Need advice about Chinese

[Leekie]

I want to start learning Chinese. Where do I need to start? I think learning a language on my own, although I think it will be much harder than with a teacher.

[shadowmouse]

I want to start learning Chinese. Where do I need to start? I think learning a language on my own, although I think it will be much harder than with a teacher.

Short answer? Don't. Chinese (the people) are high context and words by themselves are only part of what you need to understand what's going on: https://www.state.gov/courses/answer...module3_p3.htm

For simple communication (often missing a lot of important nuance) Google Translate or other similar tools will usually get you through.

If you have a reason to really try to pick it up, there are plenty of language programs affiliated with various Chinese universities. Because of COVID, you may have trouble getting cleared to come to China but don't settle for online. Because you need to learn context for that high context setting, you need an immersive environment. Sure, online might give you a bit of a head start while you wait, but it may also give you a false sense of confidence.

[Cinnamilk]

Learning Chinese is definitely a major commitment, but if you're in for it good for you. I've gotten to the point where I'm fluent in Japanese and doing a little bit of side study in Mandarin.

I'd say first know what your goals are and why you want to learn Chinese. I'm going to assume that your reasoning led you to study Mandarin written in simplified characters.

Without having any background in hanzi, a lot of your up-front work is going to be learning characters, so prepare to split your time between memorizing characters and actual studying of grammar and sentences.

First step before any of this is to learn the phonetic system. Chinese syllables always have an initial (or a null initial), and a rhyme that can be sometimes thought of as a medial and a final. Only certain combinations of them happen together, so I'd suggest first getting used to how those syllables are written in pinyin vs what they sound like when pronounced by different people. You'll also have to practice learning tones. I think that Wikipedia has a nice explanation of how to conceptualize pinyin and the initials/rhyme, and you can look at some videos such as yoyochinese to get some videos with sounds. There's a page on the free part of their website that has pronunciations for all sorts of syllable/tone combinations.
A big part of the pronunciation from a native English speaker's perspective is getting used to the mouth shapes for ch/zh/sh vs q/j/x. It's nice to know that the actual vowel sounds that come after those are never shared, but it is good to keep in mind that the tip of your tongue should be pointing up towards the roof of your mouth for the first set and down behind your bottom teeth in the second set.

After that, you can start doing hanzi and grammar/sentences. I'd recommend that you do a little of both at the same time vs focusing on one exclusively. You'll have to get used to recognizing the patterns present in Chinese characters and build the structures in your brain that allow you to recall them and their readings. I'd definitely say that Heisig's Remembering the Hanzi is good for this. Stick to his method of creating your own little mnemonics and stories for each character to help you recall the characters. In order to keep track of everything, I made my own hanzi flash card deck using the SRS program Anki, which I'd highly recommend using to help things stick to your memory. Physical flashcards work fine too, but anki just makes the process a little more automated.

In terms of grammar/sentences, there's a lot of ways to go with that and it's really going to depend on what kind of learning suits you best.

[Daedius]

I studied Mandarin during my Primary school days in Malaysia. Never could grasp the damn thing...

Gimme a language that uses A-z any day!

[Cinnamilk]

I studied Mandarin during my Primary school days in Malaysia. Never could grasp the damn thing...

Gimme a language that uses A-z any day!

It's easier to remember a string of Chinese characters than it is to remember a string of letters, at least for me. There's a lot of visual thinking involved that makes it easier, and reading Japanese is somewhat similar for me too. The difference right now is that I can easily process incoming Japanese and produce it, whereas I don't have the time put in to make sense of most spoken Chinese. My tongue trips up a lot more trying to speak in Chinese, whereas Japanese is mostly freely flowing.

[Cinnamilk]

what problems would arise if you learn it but you're in low-context culture? do they think you are rude? an asshole?

is there a lot of misunderstandings based on this?

Japan is also a high-context culture. Honestly, it's just that you have to get used to whatever sorts of situations you'd find yourself in, with what sort of people, etc.

