Why skilled player got so mad about casual getting better loot?

[Alvito]

I mean,
real skilled players can complete their goals even with not so good equip (very good player in normal gear can complete hc, with hc gear can complete mythic)
while casual need that gear to pass that goals....
Why skilled player got so mad about??? at the end of the day their are still better and skilled!
Or after all this wow years we still make the same error and think gear should be a reward for skill instead that a pure instrument to a goal???
What the heck a top 100-1000 player need mythic loot for, if they close raid/m+ in hc gear???
It's like a professional driver/pilot going mad the normal driver can do the same route but with autopilot and a better car....
Or football/soccer player going mad to sunday friendly bob about having better shooes and equipment....

Often the ones that get upset are the ones that struggle to get something and then see someone get the same thing with less effort.

[Soon-TM]

That pissed quite some raiders off.

Indeed, I still remember the !#$%storm at the official forums during the second half of BC, the buzzword at that time was "welfare gear" lol. Completely ignoring that arena, especially S1 was actually dropping purples without any effort whatsoever, and most raiders certainly profited from it.

But devs at that time were smarter, and didn't pay attention to raiders' whining, and made the game far more accessible in WotLK - the top expansion ever imo.

[Glorious Leader]

I mean do you?

I've never heard of the type of player your trying to represent scream in joy about visions or mage tower. You mostly just screamed nerf!

This is a complete and total non sequitur.

[TheRevenantHero]

Lol can you explain what "skill" is?

Skill is knowing when to properly cycle cooldowns. Skill is knowing how to move and when to move. Skill is being good at a game regardless of loot.

WoW isn't the kind of MMO that has ever required skill.

- - - Updated - - -

It quite literally is a set of skills, yes.

None of what they listed are skills.

[Tadkins]

What is it you want to do?

What I always did in previous expansions, play random battlegrounds and earn enough gear to survive on my own.

[TheRevenantHero]

I imagine that's because the community is way smaller compared to WoW's.

A better example would be FF14....a game where the community is nicer to each other and more likely to help strangers/newbies.

[Tadkins]

A better example would be FF14....a game where the community is nicer to each other and more likely to help strangers/newbies.

I took a look at that game. The nicer community, the crackdown on toxicity and the respect the devs have for the playerbase is very appealing.

[Squigglyo]

You have that progression route. You just chose to not take it.

Every part of the game has a route of progression.
But you cant screw over casual players because they are below you.

The sooner a casual player hits a wall and is told they need to step up and stop being casual, the sooner they have to make the decision to stop being casual or quit.
And since casuals are the majority, its in the games best interest to ensure casuals have something to want to stay for.

Thats not to say casuals should get access to the best loot.
Its that casuals fund the game, they need to be catered to and they need to have a reason to log on.

This game doesnt have casual content outside pokemon and cosmetic farming where gear is not a factor, so why should it have casual gear? Same with mythic plus - it's not a type of content. It's a part of PvE content and is secondary to raids.

What you consider casual and what others consider casual are not the same.

Cosmetic farming requires a fair amount of time, i wouldnt consider that casual in itself. People have armies of alts farming old instances.
Pet Battles as well, shit load of time to get them all, level them, get all the achievements.
Just because something isnt skill-intensive doesnt make it casual activity.

The majority of people measure casuals by the time they put in, not the specific content they play.



Mythic+ is only secondary to raids if you consider Arena second to Rated Battlegrounds.
They are in the same category (PVP/PVE) but are completly different content requireing different sets of skills.

[Tadkins]

What you consider casual and what others consider casual are not the same.

Cosmetic farming requires a fair amount of time, i wouldnt consider that casual in itself. People have armies of alts farming old instances.
Pet Battles as well, shit load of time to get them all, level them, get all the achievements.
Just because something isnt skill-intensive doesnt make it casual activity.

The majority of people measure casuals by the time they put in, not the specific content they play.

For sure. I'm not sure I really consider myself a casual. When I did play I would play up to 12 hours a day. My main does have 30k+ achievement points. I just wasn't very good, both in terms of game skills and social skills. I've always had trouble with the finer aspects of my class and making friends to do content with. The tougher content in the game that requires a group was just always blocked to me for that reason.

I did still have plenty of content though, and I did have a gearing path with which I could have fun on my own and still survive. At least until SL. Now I just don't feel at all welcome, both by the playerbase at large and by the devs themselves.

[Electric Lighter]

This is a complete and total non sequitur.

More a rebuttal...

[Bugsy]

It's much easier than any other content that rewards 226 gear.

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That's literally what we have right now. There is an even playing field because doing the content means you get rewarded accordingly. Even playing field doesn't mean you get higher rewards than the content you do justifies. It does get easier to get gear as well, because there's more other people at your gear level for you to do content with.

Not gonna argue against more mage tower-esque content, that was cool. Especially with it being limited to the expansion, so there was a clear time limit and everybody who did it has something cool to show "I was here".

I know, that's why I put there, what we have is a good system, both PvP and PvE. M+ not so much, but the upgrade system mirrors PvP and it's awesome.
The only issue is time to gear, not skill vs reward.

In order to have a progression curve in a skill based game, it needs to have a flat top end that extends to include about 20% of the player base or rewards are... more like participation rewards.

You speak of the mage tower-esque content. That was an example of learning by losing and it was great for the community, people helped each other, shared tips and made guides. They encouraged others who thought they couldn't to try it... some probably couldn't.

It's okay to be a normal raider, a 1400 player, a dungeon crawler... the skill or time it takes to build that skill is not something everyone will have. But robbing people of the reward for taking that time is the final nail in the coffin for this game.

