Why skilled player got so mad about casual getting better loot?

[razorpax]

Should just be something available all expansion long. Blizz is essentially saying "you're only welcome in the game a few months out of the cycle". I'm going to have been beyond losing interest by the time 9.3 hits.



MMORPG just means that you're playing in an online world filled with other players. There's no rule that says you need to be forced to play with everyone.

People convinently forget the RPG part too. Why aren't we adhering to that as well?

The rpg aspect is the story
The dungeons
The gearing
The combat

The notion that you need solo play to be an rpg is dumb

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When else have you been able to get a full set of gear near equal to normal raid difficulty within a few hours of hitting 60?

Legion and BfA

[AcidicSyn]

I don't understand. I can certainly understand not wanting to go to new territory of solo play being equal to group play, such as WQs and Torghast giving 226 items, or even really hard solo options giving 226 items, but what exactly is so horrible about going back to older models that still kept a gap between what can be achieved with solo play and group play, while still giving solo players options to progress?

Does it really matter if Tadkins jumps through hoops in difficult single player content or waits for a long time to accrue Conquest through random BG wins and gets 213 ilvl 2 weeks before the next patch when most hardcore or group players had that ilvl months ago?

You got 54 pages of people who care DEEPLY about what Tadkins can and cannot do lol (Ellieg for example, I am convinced is a masochist.)

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I still say, if we're going to have to adhere to that interpretation of the "MMO" definition, we should have to recognize and require the "RPG" part of it too.

"C'mere, I'll bash yer skull in wih me hammer, foul orc!"

Anyone not RPing their characters properly should face consequences. xD


That is the impression I'm honestly getting. "Submit to the Raiderio machine or die."

Does anyone else remember adding /s spam to their skill macros when the game launched?

/guilty

[Tyrilion]

That's because there aren't any. Casuals have gotten the short end of the stick this expansion. It's premade instanced content or gtfo.

I mean the Valor point system is more than we have had in the passed few expacs, I don't see how casuals have the short end of the stick ? and what's wrong with instanced content in an MMO ....

[AcidicSyn]

I mean the Valor point system is more than we have had in the passed few expacs, I don't see how casuals have the short end of the stick ? and what's wrong with instanced content in an MMO ....

There's nothing wrong with it. Not everyone likes it. Which is a valid preference. People who don't like instanced group content are playing the wrong game though. For some people that's a shame, these are the people who specifically want to play "Warcraft" not <insert other game here>. Unfortunately for them though, Warcraft is now WoW, and so if they want to "experience the story of Warcraft" they have to play WoW.

MMOs don't *need* to be about, or even have; instanced group content though. WoWs just not one of them and can't become one of them in any healthy way I can fathom.

[Tadkins]

There's nothing wrong with it. Not everyone likes it. Which is a valid preference. People who don't like instanced group content are playing the wrong game though. For some people that's a shame, these are the people who specifically want to play "Warcraft" not <insert other game here>. Unfortunately for them though, Warcraft is now WoW, and so if they want to "experience the story of Warcraft" they have to play WoW.

MMOs don't *need* to be about, or even have; instanced group content though. WoWs just not one of them and can't become one of them in any healthy way I can fathom.

Basically it for me. I've stuck with WoW because it is currently the Warcraft game. I've loved Warcraft since the days of Orcs and Humans. The world has been a great source of inspiration and happiness almost of my life. I own so much merchandise I've collected over the years. So having to give it up is...saddening, to say the least.

But a shy, sensitive, and non-perfect player like me seems to have little chance in this current world of metas, forced grouping, addon adherence, raiderio, warcraft logs, and celebrated toxicity. It is genuinely depressing. I came here to try and be proven wrong, that maybe there is hope out there, but 55 pages later...

[kaminaris]

But a shy, sensitive, and non-perfect player like me seems to have little chance in this current world of metas, forced grouping, addon adherence, raiderio, warcraft logs, and celebrated toxicity. It is genuinely depressing. I came here to try and be proven wrong, that maybe there is hope out there, but 55 pages later...