If you watch a good deal of media you should be able to get a feeling of what sorts of relationships the people have and what's appropriate to be said and so forth. An immersive environment just helps because if you make a fuckup like that in a low-risk environment, you get corrected and remember.

For example, I once referred to my dorm lady in front of her as [last name]-san instead of [last name]-ryoubo or just ryoubo(寮母), which is the Japanese word for a female dorm manager. She immediately corrected me about it and now it's just ryoubo. At first I'd think it'd be rude to refer to someone as just their role and didn't even know that you can use ryoubo as keishou (honorific title), but in Japan that's the norm and to not do so is kind of strange and rude.

[shadowmouse]

@Sugarcube

The first thing to remember is that the high/low context model is a tool set that helps one look for patterns. Although I've found it useful, it is far from a one size fits all solution.

Japan is also a high-context culture. Honestly, it's just that you have to get used to whatever sorts of situations you'd find yourself in, with what sort of people, etc.

Cinnamilk does a good job of explaining their take on language and culture and I'm always glad to see them post in a thread like this, but let me throw in my two cents as well. Taken too literally, high and low context would seem to imply that an American, a Canadian, a Brit, an Australian, a Swede, and a French person should all be the same.
Compared to a range of high context cultures (let's just say Hall to keep this shorter) that's sort of true, but compared side by side there are differences. Dig a little deeper and you'll find differences within each of those countries cultures. To make that easier to understand, look at how the US and UK are placed.



The Lewis Model gives less of a black/white/shades of grey tool. Under Hall's model, Japan seem like they should be much like China -- kinda and not really. Lewis explains the difference by putting them at the same level, but different legs of the triangle.

Alright, that's a very long lead in to explain why these things are tools that give a general pattern, but the answer to your question is not a simple one. Just in form, it is rather Chinese -- they tend to long lead ins and expect the listener to figure out their intention. Watch any group of foreigners sitting through a presentation by Chinese and you'll see a mix of those who just tune it out until the final point comes out and others who seem to be battling the urge to just tell the presenter to get to the damned point.

Will it make you seem rude? It can. When I first arrived in China and was getting used to things, I took my assistant and her boyfriend traveling for their internship. Her boyfriend was a jackass who refused to speak English (he added a second major to get another year to grind until he could pass the required English exam without attempting to even guess at the oral portion) who stomped around in a huff the whole time. Here I was, trying to keep up with the kids. I walked until my shoes were full of blood every day and I had to soak my feet to get my bloody socks off. My assistant seemed like she was worried about the old guy and she kept asking "are you tired?" "do your feet hurt?" "Do you want to rest?" Feeling older than dirt, I kept assuring her that I was OK and I thought I could keep up. Ooops! By the end of the trip, she was beyond pissed off because I didn't get that Jackass the boyfriend wouldn't stop his BS unless I said I needed to stop and that she meant her feet hurt, she was tired, and she wanted to rest! Danger! Some of the biggest screw ups are when both sides are trying to be nice and nice doesn't translate from one culture to the other.

Sometimes you'll just miss opportunities. Out of nowhere, you may get a title hung on you and it comes with reciprocal obligations. Look up gan nv'er (v is used for u umlaut). Another assistant, years later, was out for dinner with me giving me the weekly briefing and it happened to fall on Father's day. They had all heard stories about my (semi adopted) daughters and we had a nice chat as I got messages from the two of them. We wrapped up the evening, I got home and I got a message. "Happy Father's day, daddy!" Coulda knocked me over with a feather. Years after that, an old student of mine started suddenly calling me "buddy" and the nickle finally dropped, she was by then in her mid 30's so "dad" wasn't really an option, but she wanted me to be special. With the daughters scattered around China and Europe, she has taken it upon herself to make things go easier for me, for example helping me get simple medicine that can be searched out online but it can be hard to find in a pharmacy (naproxin with sodium for example).

Cinnamilk's story about titles might play out a bit differently in China, it would have been used to put them in their place in a deniable way.

