioned it somewhere else, someone paralyzed with a stroke in my guild who is actually pretty stupid too, managed Keystonemaster.
You are worse than a stupid guy that had a stroke!!

And the worst thing is, this overmodertaed forum protects the garbage players. FIts these times, you are not allowed to say the truth to human garbage. People don't want to get better these days, the fucking keyboard losers, weebs, ionternet crap need to be carried and catered all along.
Stikc with your mobile phones.

And people say the high end community isn't toxic xD

[Tadkins]

That is the risk of a mmo. While I have nothing against solo content in its own bubble (would love a mage tower) I just dont want it to be turned into a new grind to access the group content of higher difficulties in a mmo.

Was it a "new grind" when solo players could earn conquest gear?

[cuafpr]

cause it impacts their ego.. people should be able to progress their characters to max ilvl via multiple paths, sure raiding could(should) be the fastest but the casual the logs on for dailies every day and that's it should be able to hit those same levels eventually (but before the next raid patch).