Why skilled player got so mad about casual getting better loot?

[Tradu]

Hold up, going to stop you there.

<just laughs hysterically> I can't even...

Okay, so you're just going to argue against the literal basics of how to design reward/loot systems.

[kaminaris]

Not gonna quote all the stuff but i see tons of delusion here.

I would be totally fine for people to get their 226 items from world quests, as long as its not like raining down the sky and would require quite the effort. That or be timegated.
Or like in Wotlk hardest content getting rolling nerfs each week.

The thing is, I do believe in mmo effort should be the key, not content you do. It's not an esport game, never will be. Best players already dont give a fuq what "casuals" are getting, they were never able to gear up as fast as them, so they just dont care. Like any reasonable human being would be.

"Casuals are demanding gear for nothing" is just a term of insecure hardcore wannabees that want to flex their gear nobody gives a flying fuck about. Sad reality.

[Something Wicked]

Okay, so you're just going to argue against the literal basics of how to design reward/loot systems.

Nope. I've just seen and completely understand your point of view, and am laughing hysterically at it. Elitism at its finest. People like you are terrified to accept that you're not "skilled" whatsoever, you just need overpowered gear to make you feel that way. It's pretty sad, honestly. But, c'est la vie.

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"Casuals are demanding gear for nothing" is just a term of insecure hardcore wannabees that want to flex their gear nobody gives a flying fuck about. Sad reality.

This guy gets it, though.

[Xilurm]

Why casual player got so mad about not having skilled player loot just cuz they pay sub?

[Tradu]

Not gonna quote all the stuff but i see tons of delusion here.

I would be totally fine for people to get their 226 items from world quests, as long as its not like raining down the sky and would require quite the effort. That or be timegated.
Or like in Wotlk hardest content getting rolling nerfs each week.

The thing is, I do believe in mmo effort should be the key, not content you do. It's not an esport game, never will be. Best players already dont give a fuq what "casuals" are getting, they were never able to gear up as fast as them, so they just dont care. Like any reasonable human being would be.

"Casuals are demanding gear for nothing" is just a term of insecure hardcore wannabees that want to flex their gear nobody gives a flying fuck about. Sad reality.

The hardest content already does get nerfed. Directly via hotfixes(this tier had a LOT of those) and indirectly via time gated power gains like more soulbind/conduit slots, or more gear.

I disagree with effort alone warranting the best loot in the game. And the problem with WQs giving 226 items at all is that it'd mean people get forced to do content that's very clearly trivial to them. That should never happen. People should be incentivized to do harder content in order to progress their character. Go from normal dungeons to heroic dungeons to LFR to normal to heroic to mythic.
WoW also is objectively an esports game, with all 3 primary types of group based endgame content having esports competitions. Is it a good esport? No, it's not. That doesn't mean the basics of reward design should be ignored. It was a mistake in Legion and BfA, it'd still be a mistake now.

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Nope. I've just seen and completely understand your point of view, and am laughing hysterically at it. Elitism at its finest. People like you are terrified to accept that you're not "skilled" whatsoever, you just need overpowered gear to make you feel that way. It's pretty sad, honestly. But, c'est la vie.

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This guy gets it, though.

Considering I have to be more skilled to get that gear in the first place, this does not compute. And there's nothing wrong with wanting the hardest content to give the best gear. Elitism is just a stupid buzzword used in an attempt to discredit people who disagree with you.

[ellieg]

The hardest content already does get nerfed. Directly via hotfixes(this tier had a LOT of those) and indirectly via time gated power gains like more soulbind/conduit slots, or more gear.

I disagree with effort alone warranting the best loot in the game. And the problem with WQs giving 226 items at all is that it'd mean people get forced to do content that's very clearly trivial to them. That should never happen. People should be incentivized to do harder content in order to progress their character. Go from normal dungeons to heroic dungeons to LFR to normal to heroic to mythic.
WoW also is objectively an esports game, with all 3 primary types of group based endgame content having esports competitions. Is it a good esport? No, it's not. That doesn't mean the basics of reward design should be ignored. It was a mistake in Legion and BfA, it'd still be a mistake now.

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Considering I have to be more skilled to get that gear in the first place, this does not compute. And there's nothing wrong with wanting the hardest content to give the best gear. Elitism is just a stupid buzzword used in an attempt to discredit people who disagree with you.

But like, what if im a gamer dad casual with 30 mins a week and a lobotomy and can only handle 3 APM. I deserve a pathway to 226

[Soon-TM]

It's not an esport game, never will be.

While I agree, it would seem as if devs were trying to esport-ify the game no matter how. They of course are failing hardcore in that regard, but for some reason they keep trying.

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Why casual player got so mad about not having skilled player loot just cuz they pay sub?

Because if they can't progress their toon, they tend to unsub en masse. I'm sure you don't want that to happen, do you? You can always throw casual players a bone without MuH TwOtWoSeEx.

[Tadkins]

*looks at the current PvP scene*

XD

Armchair developer mode, but it seems like it would have been easier to balance through templates than with not. Could be wrong though.

I really wish they would have just stuck with that though. It was some of the most fun I ever had with PvP.

