{TV} The Falcon and the Winter Soldier

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

I guess those things on all of batman's vehicles are just simply there to make noise and flash lights?

Linked this early this morning in the Zack Snyder JL thread...but apparently it applies here too.

https://www.gamesradar.com/history-batman-guns/

There's no definitive source for the reason Batman stopped carrying guns, but the important thing to note about the decision is that an editorial note in Batman specifically stated that "The Batman never carries or kills with a gun," according to Adams and O'Neil.

"They not only decided to do it, but they codified it," Adams said. "The conversation in the comic was, yeah, we don't carry guns."

Adams said he believes the decision was made by Whitney Ellsworth, an early DC editor. "There was a discussion, I'm told, a discussion around the office about the idea of Batman not carrying a gun," Adams said. "Superman did not carry a gun. Wonder Woman didn't carry a gun. Why is Batman a stone killer? It just seemed uncomfortable for everybody at that time. I can't go back in time, and I can't speculate on it, but I would have agreed [that Batman shouldn't use guns], if I were there at that time. He's certainly got enough weapons, he certainly scares people, and he does all these things that Batman needs to do – why does he pull out a gun and plug somebody?"

There are, of course, exceptions...but the by and large rule is "Batman doesn't use guns"

[Something Wicked]

I guess those things on all of batman's vehicles are just simply there to make noise and flash lights?

Congratulations. You've just realized a completely different point, but then immediately didn't.

(Hint: Batman--the real Batman character, not the Synder/WB Batmen--loathes guns with a seething passion.)

[Endus]

IDK, Sharon's actress doesn't do it for me. She's trying to play a morally grey (perhaps even villainous) character and it just isn't believable. Overall, I don't.....what's the word?.....narratively accept that she's so cynical? Yeah, she became a fugitive, but now she's totally disillusioned by the idea of "heroes" and it sounds like the Avengers too?

And then she blames folks like Sam because he was able to get a pardon, as if she wasn't related to Peggy Carter and a friend of Cap's too, and could have probably just as easily get pardoned?

I get that they probably wanted to separate her character-wise from Peggy, because before this, she was an also-ran whose only significant characterization was "cute, but not anywhere near Peggy's amazingness". Taking her down an ethically-grey path is a way to do that. I agree it felt forced, though.

The action with her was fine, but it had a real "John Wick takeoff" feel to it, in a bad way. Like they're furiously cribbing off those films notes. Even the neon cityscape of Majipoor seems pretty comparable to some of the stuff in the later two Wick films (I love the aesthetic they're developing for it, it's just the juxtaposition in this episode made their inspiration pretty clear to me, IMO).

I think what it needed was for Sharon to be way more settled into her new life. Angry that she got tossed aside, but totally unwilling to ever give up her freedom again. She shouldn't want a pardon. It might be a minor convenience so she can visit family without having to evade basic security measures, but that's about it. And the idea that she's selling Monets and stuff and can't sneak into the USA? Pablo fuckin' Escobar took a photo with his son standing in front of the White House while there was an active manhunt on for him. https://www.businessinsider.com/phot...e-house-2015-9

C'mon, man. It should've been that Sharon didn't go back because she doesn't want to go back. She can fly her family to see her any time she likes. Even meet in some non-extradition country if they prefer.

It just feels half-assed. They gave her a new path forward and then stepped back from it for some reason.

I imagine the rest of the series will be about the 12 remaining. I imagine Cap/Battlestar/Falcon will probably get at least 3 of them, Sam only after he realizes that he has to counteract a burgeoning U.S. Agent arc from John Walker, who will probably kill some Flag Smashers and take some serum for himself.

I'm pretty convinced that Walker's gonna lose his cool when he realizes there are vials out there. He's gonna break rules to get one, thinking he needs the serum for people to really see him as Captain America, since the shield and costume aren't cutting it. That's where he's gonna cross the line, I think; I agree there.

Also, as a passing thought: Sharon might be a total fake. The car she got into, with a driver/bodyguard, and the place she lived in screamed more of CIA station chief more than renegade art dealer.

