1. #1021
    Quote Originally Posted by Tadkins View Post
    That is the genuine feeling I've gotten from WoW as it's described in Shadowlands, and this thread is evidence that my suspicions are pretty much on the money. I just know how harsh the community is and up until now I've just kept to myself filling my collections tabs, and getting as many achievements as I could on my own. Many of those achievements happen to be in random battlegrounds though and that's primarily why I played them. But it seems like even that is lacking and truly the e-sports crowd and the hardcore folks have won. I've come here looking for a reason to sub again once my computer is fixed and all the attacks I've gotten in this thread have said enough. There's just no place in the game left for people like us.

    I am currently looking at other games. Once I get a new computer, perhaps it might be time to finally try Skyrim. My sister and I bought a Switch together and I'm also interested in Fire Emblem: Three Houses. I'm also currently playing P99 EQ on my busted computer (which is arguably more group dependent but eh I'm playing a necromancer there, can do plenty on my own ). But in the months I've gone looking for a reason to sub to WoW...I just haven't found it. You've seen the attacks on this thread alone I'm sure.
    I personally think that both Skyrim and ESO is better on console. FFXIV too when you hook a mouse and keyboard into it, there are too many keybinds to fit on to a controller in that game in my opinion. You can probably get a PS4 dirt cheap these days (FFXIV isn't out for xbox yet but it will be).

  2. #1022
    Quote Originally Posted by Echocho View Post
    I personally think that both Skyrim and ESO is better on console. FFXIV too when you hook a mouse and keyboard into it, there are too many keybinds to fit on to a controller in that game in my opinion. You can probably get a PS4 dirt cheap these days (FFXIV isn't out for xbox yet but it will be).
    Dunno if I have it in me to buy another console hehe. Did get the stimulus yesterday so I do have options, and I do want to fix the computer situation in some way. Just need to be very careful in picking the right one.

  3. #1023
    The Lightbringer Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stardrift View Post
    Felt like I finally left an abusive relationship when I deleted my old WoW account to make a new one that I could let go more easily.

    Certainly didn't think "thank god" would first come to mind after deleting it. I mostly farm gold now to pay for my sub, clear normal raids once just to say I've been there (would do heroic but what the hell is the point lol), and then unsub. Totally skipping out on 9.1, as there is nothing there for me, or anyone really.

    The one thing that's left me the most heartbroken was the story partway through BFA. I could get over Sylvanas' moustache twirling, trees burning, azerite nonsense, but I absolutely could not get over what Danuser did to N'zoth, Azshara, Nyalotha and Nazjatar. That, for the first time, felt like an actual slap in the face. It was at that point I just turned around and said fuck it, the main thing I've stuck around for has been ruined.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I love ESO as well, but I play it as a single player game mostly. There isn't much for endgame, as there's like nothing for progression.

    New dungeons and raids are cool and all but there's nothing that'll get you out of your "build".
    Why would you delete your wow account full of cosmetics/achievements just to create a new one without that stuff? Makes 0 sense haha.

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  4. #1024
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    Why would you delete your wow account full of cosmetics/achievements just to create a new one without that stuff? Makes 0 sense haha.
    It's easier to walk away from something you haven't invested a lot of time into. It's the same concept as divorcing your wife of 10 years that you have a wife and 3 kids with VS breaking up with some girl you've been seeing casually for a month.

    Makes complete sense if you know that you're gonna be unhappy some time in the future.

  5. #1025
    The Lightbringer Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echocho View Post
    It's easier to walk away from something you haven't invested a lot of time into. It's the same concept as divorcing your wife of 10 years that you have a wife and 3 kids with VS breaking up with some girl you've been seeing casually for a month.

    Makes complete sense if you know that you're gonna be unhappy some time in the future.
    No, its like going out of an abusive relationship and immediately going into the next abusive one. It really makes no sense for me, the game is about cosmetics after all. *shrugs*

    #TEAMGIRAFFE

  6. #1026
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    If a guy wants to delete it, then whatever. People should do what they want to do.

    /shrug

  7. #1027
    Quote Originally Posted by Tadkins View Post
    That is a good point. It's just depressing, lol. Everything is just...blegh.



    Confession time, I've never actually played Skyrim. ESO seems appealing but I should probably play that first.