[Xilurm]

Because if they can't progress their toon, they tend to unsub en masse. I'm sure you don't want that to happen, do you? You can always throw casual players a bone without MuH TwOtWoSeEx.

I'm casual af myself. I just don't like arrogant people demanding things like it's owed to them. Which pretty much goes for both skilled players whining about casual players, and casual players whining about skilled players.

[Tadkins]

I'm casual af myself. I just don't like arrogant people demanding things like it's owed to them. Which pretty much goes for both skilled players whining about casual players, and casual players whining about skilled players.

I'm only asking for what we used to have back.

[Something Wicked]

Considering I have to be more skilled to get that gear in the first place, this does not compute.

BZZZT! Sorry, wrong again.

You're not more skilled than anyone (unless you count basic compentency of "getting out of the way of shit" and "learning the boss's mechanics" as skilled -- but hint, it's not). More willing to deal with asshole raiders? Sure, no argument. More ambition to do boring, repetetive content just because of the rewards? Sure, no argument. Running around with a ton of other players carrying each other? Again, sure, no argument.

But that's not skill.

[jsrfuture]

I'm only asking for what we used to have back.

that's kind of irrelevant. I too would like thing I had before that no longer have, like demo metamorphosis warlock, or the completely unbalanced affliction warlock of MoP, but the game changed and took a different turn. I'm like almost certain that the majority of wow player are missing something from an prior expact.

[ellieg]

BZZZT! Sorry, wrong again.

You're not more skilled than anyone (unless you count basic compentency of "getting out of the way of shit" and "learning the boss's mechanics" as skilled -- but hint, it's not). More willing to deal with asshole raiders? Sure, no argument. More ambition to do boring, repetetive content just because of the rewards? Sure, no argument. Running around with a ton of other players carrying each other? Again, sure, no argument.

But that's not skill.

Lol can you explain what "skill" is?

[Xilurm]

I'm only asking for what we used to have back.

Well I'm not replying to you lol, I don't even know what you said. My first post was a reply to the OP and it's pretty much the same thing with roles reversed. Skilled players aren't losing anything because the casuals get better gear. And at the same time casuals ain't really getting anything by getting better gear, not unless they plan on using it, but a casual is probably gonna complain the difficulty is too hard anyway regardless of what kind of gear they get, even though they literally got the same kind of content in multiple difficulties.

[Tradu]

BZZZT! Sorry, wrong again.

You're not more skilled than anyone (unless you count basic compentency of "getting out of the way of shit" and "learning the boss's mechanics" as skilled -- but hint, it's not). More willing to deal with asshole raiders? Sure, no argument. More ambition to do boring, repetetive content just because of the rewards? Sure, no argument. Running around with a ton of other players carrying each other? Again, sure, no argument.

But that's not skill.

It quite literally is a set of skills, yes.

[Frozenbro]

But that's not skill.

So if 1 hunter gets a grey parse and another gets a 99 parse with same ilvl in same situations (no deaths, no mechanics targeting them), what explains first hunter perfomance? are they both equally skilled? good luck explaining this with your idea of skill.

[Tadkins]

that's kind of irrelevant. I too would like thing I had before that no longer have, like demo metamorphosis warlock, or the completely unbalanced affliction warlock of MoP, but the game changed and took a different turn. I'm like almost certain that the majority of wow player are missing something from an prior expact.

Fair enough. I don't think it's a bad thing to ask for something back if it's reasonable though. I don't think wanting conquest gear through random BGs like we used to have is bad. Especially when it means the difference between paying a sub or just staying away.

Well I'm not replying to you lol, I don't even know what you said. My first post was a reply to the OP and it's pretty much the same thing with roles reversed. Skilled players aren't losing anything because the casuals get better gear. And at the same time casuals ain't really getting anything by getting better gear, not unless they plan on using it, but a casual is probably gonna complain the difficulty is too hard anyway regardless of what kind of gear they get, even though they literally got the same kind of content in multiple difficulties.

Casuals can in fact use better gear, despite what many say here. Everyone wants to feel like they're progressing in some fashion, even if they're just getting a WQ done five seconds faster. There's also the fact that random battlegrounds and such exist, and if there's a clear situation where the haves are totally dominating the have-nots, what fun are the have-nots supposed to have in the game, and why should they continue paying a sub only to get beaten up? We have RL dominatrixes for that sort of thing if folks were so inclined toward that. xD

[PixelFox]

WoW devs should spend more time playing GW2 where none of this is a problem and the community is 99.9% nice to each other and helpful to strangers.

[Xilurm]

WoW devs should spend more time playing GW2 where none of this is a problem and the community is 99.9% nice to each other and helpful to strangers.

I imagine that's because the community is way smaller compared to WoW's.

[Dwarni]

That already started during TBC. In TBC you could (and soon can again ) buy a lot of stuff with justice points. The stuff you could buy was always 1 tier below the current raid, so for example when black temple was out you could buy items at t5 level.

That pissed quite some raiders off, not the ones that cleared temple easily but the ones that did not and did not like it that ppl could just buy some items on t5 levels by justice points which you could farm by doing heroic dungeons and raids (regardless of tier). When sunwell came out you could even buy t6 level items which drove some even madder .

I think some players just begrudge other players that they also get some loot.