Also, why do we keep forgetting Skrulls exist? Just to make the point.

I don't think Sharon's a CIA station chief, though. She may have a black-ops arrangement, but if she's regularly stealing/trading high-end art, the CIA would be demanding the lion's share, and that's clearly not the arrangement. I just think she's a much bigger fish than she let on to the boys. And like I said; a pardon seems really fucking cheap as a price, if she's got that kind of cash floating around.

[Shadowferal]

[Something Wicked]

Nuff said, by people more knowledgeable on the subject than anyone in this thread.

But by all means, keep on trying to act like you made some brilliant deduction that no one ever thought of before.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Refer to my link in my previous post.

But here's a bit more.

Neal Adams, the legendary Batman artist and writer who frequently worked with O'Neil, agreed that the character's use of firearms was a product of him being undeveloped.

"Nobody seemed to care much about it," Adams said of Batman's early gun-toting. "Bill Finger and Bob Kane, who did Batman, had Batman actually regularly shoot a gun.

"But in Batman, I believe, issue #4, they discontinued Batman carrying a gun and I think Batman even commented that he doesn't carry guns," Adams said. "But that was 20 issues into Detective Comics, because Batman started there. So he was still carrying a gun for a couple years at the beginning."

Also, not really sure what point you were trying to prove with those scans...since he very demonstrably doesn't actually kill anyone wven while using the guns. He destroys a vampire, poses with a gun, and uses a gun to alert the police to come arrest some criminals he didn't kill.

I mean, you could have at least looked hard enough to find a few of those old comics where he does actually kill someone.

[TheramoreIsTheBomb]

This was definitely my favorite episode so far..!!!

[Logwyn]

Congratulations. You've just realized a completely different point, but then immediately didn't.

(Hint: Batman--the real Batman character, not the Synder/WB Batmen--loathes guns with a seething passion.)

And yet during the 1930s to 1950s in the Golden Years Batman uses guns often. If it wasn't for the Comics Code Authority developed in the 50s. I would speculate that Batman would still be a gun welding superhero from creation until now.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

And yet during the 1930s to 1950s in the Golden Years Batman uses guns often. If it wasn't for the Comics Code Authority developed in the 50s. I would speculate that Batman would still be a gun welding superhero from creation until now.

First, Batman debuted in 1939..so "during the 30'" doesn't mean much
Second, he stopped using guns well before the 50's. Comics Code had absolutely nothing to do with it.
Third, that was over 80 years ago.
Fourth, i already provided you a link discussing all of this.

[Something Wicked]

And yet during the 1930s to 1950s in the Golden Years Batman uses guns often. If it wasn't for the Comics Code Authority developed in the 50s. I would speculate that Batman would still be a gun welding superhero from creation until now.

No shit Sherlock. Try learning to read what people write.

- - - Updated - - -

This was definitely my favorite episode so far..!!!

I actually preferred the second one. This one felt a little off to me, though we did get another hint that the Power Broker is probably Zola (the old green cathode-ray tubed monitors in Shelby's office). Of course after WandaVision it's hard to judge if something's an actual clue or they're just being a jerk and messing with the audience.

Was nice seeing Zemo in his mask though. Just wish it was a bit closer to his comic one, though I completely understand why it isn't; they'd have to go a step beyond what they did with Spidey's mask and I don't think they valued it enough to invest that much into trying to do it.

[Nerraw]

The action with her was fine, but it had a real "John Wick takeoff" feel to it, in a bad way. Like they're furiously cribbing off those films notes. Even the neon cityscape of Majipoor seems pretty comparable to some of the stuff in the later two Wick films (I love the aesthetic they're developing for it, it's just the juxtaposition in this episode made their inspiration pretty clear to me, IMO).

That's because Derek Kolstad, creator of John Wick, wrote this episode. I believe he's attached to the next one as well.