    Thinking I might finally look into that once my computer situation is handled.
    If you enjoy Skyrim, I highly suggest heavily modding Morrowind and Oblivion. Morrowind is another kind of adventure, though.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    Why would you delete your wow account full of cosmetics/achievements just to create a new one without that stuff? Makes 0 sense haha.
    They're what kept me so attached to the game. If I could get rid of that, I could just put down the game like no problem whenever I want.

  8. #1028
    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    This is where it is just plain embarrassing. Learning to use the potty is a skill. Speaking English is a skill. Cooking scrambled eggs is a skill. I am genuinely sorry for you.
    I'm so proud of you for understanding the English language.

    Now use your "skill" and finish reading what I wrote. Hint: It's not "skill" in the way you people use it. You people use the word "skill" as in something special above and beyond what mere mortals could ever hope to achieve, let alone those 'filthy casuals.'

    Dunning-Kruger Effect in full effect with this one.

  9. #1029
    Quote Originally Posted by Nite92 View Post
    Pretty irrelevant unless you provide infos about if there was a major content update or not.
    Delete - i suck at quoting.

  10. #1030
    Quote Originally Posted by Stardrift View Post
    If you enjoy Skyrim, I highly suggest heavily modding Morrowind and Oblivion. Morrowind is another kind of adventure, though.
    People here are always telling me to go play a single player game. Maybe it's time to give it a shot. What does WoW have to offer someone like me today anyway? Let the esport lovers have their game.

  11. #1031
    Quote Originally Posted by Electric Lighter View Post
    So... your entire argument boils down to... that last boss drops loot instead of just vanity items? To be frank most raiders wouldn't care if the last boss just drops vanity items all it would is accelerate sales to get gold for the next tier.
    Yes, that was my entire point. I wasn't trying to be sneaky or coy. Just saying that. It was for people who argue that questers don't need better gear, but raiders do. It's a hollow argument. Everyone (or practically everyone) is playing to progress their characters. So while raiders don't need the gear, they still want gear from that last boss, and it tends to be some of the best gear in the game.

    "Take the time to sit down and talk with your adversaries. You will learn something, and they will learn something from you. When two enemies are talking, they are not fighting. It's when the talking ceases that the ground becomes fertile for violence. So keep the conversation going."
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  12. #1032
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragedaug View Post
    Yes, that was my entire point. I wasn't trying to be sneaky or coy. Just saying that. It was for people who argue that questers don't need better gear, but raiders do. It's a hollow argument. Everyone (or practically everyone) is playing to progress their characters. So while raiders don't need the gear, they still want gear from that last boss, and it tends to be some of the best gear in the game.
    Well said. Everyone likes to progress and everyone benefits from upgrading their gear. And despite what many have said here there are places in the game even non-rated folks could use better gear. No one likes to be stagnant. Don't know why folks here are having such a hard time with that concept.

  13. #1033
    Quote Originally Posted by Tadkins View Post
    People here are always telling me to go play a single player game. Maybe it's time to give it a shot. What does WoW have to offer someone like me today anyway? Let the esport lovers have their game.
    The problem with single player games is that they end. MMORPGs don't which is the main draw for a lot of people. There are however a lot of good MMORPGs that cater to the solo player. WoW is pretty much the odd one out that still has a huge boner for premade super difficult instanced content and if you're not interested in that you can gtfo. Some MMORPGs that are much better for a casual and/or solo player that doesn't cater to the e-peen "duel me brah" type dudes that keep linking their parses: FFXIV, ESO, SWTOR to name a few.

  14. #1034
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    The problem with single player games is that they end. MMORPGs don't which is the main draw for a lot of people. There are however a lot of good MMORPGs that cater to the solo player. WoW is pretty much the odd one out that still has a huge boner for premade super difficult instanced content and if you're not interested in that you can gtfo. Some MMORPGs that are much better for a casual and/or solo player that doesn't cater to the e-peen "duel me brah" type dudes that keep linking their parses: FFXIV, ESO, SWTOR to name a few.
    That is true. Probably why I stuck with WoW for so long, there was always something new to look forward to. The community has always been harsh but at least the devs weren't leaking utter contempt from their pores for the solo playerbase until now.

    I may end up looking at FFXIV or ESO, if not just go stick with solo games. I also heard Skyrim was basically unending due to all the mods and stuff they got out there. But yeah as it's clear from this and other threads and forums, the non-competitive and the non-perfect do not have a place in this game anymore. I just read a thread on the official forums about how someone posted a "chill run +6" group that didn't go well and people were blaming him for trying. This is the state of the community we are at now.

