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  1. #41
    How is raid logging self harm exactly?

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by MMOTherapist View Post
    I used to believe NONE of this was real and was all propaganda, cheap excuse to implement Timegates left and right and get away with murder.
    But my opinion changed watching classic World Buff farm and logout till raid time meta...

    Stopped reading here.

    Who else here with an IQ above 75 that does not have "meta" in their regular vocabulary?

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenik View Post
    How is raid logging self harm exactly?
    WoW classic players were "forbidden" to play the game until raid time to not lose the buffs,
    They would get the buffs, logout and could never login to do other stuff they might enjoy.

    Well...no one was holding a gun to their heads...but they still decided to do this to be "optimal", have advantage over others or just to be more helpful.

    Who is at fault? The game environment or the min max plagued players ?

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    I mean... the community decreed they don't want limitless grind and Blizz obliged.

    Some outliers would sure love to have their 16 hours sessions, but that does not appear to be what the bulk actually wants.

    If it would be otherwise, you'd see it reflected ingame.
    Blizzard limiting limitless power creep grinds does not relate to making the conclusion or thinking it is yours to make about there being a 'moral imperative' as a game developer to look after the reckless habits of the consumer. Do it if you want, but as my original post was in response to, dont start assuming / putting it on developers of any art form a moral responsibility over the subjective viewers interpretations of value. In this case its wasting too much time, playing the damned game.

    Mind you I personally disagree with the standards put on developers in this regard, but never would i hold an individual to the standard that they are the all seeing eye looking out for me when they hand me a product they made. Its my job to determine how much of it is safe, not theirs. If they include a safety manual great, but there's a very unfine line between unsafe product and stupid user abusing a safe product.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by MMOTherapist View Post
    WoW classic players were "forbidden" to play the game until raid time to not lose the buffs,
    They would get the buffs, logout and could never login to do other stuff they might enjoy.

    Well...no one was holding a gun to their heads...but they still decided to do this to be "optimal", have advantage over others or just to be more helpful.

    Who is at fault? The game environment or the min max plagued players ?
    "Forbidden" lol. Youre making a lot up here and grossly over generalizing. You can get buffs any day of the week, up to and including raid day. The ONLY exception is DMF buffs and because it leaves on a Sunday, some players will opt to hold it for the next raid. Some people choose to raid log and play alts, but thats not "the plague of min max environment" lol.

    No ones at fault, because its not a problem. Some people choose to play this way and those that dont, find guilds that play more casually (there are plenty of them). I suspect you dont even play classic..
    Last edited by Daymanmb; 2021-04-03 at 01:29 AM.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenik View Post
    "Forbidden" lol. Youre making a lot up here and grossly over generalizing. You can get buffs any day of the week, up to and including raid day. The ONLY exception is DMF buffs and because it leaves on a Sunday, some players will opt to hold it for the next raid. Some people choose to raid log and play alts, but thats not "the plague of min max environment" lol.

    No ones at fault, because its not a problem. Some people choose to play this way and those that dont, find guilds that play more casually (there are plenty of them). I suspect you dont even play classic..
    I used to play Classic WoW and even though my guild was 100% chill about it, even my lazy ass felt some kind of pressure to get them.
    My lazyness was stronger in the end because once i died with the major buffs to the hands of many enemy faction players at raid entrance.
    So i said "never again"

    With that said, Blizzard disagrees with you about it "not being a problem...because i assume you already know about the "changes" right? Is on MMO-C frontpage.

    I assume is a problem then?

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by MMOTherapist View Post
    I used to play Classic WoW and even though my guild was 100% chill about it, even my lazy ass felt some kind of pressure to get them.
    My lazyness was stronger in the end because once i died with the major buffs to the hands of many enemy faction players at raid entrance.
    So i said "never again"

    With that said, Blizzard disagrees with you about it "not being a problem...because i assume you already know about the "changes" right? Is on MMO-C frontpage.

    I assume is a problem then?
    Yet, you werent in any way "forbidden" from playing, as you put it. Curious. If its not your experience, it makes me wonder why you would generalize, "WoW classic players were "forbidden" to play the game until raid time to not lose the buffs", when you know for a fact that its not true.