[PACOX]

Man this show just keeps getting better and better. Fake Captain get shit on. Sam and Bucky killing 1000 people. Zemo, a villain with style. Sharon (who I think is lying). Wakanda. Boy, didn't take the Flag Smashers to go full terrorists did it?

- - - Updated - - -

That's because Derek Kolstad, creator of John Wick, wrote this episode. I believe he's attached to the next one as well.

That would explain the style and all the *pew bang pew*.

[Endus]

That's because Derek Kolstad, creator of John Wick, wrote this episode. I believe he's attached to the next one as well.

I wasn't aware, but at least he's not ripping off another creator. I still think it's close enough to be a little distracting. Not sure how I'd change that, really, though.

My bigger issue with the episode is just that they pulled back from the character development of Sharon, by suggesting she WANTS a pardon and to "come home", at all. She's super successful and doing great in Majipoor. Trying to come home seems like a big step backwards for her, back towards the character the audience mostly just didn't like because she came off as Knockoff Peggy, to the point that the writers had to abandon her and Steve getting together and find a way to get him back with Peggy Carter in the end.

This is a pretty minor quibble, though, and I'm not actually certain how honest Sharon's been with the boys about, like, any of this.

Here's some points to consider;

1> we see Sharon take out a couple people with a sniper rifle right before she reveals herself for the first time. Or do we? She isn't carrying the rifle, if you pay attention, and she's there so quick when the sniper was up several flights of stairs.

2> She knows Selby's dead, when it JUST happened. Literally no time for her to find that out unless she was behind it, or had eyes on Shelby and was nearby anyway. Both options raise questions.

3> She starts out at least strongly implying Shelby died because of these three guys, but given the above, she's almost certainly the one responsible (though I suspect she has a shooter in her employ rather than it being her personally).

4> She claims she can't even talk to her family, that her dad doesn't even know she's alive. Why? Majipoor doesn't have extradition. She could just pick up the phone, like, literally any time. As long as she doesn't talk business, she reveals nothing even if there's a tap on the line at her family's end. I prefer to believe the writers are smarter than this and Sharon's just lying to pull heartstrings and get Sam and Bucky to do what she wants.

5> Put it all together; she knew they were in town, she's probably behind Selby's death, she tries to put the blame on them and make it seem like they're asking a lot when they ask for help. I'm pretty sure she's working them for her own reasons, and it has nothing to do with any pardon.

In fact, let's go a step further down and start hypothesizing. Who's the Power Broker? We never get a name. We're never shown a face. Why isn't Sharon worried about offing one of the Power Broker's top people, Selby? Why does she just . . . have a car and driver waiting after the container shootout?

My bet? Sharon's the Power Broker, and has been for years. She's working the guys to get the serum back. She even offed the scientist and his lab, VERY explosively, because she's got the formula and can produce it without him. That's a BIG guess, but it explains why she'd be willing to blow him and his lab up, and it keeps any of that from falling into anyone else's hands, now that Sam and Bucky know about it. And we know he worked out the formula, because there's 20 doses out there. She may have been willing to let him work on producing more, but now that Sam and Bucky have traced it there, he's a liability. Boom, no more liability.

Plus, the title of the episode is literally "The Power Broker", and we never see or encounter them, not even indirectly. Unless it's Sharon. You'd think, if the Power Broker wasn't a central character, they'd have called the episode "Majipoor" or something.

I'll freely admit that everything from "points to consider" on basically came to me as I was writing it. I hadn't connected the dots that way when I opened the post. I may be overlooking something. But it comes together pretty nicely, doesn't it?

[Something Wicked]

My bigger issue with the episode is just that they pulled back from the character development of Sharon, by suggesting she WANTS a pardon and to "come home", at all. She's super successful and doing great in Majipoor. Trying to come home seems like a big step backwards for her, back towards the character the audience mostly just didn't like because she came off as Knockoff Peggy, to the point that the writers had to abandon her and Steve getting together and find a way to get him back with Peggy Carter in the end.