  15. #1035
    Quote Originally Posted by Tadkins View Post
    That is true. Probably why I stuck with WoW for so long, there was always something new to look forward to. The community has always been harsh but at least the devs weren't leaking utter contempt from their pores for the solo playerbase until now.

    I may end up looking at FFXIV or ESO, if not just go stick with solo games. I also heard Skyrim was basically unending due to all the mods and stuff they got out there. But yeah as it's clear from this and other threads and forums, the non-competitive and the non-perfect do not have a place in this game anymore. I just read a thread on the official forums about how someone posted a "chill run +6" group that didn't go well and people were blaming him for trying. This is the state of the community we are at now.
    I think you are wrong, and this is why I think so

    Wow has difficult group content, you can't get that gear solo very easily, that is true, but every other game is pretty much wow just - the group content.

    If you play your average MMO on the market, it ends at current 203 ilvl, after that you can fish and craft and stuff to make some gold, but no matter if you want some further challenge or if you are happy with what you just did, you can't go beyond 203. (This is obviously comparing the "end game gear" to wows, translated to ilvl for an easy comparison)
    What wow does is give you the option, if you don't like the challenges above 203, you are free to stop there and do the same stuff you do in the other MMOs, quest some, fish, run old content, run dungeons and raids (LFR and Heroic) for story, collect stuff.
    But if you feel, hey, I'd like some additional challenge, you can go on, attempt normal raiding, higher m+ keys etc. The other MMOs simply lack this.

  16. #1036
    Warchief Freedom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sialina View Post
    I think you are wrong, and this is why I think so

    Wow has difficult group content, you can't get that gear solo very easily, that is true, but every other game is pretty much wow just - the group content.

    If you play your average MMO on the market, it ends at current 203 ilvl, after that you can fish and craft and stuff to make some gold, but no matter if you want some further challenge or if you are happy with what you just did, you can't go beyond 203. (This is obviously comparing the "end game gear" to wows, translated to ilvl for an easy comparison)
    What wow does is give you the option, if you don't like the challenges above 203, you are free to stop there and do the same stuff you do in the other MMOs, quest some, fish, run old content, run dungeons and raids (LFR and Heroic) for story, collect stuff.
    But if you feel, hey, I'd like some additional challenge, you can go on, attempt normal raiding, higher m+ keys etc. The other MMOs simply lack this.
    It seems to me that people of his mindset or those like @Osmeric won't be happy until their preferred level of WoW attainment is the ONLY level you can aspire to. For whatever reason, they seem to take offense at there being higher harder content because it makes them feel bad somehow.

    Another question I don't think has been adequately answered - when exactly was WoW so single player, or casual friendly, to the point where there wasn't some upper tier level player running around super powerful compared to "LFR heroes" or "world quest players"? People in T3 Naxx gear utterly deleted people in casual raid T1 gear, let alone dungeon blues. TBC upper PVP/Sunwell gear made you ridiculously strong. WotLK wasn't exactly super casual friendly for that either, as a mix of upper tier PVP gear and ICC 25H gear let you do ridiculous things, such as play Prot warrior in PVP/Arena and do well from what I remember talking to one such player.

    For WoW's second era, Cataclysm made it fairly hard to get good gear earlier on - my first epic weapon there was a PVP 2hander - but I can't remember much aside from hearing about DS trinkets making PVP a joke for those who had PVE trinkets, like Vial of Shadows or Cunning of the Cruel. MoP, you still had a large gap in gear between those who raided then Heroic, normal and LFR. From what I know of WoD, sure the PVP gear was much more easily obtainable with Ashran, but that PVP gear wasn't terribly good in PVE since you lacked set bonuses.

    WoW's third era, Legion BFA and SL, are probably the era some people would point to and say, "Us casuals don't like that," but... where exactly was WoW ever a level playing field? Sure, Legion had PVP stat templates etc, but the wider community hated it and it was canned in BFA.

    You're looking for something that didn't exist, this mythical time in WoW where there weren't higher difficulties and tiers to aspire to or work towards. Where just messing around picking herbs and never setting foot in a true raid would somehow let you compete with people who'd been playing and gearing since launch.
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    Ok, I give up. This is pointless.
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  17. #1037
    Quote Originally Posted by Sialina View Post
    I think you are wrong, and this is why I think so

    Wow has difficult group content, you can't get that gear solo very easily, that is true, but every other game is pretty much wow just - the group content.