You are mostly arguing against players that are responsible for current state of the game, yet they complain, not understanding that. They basically wanted everything that is non-instanced to be completely irrelevant, because unless open world content irrelevant it is forced. LOL.

God forbid if you get something good from open world content as it would disturb raidlogging environment.

[Soon-TM]

what exactly is so horrible about going back to older models that still kept a gap between what can be achieved with solo play and group play, while still giving solo players options to progress?

Many mediocre players would get hard feelings, that's why. And by mediocre, I mean folks who pose as top quality players, but actually are barely able to kill the last boss of the patch, even after the usual barrage of nerfs (which in the case of CN have been absolutely hilarious ).

[Argorwal]

I think the solo/casual options will come in 9.2. Blizzard are probably panicking right now, casuals are leaving left and right to their main competitor. They won't have time to put a bandaid in place for 9.1 so they'll continue to bleed.

Blizzard treated their casual playerbase like shit, WoW has lost more than half of their active players and FFXIV has more than doubled theirs.

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Multiplayer doesn't mean coopative instanced PVE. PUBG is a multiplayer game and it has none of that.

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Apparently yes. It's form manual groups or gtfo, so people are understandably getting the fuck out.

WoW reached its peak popularity with rating requirements on PvP gear and 0 queue based PvE content at all.

[Tadkins]

WoW reached its peak popularity with rating requirements on PvP gear and 0 queue based PvE content at all.

Because WoW was new at the time and the hype helped people ignore its problems.

You won't get a 13 million sub peak today if you went back to that model. As you can see, even trying to go back there is currently killing the game.

[ippollite]

I think the solo/casual options will come in 9.2. Blizzard are probably panicking right now, casuals are leaving left and right to their main competitor. They won't have time to put a bandaid in place for 9.1 so they'll continue to bleed.

Blizzard treated their casual playerbase like shit, WoW has lost more than half of their active players and FFXIV has more than doubled theirs.

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Multiplayer doesn't mean coopative instanced PVE. PUBG is a multiplayer game and it has none of that.

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Apparently yes. It's form manual groups or gtfo, so people are understandably getting the fuck out.

I kinda wonder if RaiderIO should just be baked into the core game (and perhaps extended). It's sort of the nuclear fission on the path to fusion reactors :P (i know nothing about nuclear fission as a means to develop fusion reactors, just to be clear).

In doing so it might pull away some of the power of LFG gatekeeping. If there's a system (in game) based on a player rating, then it should be easy for blizzard to matchmake groups based on it? I can easily see a world where your raiderio allows you to queue for certain dungeons on LFD over LFG. I can also see the end of keys themselves and a difficulty modifier set by the player upon arrival (or by the system) rather than grinding a key. Alternatively, i can see both systems happily coexisting. Why not? Or even, one existing in the 0-10 phase and the 11-15 being solely LFG. The point is, it should alleviate some of the concerns over 'vetting' and may allow players who feel locked out by LFG 'pressures' (yet nevertheless have few issues with LFD) to participate.

I mean, this of course assumes a universe where the current progression ladder/system is the only possible progression ladder/system possible to players. Theres obviously just as much of a call on multiple progression paths in self-contained universes (which blizzard recently hinted at they might be moving toward with the comment on pvp gear not being as powerful in pve content and vice versa).

Still, buy out raiderIO, utilise it to give players an under the hood rating for various content (through achievements, gear, rating, inventory etc), and they might have a way to still preserve their current ladder philosophy whilst not alienating or 'locking out' (yes, i know, its a self-imposed lockout for a myriad of personal reasons) a huge swathe of their (former?) playerbase.

[Tadkins]

WoW was actually one of the first heavily-instanced MMOs. Before that time MMOs (like UO and SWG) were primarily open-world games. And, IMO, far more interesting and more properly RPGs for it.

I played EQ for years before coming to WoW. I honestly think instancing was one of the greatest things ever. It meant that the big guilds couldn't just run roughshod over the server and dominate everything. Even playing P99 right now I miss instancing.