Alright, there is some background and a couple of examples. I'm going to break off before this budding novella gets turned into something on Netflix.

[smityx]

I'd say first know what your goals are and why you want to learn Chinese. I'm going to assume that your reasoning led you to study Mandarin written in simplified characters.

They may want to move to china and get a "white monkey job" or learn the language to converse with our future overlords in a couple decades in their native language.

"White monkey job" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qi5JEZo2KT0

[Frostfred]

Imo, the most important thing when learning any new language is motivation, and find activities / classes / programs that you enjoy. Of course, there are some more effective and some less effective ways to acquire a new language. There are tons of research and Ted talks on it. But if you don't really enjoy it and find something that fits you, you won't be in for the long run - except you have to learn it, e.g. due to work, etc. If you have the motivation and methods you enjoy, it will also be no problem to invest a lot of time, which you will DEFINITELY need for learning Chinese.

Right now, I'm also learning Chinese, though fairly casually. Usually it's best to use different resources, though having a main one in the beginning only supported by others can help. I'm making okay-ish progress using Lingodeer as my main app for now, as I have a lifetime subscription for all languages there, which I bought during Corona-boredom. It was my usual way when starting with a new language before. That main app should have some vocabulary and explain the grammar structure well. The huge downside for Lingodeer is, that their review section does not have a spaced repetition system.
However, for Chinese you need more, because it's just too different. You need to practice the writing, vocabulary and pronunciation well (coming from an Indo-European language). For the first two, I use Tofu Learn, it's a free app and has vocabulary from all HSK levels already inside. For the third, I try to pronounce everything I learn to myself, and sometime I just say random stuff that pops into my head to my flatmates. And I listen to Chinese language learning podcasts when doing other stuff (like cooking or taking a walk).
I would also suggest taking some classes, either in a group or one-on-one. There are sites where you can connect to language teachers around the world (for example iTalki). I've never used them, but I've heard they are great if you find a fitting teacher. That would help a lot, as you can fill in gaps in the knowledge, ask questions and practice talking and use the knowledge you acquired in a learning environment.

[Cinnamilk]

@shadowmouse
That's the first time I've seen the Lewis model, but it's a pretty neat way to dig a little bit deeper than just low-context/high-context.
Pretty enlightening examples on culture difference, too. Thanks for sharing.

[shadowmouse]

@shadowmouse
That's the first time I've seen the Lewis model, but it's a pretty neat way to dig a little bit deeper than just low-context/high-context.
Pretty enlightening examples on culture difference, too. Thanks for sharing.

I've found it useful.

[ifrah]

Whatever the language, considering no (related) background knowledge, learning on your own from scratch is just a hardmode for no obvious reason.

[PC2]

I want to start learning Chinese. Where do I need to start? I think learning a language on my own, although I think it will be much harder than with a teacher.

Don't listen to the naysayers. Learning something about a foreign language is still better than nothing at all even if it's high context. It's much better if you have access to a teacher and friends who know the language and the most useful dialects but if you don't have access you can still increase your understanding of anything even if you don't have access to the perfect learning environment.

[D Luniz]

teacher to get you started, then from there, watch their TV, try find native speakers to talk with, its how my cousin learned spanish

[Sammy00]

I have been studying Mandarin for almost two years. At first it seemed very difficult and that I couldnt learn to the level I wanted to be at , but over time I gained results and it began to motivate me even more to advanced levels. I think it is important to find some good courses and good teachers which supported me during my learning, because your success depends on it.

[UnderwoodSebastian]

I'm good with languages but languages like Chinese, Hungarian, Finnish are too hard...

[Selvari7]

Why Chinese over Japanese?

[PC2]

Why Chinese over Japanese?

Because China is way bigger and it will play a more significant role in the world. Personally I would rather work on my Spanish but if China ever does more work to standardize their use of language then I might consider learning it as my third language.

[Wingitwongit]

Chinese advice you say?

King prawn balls with soy sauce.
Black bean sauce with special fried rice.
Portion of crackers.

Always hits the right spot.