    If you play your average MMO on the market, it ends at current 203 ilvl, after that you can fish and craft and stuff to make some gold, but no matter if you want some further challenge or if you are happy with what you just did, you can't go beyond 203. (This is obviously comparing the "end game gear" to wows, translated to ilvl for an easy comparison)
    What wow does is give you the option, if you don't like the challenges above 203, you are free to stop there and do the same stuff you do in the other MMOs, quest some, fish, run old content, run dungeons and raids (LFR and Heroic) for story, collect stuff.
    But if you feel, hey, I'd like some additional challenge, you can go on, attempt normal raiding, higher m+ keys etc. The other MMOs simply lack this.
    My concern is that we no longer have challenging solo content as well. It's fine that there is challenging group content, but it's a hopeless situation when that is all there is, and folks like me struggle with that sort of content for reasons that have nothing to do with the content itself. It's the harsh and exclusive community, it's the difficulty in finding an open and accepting community, it's the difficulty in finding people you can click with that will let you learn and let you keep playing while you do. Folks in this thread chastise solo players but don't stop to think why they are solo players in the first place.

    In the past we did have decent solo gearing options. That's all I advocate for, are those options back.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom View Post
    It seems to me that people of his mindset or those like @Osmeric won't be happy until their preferred level of WoW attainment is the ONLY level you can aspire to. For whatever reason, they seem to take offense at there being higher harder content because it makes them feel bad somehow.

    Another question I don't think has been adequately answered - when exactly was WoW so single player, or casual friendly, to the point where there wasn't some upper tier level player running around super powerful compared to "LFR heroes" or "world quest players"? People in T3 Naxx gear utterly deleted people in casual raid T1 gear, let alone dungeon blues. TBC upper PVP/Sunwell gear made you ridiculously strong. WotLK wasn't exactly super casual friendly for that either, as a mix of upper tier PVP gear and ICC 25H gear let you do ridiculous things, such as play Prot warrior in PVP/Arena and do well from what I remember talking to one such player.

    For WoW's second era, Cataclysm made it fairly hard to get good gear earlier on - my first epic weapon there was a PVP 2hander - but I can't remember much aside from hearing about DS trinkets making PVP a joke for those who had PVE trinkets, like Vial of Shadows or Cunning of the Cruel. MoP, you still had a large gap in gear between those who raided then Heroic, normal and LFR. From what I know of WoD, sure the PVP gear was much more easily obtainable with Ashran, but that PVP gear wasn't terribly good in PVE since you lacked set bonuses.

    WoW's third era, Legion BFA and SL, are probably the era some people would point to and say, "Us casuals don't like that," but... where exactly was WoW ever a level playing field? Sure, Legion had PVP stat templates etc, but the wider community hated it and it was canned in BFA.

    You're looking for something that didn't exist, this mythical time in WoW where there weren't higher difficulties and tiers to aspire to or work towards. Where just messing around picking herbs and never setting foot in a true raid would somehow let you compete with people who'd been playing and gearing since launch.
    Conquest gear through random BGs throughout multiple expansions. Horrific visions in BfA. All great solo options. What was so wrong with that? Even in later Vanilla we had great honor gear that you could earn that was almost as good as Naxx gear.

    For the record I thought templates were a great thing and if we can't have gear, I'd be happy with either templates or ilvl brackets in BGs. I'd wait an extra 5 minutes in a queue if it meant a good game where I'm not sitting at the graveyard all game because some hardcore mythic raiders decided to queue up and pick on lesser geared folks.

    What is the point in paying a sub to the game if I'm just going to be picked on all day with no hope of ever fighting back? Still trying to get a good answer to that. Should I not have a place in the game that's higher than punching bag?
    Last edited by Tadkins; 2021-04-04 at 11:20 PM.

  18. #1038
    Quote Originally Posted by Tadkins View Post
    My concern is that we no longer have challenging solo content as well. It's fine that there is challenging group content, but it's a hopeless situation when that is all there is, and folks like me struggle with that sort of content for reasons that have nothing to do with the content itself. It's the harsh and exclusive community, it's the difficulty in finding an open and accepting community, it's the difficulty in finding people you can click with that will let you learn and let you keep playing while you do. Folks in this thread chastise solo players but don't stop to think why they are solo players in the first place.