Except given the character's past, and her last scene in the episode, it's pretty clear that she's deep undercover and had to pretend to be after a pardon to keep Falcon in the dark. But being who she was, she couldn't stand by and let them die either, so had to step in despite that.

[Endus]

Except given the character's past, and her last scene in the episode, it's pretty clear that she's deep undercover and had to pretend to be after a pardon to keep Falcon in the dark. But being who she was, she couldn't stand by and let them die either, so had to step in despite that.

Why are we assuming she's undercover, at all?

Refresh and go back a post and read what I just hypothesized. I think when you scratch the surface, the show's trying to tell us that Sharon's a lying liar about everything, and is actually the Power Broker, herself.

Plus, if she WERE undercover, she'd already have a pardon. She wouldn't need Sam and Bucky. The "I'm still on the run" thing would have to just be a cover story, not how it really is.

[Something Wicked]

Why are we assuming she's undercover, at all?

Refresh and go back a post and read what I just hypothesized. I think when you scratch the surface, the show's trying to tell us that Sharon's a lying liar about everything, and is actually the Power Broker, herself.

Uh. Yeah, no.

Lying? Yes. Power Broker? No.

[formerShandalay]

I wasn't aware, but at least he's not ripping off another creator. I still think it's close enough to be a little distracting. Not sure how I'd change that, really, though.

My bigger issue with the episode is just that they pulled back from the character development of Sharon, by suggesting she WANTS a pardon and to "come home", at all. She's super successful and doing great in Majipoor. Trying to come home seems like a big step backwards for her, back towards the character the audience mostly just didn't like because she came off as Knockoff Peggy, to the point that the writers had to abandon her and Steve getting together and find a way to get him back with Peggy Carter in the end.

This is a pretty minor quibble, though, and I'm not actually certain how honest Sharon's been with the boys about, like, any of this.

Here's some points to consider;

1> we see Sharon take out a couple people with a sniper rifle right before she reveals herself for the first time. Or do we? She isn't carrying the rifle, if you pay attention, and she's there so quick when the sniper was up several flights of stairs.

2> She knows Selby's dead, when it JUST happened. Literally no time for her to find that out unless she was behind it, or had eyes on Shelby and was nearby anyway. Both options raise questions.

3> She starts out at least strongly implying Shelby died because of these three guys, but given the above, she's almost certainly the one responsible (though I suspect she has a shooter in her employ rather than it being her personally).

4> She claims she can't even talk to her family, that her dad doesn't even know she's alive. Why? Majipoor doesn't have extradition. She could just pick up the phone, like, literally any time. As long as she doesn't talk business, she reveals nothing even if there's a tap on the line at her family's end. I prefer to believe the writers are smarter than this and Sharon's just lying to pull heartstrings and get Sam and Bucky to do what she wants.

5> Put it all together; she knew they were in town, she's probably behind Selby's death, she tries to put the blame on them and make it seem like they're asking a lot when they ask for help. I'm pretty sure she's working them for her own reasons, and it has nothing to do with any pardon.

In fact, let's go a step further down and start hypothesizing. Who's the Power Broker? We never get a name. We're never shown a face. Why isn't Sharon worried about offing one of the Power Broker's top people, Selby? Why does she just . . . have a car and driver waiting after the container shootout?

My bet? Sharon's the Power Broker, and has been for years. She's working the guys to get the serum back. She even offed the scientist and his lab, VERY explosively, because she's got the formula and can produce it without him. That's a BIG guess, but it explains why she'd be willing to blow him and his lab up, and it keeps any of that from falling into anyone else's hands, now that Sam and Bucky know about it. And we know he worked out the formula, because there's 20 doses out there. She may have been willing to let him work on producing more, but now that Sam and Bucky have traced it there, he's a liability. Boom, no more liability.

Plus, the title of the episode is literally "The Power Broker", and we never see or encounter them, not even indirectly. Unless it's Sharon. You'd think, if the Power Broker wasn't a central character, they'd have called the episode "Majipoor" or something.