[chiddie]

It's much easier than any other content that rewards 226 gear.

This is an entirely different topic.

Climbing K2 is probably easier than climbing Everest, but both are very difficult activities almost no one will be able to do.

[Kumorii]

Skill is knowing when to properly cycle cooldowns. Skill is knowing how to move and when to move. Skill is being good at a game regardless of loot.

WoW isn't the kind of MMO that has ever required skill.

Thes 2 sentences just contradict each other.

First sentence perfectly describe WoW and you claim it is what skill is. Yet you say WoW doesn't have it... which is it?

[ellieg]

Thes 2 sentences just contradict each other.

First sentence perfectly describe WoW and you claim it is what skill is. Yet you say WoW doesn't have it... which is it?

Apparently wow requires no skill, but casuals can't get gear from more difficult content because its too difficult. Idk lol. The entire thread is contradictions. Often in the same post like that one

[kamuimac]

I mean,
real skilled players can complete their goals even with not so good equip (very good player in normal gear can complete hc, with hc gear can complete mythic)
while casual need that gear to pass that goals....
Why skilled player got so mad about??? at the end of the day their are still better and skilled!
Or after all this wow years we still make the same error and think gear should be a reward for skill instead that a pure instrument to a goal???
What the heck a top 100-1000 player need mythic loot for, if they close raid/m+ in hc gear???
It's like a professional driver/pilot going mad the normal driver can do the same route but with autopilot and a better car....
Or football/soccer player going mad to sunday friendly bob about having better shooes and equipment....

the problem is not with loot iself but with complete lack of char progress outside of just basic gear . wow is doing extremly bad job at it. it was once here but got gutted :

a)talent trees
b)glyphs
c)reforging
d)itlv upgrades
e)enchants/gems that mattered
f)proffesions that mattered
g)VP gear.

those are RPG elements that are no longer in game. thats why game feels like hollow shadow of its formers self.

add to this completly overtuned endgame and you have recipe for disaster.

and this disaster culminated in SL that lost 60 % of its playerbase already

[ellieg]

the problem is not with loot iself but with complete lack of char progress outside of just basic gear . wow is doing extremly bad job at it. it was once here but got gutted :

a)talent trees
b)glyphs
c)reforging
d)itlv upgrades
e)enchants/gems that mattered
f)proffesions that mattered
g)VP gear.

those are RPG elements that are no longer in game. thats why game feels like hollow shadow of its formers self.

add to this completly overtuned endgame and you have recipe for disaster.

and this disaster culminated in SL that lost 60 % of its playerbase already

Talents are still here. Old talents were extremely cookie cutter. You soccer the same with 95% ofvyour points. You were left with the choice of improved sprint, vs lower cd on evasion. Compared to the 7 or so choices we have now.

Glyphs were cool but there were best glyphs and bad glyphs. The minors were a good idea and some still remain.

Reforging was shit.ainly needed for exp and hit caps. Its not cool getting a piece of gear, running to reforger, hitting addon button, then using it. Blizz balanced around the power increase it gave. All it did was add a gold sink to the game.

Are you talking ilvl? Ilvl wins in 99% of upgrade scenarios.

I think gems are cool now. When did they matter? Old meta gems that required you to slot in colors you didn't want?

Professions were better back then but were mandatory at a certain level. Im iffy on that.

Vp gear is whatever. Not sure how it would be an rpg element. Having to grind out PoS everyday for an upgrade wasn't fun to me.

End game is definitely not overtuned. It has like 3p different difficulty settings so all players have content

[Edward Wu]

Not sure why they weren't popular.

Removed the feeling of gear progression which even in PvP was evidently pretty important to people, I was one of those people so I'm glad it's gone. Frankly PvP was still unbalanced even with the templates so I don't think it did much other than cut the gearing time of new players/alts.

[Tadkins]

Removed the feeling of gear progression which even in PvP was evidently pretty important to people, I was one of those people so I'm glad it's gone. Frankly PvP was still unbalanced even with the templates so I don't think it did much other than cut the gearing time of new players/alts.

It ensured more fair games, and even when losing it felt like there was an actual battle and not just a group of ultra-geared dudes steamrolling everything. It meant everyone can jump in and it gave the opportunity to try characters we otherwise wouldn't have.

It was a great system and if we had that I wouldnt be stressed over gear and trying to worm my way into content I don't belong like M+.

Gear progression would still have its place in PvE.

[Feral Druid ist Op]

Most casual players don't want mythic level gear. What elitist hate is that casuals are getting anything higher than leveling gear. I've legitimately seen people losing their minds because someone got a mythic +0 ilvl gear from a WQ.

lol you get literally 203 ilvl loot form a calling bag and from table missons which is equal to normal mode raiding gear why do oyu need better gear? and what for? i cleared hc with ma guild being ~190 ilvl Week one same for +14-15 in time keys done with 195-200 ilvl week one of M+ so you have the same tools i had to clear the content hell we even did the first 4 Mythic bosses with ~205ilvl

[Something Wicked]

lol you get literally 203 ilvl loot form a calling bag and from table missons which is equal to normal mode raiding gear why do oyu need better gear? and what for? i cleared hc with ma guild being ~190 ilvl Week one same for +14-15 in time keys done with 195-200 ilvl week one of M+ so you have the same tools i had to clear the content hell we even did the first 4 Mythic bosses with ~205ilvl

Oh cool, so you agree! You don't need higher level gear either!

Man, I love it when people like you talk yourselves out of your own argument. It's glorious to watch.