    In the past we did have decent solo gearing options. That's all I advocate for, are those options back.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Conquest gear through random BGs throughout multiple expansions. Horrific visions in BfA. All great solo options. What was so wrong with that? Even in later Vanilla we had great honor gear that you could earn that was almost as good as Naxx gear.

    For the record I thought templates were a great thing and if we can't have gear, I'd be happy with either templates or ilvl brackets in BGs. I'd wait an extra 5 minutes in a queue if it meant a good game where I'm not sitting at the graveyard all game because some hardcore mythic raiders decided to queue up and pick on lesser geared folks.
    I honestly don't think solo gearing has gotten worse, 8.3 had a good thing going with the visions, if you 5 masked you could get pretty geared solo. The current single player end game as I see it is Anima gear and your legendary, which requires Thorghast, preferably level 8, that could perhaps be a bit harder, but it's designed for slightly lower ilvls.

    I'm well aware that people enjoy playing solo, group content and pvp in all games will get bracketed, and people generally want to play with someone in their bracket or someone better, leading to everyone looking for someone better than themselves. It's a harsh environment. Most other MMOs however don't even have this option, it just stops after you get 203.

    Could there be something more challenging for solo players? I for sure wouldn't mind, I enjoyed both 5 mask visions and the mage tower when it was fresh, I think blizzard wanted Thorghast to have that spot this expansion, and I agree it could be way way more challenging.

  19. #1039
    Quote Originally Posted by Sialina View Post
    I honestly don't think solo gearing has gotten worse, 8.3 had a good thing going with the visions, if you 5 masked you could get pretty geared solo. The current single player end game as I see it is Anima gear and your legendary, which requires Thorghast, preferably level 8, that could perhaps be a bit harder, but it's designed for slightly lower ilvls.

    I'm well aware that people enjoy playing solo, group content and pvp in all games will get bracketed, and people generally want to play with someone in their bracket or someone better, leading to everyone looking for someone better than themselves. It's a harsh environment. Most other MMOs however don't even have this option, it just stops after you get 203.

    Could there be something more challenging for solo players? I for sure wouldn't mind, I enjoyed both 5 mask visions and the mage tower when it was fresh, I think blizzard wanted Thorghast to have that spot this expansion, and I agree it could be way way more challenging.
    It has gotten worse though. Where is my 5 mask option in Shadowlands?

    I care about gear because random battlegrounds are my favorite part of the game. Folks in this thread are essentially telling me that I'm not allowed to play random battlegrounds until I become a gladiator rated PvPer, a high key M+ runner, or a heroic/mythic raider.

  20. #1040
    Warchief Freedom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tadkins View Post
    Conquest gear through random BGs throughout multiple expansions. Horrific visions in BfA. All great solo options. What was so wrong with that? Even in later Vanilla we had great honor gear that you could earn that was almost as good as Naxx gear.

    For the record I thought templates were a great thing and if we can't have gear, I'd be happy with either templates or ilvl brackets in BGs. I'd wait an extra 5 minutes in a queue if it meant a good game where I'm not sitting at the graveyard all game because some hardcore mythic raiders decided to queue up and pick on lesser geared folks.

    What is the point in paying a sub to the game if I'm just going to be picked on all day with no hope of ever fighting back?
    OK, I have to admit I forgot about the small amount of conquest from random BG wins. I just always thought, "Wow, that's a really slow way to get things."

    The other things, like Horrific Visions - more options are good. Especially if they were truly challenging solo options. And the gap between a 200 player and a 226 player in SL is quite large from what I've heard - maybe that should be fixed.

    But I don't think you'll ever be able to get rid of the gear gap, or the time period where you are "paying your dues" to get geared. I remember grinding S2 Merc Glad gear on a newly 70 Fury(lol) Warrior in BC, and it was slow and painful, but at least it helped me learn how to play better.

    But you don't seem to mind slow, so I don't see why, say, a solo player could do Twisting Corridors and another challenging solo piece of content and get to, say, 213 ilvl. That would give you a better chance against group players. And the group players could still have some bonus for the innate difficulty spike in managing more than just yourself. Herding 19 cats is hard for Mythic raiding.

    I would certainly be more amenable to WoW if I could do difficult solo play content. Part of the problem is, though, if solo play content was as valid a gearing path as everything else, then things would need to be balanced around the solo play content. And they aren't even balanced from what I've heard, just trying to juggle M+, raiding and PVP. Classes like Mages would need to be buffed up in their solo capability to make things fairer.
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    Ok, I give up. This is pointless.
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