    The Chronoboon Displacer is a nice change, but it doesnt change the fact that you can get those buffs the day of the raid. This change will definitely make dying on your way to the raid a lot less disheartening and I certainly welcome it.
    Last edited by Daymanmb; 2021-04-03 at 02:42 AM.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by TEHPALLYTANK View Post
    Yeah, from WotLK through MoP it was spend 20-30 minutes a day for those same rewards. Blizzard then introduced WQs and turned daily hubs from 10-20 minute affairs into 30-45 minute grinds that required you to go all over the damn map on a ground mount. I liked when it required less time per character, because then I could enjoy the fun content (raiding) on more classes, because the amount of grind needed prior to raiding was short.

    There wasn't much of a time where I liked WoW outside of raiding, so when more stuff was added outside of raiding it just added to a list of what were functionally chores to me. I don't want chores in a game I'm playing for entertainment.
    Not really sure what you're coming from. From a raiding standpoint the only "chore" you need to do is Torghast for ~5 weeks until you have your raiding leggo. Everything else is optional. And what rewards were available in 20-30 minutes that suddenly became 30-45 "grinds"? Weird. I wasn't aware you could raid on more than one character at a time. And talking about more stuff outside raiding, make sure you never go anywhere near classic.
    The most difficult thing to do is accept that there is nothing wrong with things you don't like and accept that people can like things you don't.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenik View Post
    Yet, you werent in any way "forbidden" from playing, as you put it. Curious. If its not your experience, it makes me wonder why you would generalize, "WoW classic players were "forbidden" to play the game until raid time to not lose the buffs", when you know for a fact that its not true.

    The Chronoboon Displacer is a nice change, but it doesnt change the fact that you can get those buffs the day of the raid. This change will definitely make dying on your way to the raid a lot less disheartening and I certainly welcome it.
    Just reading but you are really just nitpicking and grasping for straws here.

    He obviously didnt mean "forbidden" as he wasnt allowed to play the character. But the character was locked since you really didnt want to lose world buffs.

    Insane system and it was so stupid Blizzard changes it as Early as the first expansion.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by MMOTherapist View Post
    Who is at fault? The game environment or the min max plagued players ?
    This is prime example of making a problem out of thin air. It just doesn't exist. Let them do what they want.

    Im tired of playing games that are essentially a children bicycle with additional set of wheels to prevent you from falling. Im tired of being handheld on every step

    There is no "fault" here.
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  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMOTherapist View Post
    Its a mechanic in the game to prevent players from.......playing in unhealthy ways or unfun ways
    I know it sounds sus and dishonest and even contradictory.
    If is "unfun" to play like this...why do people do it? lol...

    But the most recent example is the World Buff meta in classic wow.

    In order to be optimal in classic wow you must logout of the game in order to keep all the buffs for raid time.

    Other examples are timegates
    And im probably missing others i dont know/pay attention to and would like to know about
    Ah, okay. Timers basically. Well, as they currently are now on progression servers is fine. Though, Classic not so much.
    FOMO: "Fear Of Missing Out", also commonly known as people with a mental issue of managing time and activities, many expecting others to fit into their schedule so they don't miss out on things to come. If FOMO becomes a problem for you, do seek help, it can be a very unhealthy lifestyle..

  12. #52
    Immortal TEHPALLYTANK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Not really sure what you're coming from. From a raiding standpoint the only "chore" you need to do is Torghast for ~5 weeks until you have your raiding leggo. Everything else is optional. And what rewards were available in 20-30 minutes that suddenly became 30-45 "grinds"? Weird. I wasn't aware you could raid on more than one character at a time. And talking about more stuff outside raiding, make sure you never go anywhere near classic.
    Dailies, I'm talking about dailies. In WotLK through MoP dailies were set in hubs and rarely took more than 10-15 minutes for an entire faction's dailies for the day. A single WQ can take up to 5 minutes, and they're spread out across a zone instead of being centered around a hub which adds in another 2+ minutes travel time between every single WQ. WQs were a massive step backwards in terms of time-efficiency, but they continue to stick them everywhere. Daily hubs were far better than WQs, and I'd rather the game go back entirely to the daily hub system and remove WQs entirely.