[Soon-TM]

WoW was actually one of the first heavily-instanced MMOs. Before that time MMOs (like UO and SWG) were primarily open-world games. And, IMO, far more interesting and more properly RPGs for it.

If I recall correctly, devs in Vanilla really wanted to make WoW a primarily open world game, ala EQ or Ultima. Although they went for instanced gameplay mostly for performance reasons, or that's what a Vanilla dev said once (I think it was Mark Kern? Not sure, though).

[Glorious Leader]

I kinda wonder if RaiderIO should just be baked into the core game (and perhaps extended).

What they really ought to do is just have combat text that pops up and lets people know they suck. Explicitly giving people a ranking really robs the illusion that they're character is powerful so why not just cut the shit and just tell people straight up how awful they are because embracing raider io is doing exactly that.

[Cyanu]

@OP

if they're so insecure about median players getting gear it's because they're no so skileld at all - and they know they're doing nothing special

many people in this game just pretend to be elite when they're just decent and getting carried by friends and guildmates

the real deal know that even if a DM came down from the sky and gave a random player bis items at 250 ilvl right now in this patch, he'd still be no threat to them

[munkeyinorbit]

WoW reached its peak popularity with rating requirements on PvP gear and 0 queue based PvE content at all.

WotLK, Cata, and BfA would.lile.to.say hi.

[AwkwardSquirtle]

What they really ought to do is just have combat text that pops up and lets people know they suck. Explicitly giving people a ranking really robs the illusion that they're character is powerful so why not just cut the shit and just tell people straight up how awful they are because embracing raider io is doing exactly that.

This already exists with item level, PvP ratings, and Rio itself. Hiding the score behind an addon isn't helping players, it's hindering them. It's all publicly available info with the armoury, so if a group maker wanted to find it out they could. Rio just simplifies the process.

[ippollite]

Raiderio is interesting for another reason, often overlooked: it has become a progression system alternative to ilvl/gear. Sure they both go hand in hand pretty much, but you see a lot of players this expansion focusing heavily on building up their io score in and of itself. Were it built into the core game youd have this... er... meta-achievement system at play where runs always contribute to your progression (in that they increase your score) even if you dont get your gear to specifically drop. In so doing, theyd unlock further options through matchmaking for progression (basically harder difficulty options to further increase the score) taking the sting out of the limited drops themselves.

[Gref]

So that's all you did the entire expansion? 5-6 hours per week, so it took you about two weeks to level cap, then you did one m+ a week and just motored all the way to 15 that way? I find that pretty hard to believe.

exactly. THere is not a single lie there. I have 4 +15 completed in time. There are uncompleted ones, rest is 14 and spires of ascension is still +3.
Of course at the start it was impossible for us to do 15. I remember doing 10 a week. then 13 then 14-15.
Next raid is tomorrow, we clear that, then on the weekend I will try to get one 15 done. And 1 torgast. Not 2. So that I can upgrade my legendary the day patch hits.

Oh and I had to do renown quests each week. 1000 anima and save souls.

[Argorwal]

WotLK, Cata, and BfA would.lile.to.say hi.

Wrath was the peak and had rating requirements on conquest gear.

It also didn’t have any queable PvE content until the last patch, where subs stabilized before shifting to going down.

[Ange]

Raiderio is interesting for another reason, often overlooked: it has become a progression system alternative to ilvl/gear.

Its clearly a prestige system that got a high value in the active playing community.

My only issue with R.IO is that it does not punish FOTM / META slaves. M+ balance is questionable and blizzard doesnt touch mid-expansion balance even if its as stupid as right now with random AOE uncapped classes also competing/dominating in single target DPS at the same time.
Some kind of reroll/meta "tax" would be required to make the metric more fitting for this MMO.

The game was usually balanced against FOTM waves with long content progressions and timegating till the end of the expansion, so players had to consider if they really wanted to reroll every season/few months and deal with the disadvantage. Blizzards mid-expansion and mid-content class tunings are gone since LEGION and FOTM / META tourists are not only tolerated but even rewarded by R.IO.