I'll freely admit that everything from "points to consider" on basically came to me as I was writing it. I hadn't connected the dots that way when I opened the post. I may be overlooking something. But it comes together pretty nicely, doesn't it?

One thing to add, Sharon was working for the CIA and the CIA were the ones that employed Nagel after Hydra. This show takes place about half a year after the Blip and somehow Nagel has already made contact with the Powerbroker, gotten his former research back and created 20 vials of Serum. So I think the CIA hasn't stopped the research at all and Sharon is their main operative in Madripoor, because it's not an official 'mission' and she has to keep her cover of 'uh oh I have never been pardoned' running. If it's not the actual CIA it's a part of them gone rogue. The only moment I thought Sharon was actually surprised was when Zemo shot Nagel, she did not expect that and it was not part of her plan.
My point here being, it seems a bit too quick for Nagel to have started from scratch, but if he went to the CIA after coming back, got told he'd not be needed and then was contacted by a 'former' CIA operative to hop over to Madripoor, where all of his research is already waiting for him the timeline would make a lot more sense to me.

[Ophenia]

2> She knows Selby's dead, when it JUST happened. Literally no time for her to find that out unless she was behind it, or had eyes on Shelby and was nearby anyway. Both options raise questions.

Aren’t everyone informed about that by the text message rewarding them with 10k BTC, literally seconds after it happens ?

[Endus]

Aren’t everyone informed about that by the text message rewarding them with 10k BTC, literally seconds after it happens ?

But again, who knows Selby died and who did it, and has the capacity to issue that kind of bounty, that quickly?

How was Sharon in place to help out, if it wasn't her shooter who took out Selby? Majipoor's a big place, and if her network is good enough she automatically picks up that Sam and Bucky and Zemo have walked into the city within minutes, she's clearly way more dialed in than she lets on, even if she isn't the Power Broker herself.

Who named the three of them as the suspects?

The sequence of events we're given (the value of streaming: I can just check directly) is that;
1> Selby hears Sam's sister call him "Sam", and orders her men to shoot them all.
2> Selby is immediately shot dead by a sniper.
3> The two guards quickly get taken out by the boys.
4> There's no more threat, because Zemo takes a second to think while Sam and Bucky check their weapons (which Zemo immediately makes them dump, which is just funny).

And then they're on the street, and the bounty comes in right as they leave.

The guards probably aren't awake yet, and certainly wouldn't have pull to get that bounty placed. They might know who to call, but even then, they'd know it was the sniper.

It wouldn't be people in the club or outside reacting to the gunshots; the boys leave without issue and Selby had just ordered her guards to shoot them, so clearly guns being fired isn't an automatic danger signal that would provoke a response.

Literally the only person who is conscious and knows they were even in the room with Selby when she died, is the sniper. Unless the Power Broker was watching a live security feed we're not shown, or something. And anyone watching such a feed would know they weren't the ones who did it; none of them had a gun when Selby was shot.

Even if I'm wrong on my assumptions, nothing about the order of events as we know them makes sense as we're given them, if Sharon's telling the truth about basically anything. And I have enough faith in the writers that this isn't a big pile of mistakes because fuck you, it's just a comic book show, who cares right?

[formerShandalay]

Aren’t everyone informed about that by the text message rewarding them with 10k BTC, literally seconds after it happens ?

What I found strange about her in that scene wasn't so much that she knew Selby was dead, but she said Sam and Bucky killed her. She shot everyone who was after them, but not Selby? Plus she was obviously waiting for them outside, because she already saw them inside the bar and quickly vanished from there. So if it wasn't her, who shot Selby? And if she didn't actually want to help them (like she says later), why did she help them in the first place?
To me it all seemed like she was leading them by the nose. Almost literally


Edit:
Does anyone else think that Bucky may be playing another game here with Zemo and the Wakandans? My guess is, he planned for the Wakandans to show up, because he knows they still have beef with Zemo and that is actually why Zemo is not crossed off on his list, even though he was in jail. He wants the Wakandans to have him.