    The rewards from dailies often overlapped somewhat with dungeons (in the form of Valor points in MoP for example), and most dungeons would also only take anywhere from 10-15 minutes once the first tier of the expansion was partially done since people would massively overgear 5mans by that point.

    You being ignorant of the concept of raiding on more than 1 character per week is pretty much a problem of your lack of imagination and knowledge (for WotLK->MoP I raided on anywhere from 1-4 characters per weekly lockout, and I knew several people who did the same). Like I said, the fun part of the game for me was raiding. Since that was the only really enjoyable part and lockouts existed, I decided to enjoy it by playing multiple classes and seeing the fights from different perspectives and with different groups of people.
    Last edited by TEHPALLYTANK; 2021-04-03 at 10:55 AM.
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    Intelligence is like four wheel drive, it's not going to make you unstoppable, it just sort of tends to get you stuck in more remote places.
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    If you want to be disgusted, next time you kiss someone remember you've got your mouth on the end of a tube which has shit at the other end, held back by a couple of valves.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Askyl View Post
    Just reading but you are really just nitpicking and grasping for straws here.

    He obviously didnt mean "forbidden" as he wasnt allowed to play the character. But the character was locked since you really didnt want to lose world buffs.

    Insane system and it was so stupid Blizzard changes it as Early as the first expansion.
    Oh alright, I should infer what he actually means despite the words he uses lol. Even if what you say is what he meant, its still not true.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by ONCHEhap View Post
    There's an issue with people unable to control themselves and playing 16 hours in a row if it means getting a 0.05% advantage over someone else.
    You can argue that the devs have a moral imperative to not enable such behaviours
    I can argue that very easily. Learn to control yourself. If you can not do that, seek help.
    If you refuse, thats just natural selection. If thats what you chose to do, nobody has the right to make decisions on your behalf.

  15. #55
    The Unstoppable Force Super Kami Dende's Avatar
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    Anything that actively encourages you to not play the game is bad for the game.

    World Buffs are one of the most retarded things they kept in Classic.

  16. #56
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    I don't like min-max playing style. And I don't like when company tries to appease to those kinds of players. If they're doing stupid things, that's up to them. But when company changes the game to appease to them, it means that other players now incentivized to min-max, because obviously at this point the game is designed around that kind of playstyle.

    So yeah, I don't like it. But I like the limits, so the distance between player who does not min-max and player who goes all in, is not that big. Limits should stay. Because they actually de-incentivize so players to min-max and that's a good thing.
    Last edited by vsb; 2021-04-03 at 12:56 PM.

  17. #57
    There is no doubt whatsoever that daily/weekly/monthly lockouts are a good thing. Otherwise plenty of people would be compelled to play non stop. This is not only bad personally for the people who choose to destroy their life like that, but for everyone else because healthy individuals can never compete with that and thus the whole game turns into a "who can play more" contest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    I can argue that very easily. Learn to control yourself. If you can not do that, seek help.
    If you refuse, thats just natural selection. If thats what you chose to do, nobody has the right to make decisions on your behalf.
    Well, you are wrong. Very clearly someone has the right to make decisions on your behalf because Blizzard is doing it all the time in WoW. You are playing their game after all.

    The opinion that people should be completely free to do anything to do point of hurting themselves is an opinion expressed by some people around the world. Thankfully, in most places these people are the minority.
    Last edited by Azerate; 2021-04-03 at 12:56 PM.
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    I want Activision-Blizzard to burn, but for crimes against gaming, not because they got me too'd.

  18. #58
    The Lightbringer vian's Avatar
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    I hate artificial time-gating.

    It's the no.1 reason i dropped the game after the first month these last few expansions.
    Quote Originally Posted by bizzy View Post
    yeh but lava is just very hot water

  19. #59
    You still here, even after this: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ever-MMO-Champ

    You do enjoy self harming, huh?
    The funniest jokes on MMO-Champ in order: (This signature is not calling out anyone in SPECIFIC and is thus not breaking any rules)
    1: All the moderators that does not know how to handle this webpage.
    2: Whoever set up the auto-bot that does not know the rules.
    3: The rules and guidelines themselves.
    Speaking of jokes:https://i.imgur.com/MaBzzAR.png

  20. #60
    Guess it is a necessary evil when people fail to teach their kids self-control.
    Now you see it. Now you don't.

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