Shadowlands: Rapidly Climbing the Ladder in Popularity

[KrayZ33]

In my opinion, SL has to offer what all the other expansions had to offer.

PvP - Raiding - Dungeons.

It's never been different. M+ is still fun and challenging.
The raid is fun.
I don't play PvP but I guess it's been an improvement, at least when we are talking about rewards etc.

"Open world" has always been completely pointless from TBC onwards to this day.


Nothing new in WoW.
It's a working formular and that's about it.

I'd rather have them drown me in cosmetic rewards, optional spell animations (like glyphs that change the colour/style of your abilities), challenge mode dungeons (on top of M+) that reward players with a new set etc.
But all of that would be "I did it once and never touch it again" - I don't think it's possible for Blizzard to get me to play more than once or twice a week anymore after the initial rush. I wouldn't know how - at least not with realistic expectations in mind.

All the fun stuff I usually like is often disliked by the community.
Grinding Legendaries, grinding Artifact weapons, Warforge/Titanforged gear etc. etc.

People always look at this shit from a competitive side like the baboons they are. "I don't want this person to have the same gear as me" or "I don't want someone else to be ahead of me".
Since that mindset never changed, there has been no real content whatsoever once you are at a certain gear level for basically a decade.
No way to improve your stats.. or to increase your powerlevel, nothing to unlock to make your character stronger after spending some hours grinding something.

So the only other thing that would engage me are the one-time challenging stuff, but that's something Blizzard won't do because that stuff is not worth it for Blizzard to put money/work into, since it's a one-time thing that can't be re-used to occupy players for X months.

[Accendor]

Oh boy did this thread not age well

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Some might call me crazy but mythic isn't fun, 40% of the time is spent listening rl explaining tacts and swearing after another wipe, 15% trying to kill the boss and the remaining 45% looking at your character licking the floor and hoping for a battle ress that will never happen if you're a dps unless the boss is <10%, it really feels like smashing your head against a wall and after 80/90 hits the wall will eventually break and you will get your well deserved 50 AP and 20 gold, this is what happens when you let hazzikostas tune raids for Limit and weakauras/Dbm/bigwigs

to be honest the main problem for the last 3 espansions have been the last 2 bosses of the raids, which were almost always completely overtuned

[ro9ue]

Things in WoW just lack longevity.

One of the biggest draws of MMOs is the sense of deep investment in a character in a game where you know it's likely going to get updated 5, 10, 20 years into the future. Putting all this effort in temporary expansion gimmicks like the Covenants and Soulbinds is completely antithetical to the genre. Garrison, Class Hall, Heart Forge (?), Covenant Sanctum and their respective mission tables and progression systems. Do you know what these have in common? They're fucking dead content when the new expansion releases. All that gear you got? Vendored and forever useless.

Compare those WoW systems to systems found in other games like Player Housing (PH), the "Stickerbook" and Alternate Advancement (AA) points. I use AA because I first encountered the system in EverQuest but most games have a unique name - for example ESO calls it Champion Points.

PH usually has a great symbiotic relationship with all other systems in the game. Crafting furniture and items, showing off achievements with a boss head mounted on a wall, extra storage, etc. It's something I constantly add to and update as new content for it comes out. .... And I'm more inclined to do so because everything I put there has been and will be supported as a base, foundational system of the game and not a temporary hamster wheel the devs will later render irrelevant. For a lot of people PH isn't a huge deal but I'd argue you're getting forced into a PH lite system each expansion anyway and wouldn't you rather just have complete customization options. I would.

The 'borrowed power' systems I think are worst iteration of end game progression I've ever seen in the genre. That would be our Covenant Soulbinds, Heart of Azeroth, Artifacts etc. And they stand in the way of what could be a solid, infinitely supported AA system. Once I saw what the shtick was in Legion and watched them grey out our weapon trees, I didn't care about it in BFA with the Neck and didn't care about it in SL with the Covenant abilities / soulbinds. These aren't permanent systems tied to our characters and unworthy of deeply investing in.

Compare that to a typical AA system. Games add and update the existing system so your points earned are never lost. Generally they just add more options for you to spend points and increase spending caps. YOU DON'T LOSE ANYTHING EVER. They also smartly mitigate and manage bloat by adding powerful nodes or funnels that cost X points to act as a sponge for more active players. Games handle things differently here but I can say with the other MMOs I play, they're all better than losing everything and having to reclaim whatever you used to like, often in a different form and that's only if those abilities and traits haven't been deleted. ESO CP gets extra bonus points from me because CP progress is shared across Characters. Example if I'm at 500 CP on character A and switch to character B, I can hit 501 etc. And each character can spend all 500+ points individually (it's not a shared pool, just shared progression). Imagine leveling an alt and as soon as you hit cap you're caught up to every other level capped character on your account. BTW you also have a shared bank in that game and can prepare a full set of gear. Got a staff on your warrior but its bound? Drop in shared bank for your mage. Wild. When I look at WoW's system where each character has to do all these grinds individually AND the system goes away in a year or two... it's just insanity and I will never waste a minute doing that stuff.

Then I look at how games treat items in general. Destiny 2 and ESO come to mind as probably the gold standard. Everything you collect on any character is registered in an account wide "stickerbook" and you can craft these items again RIGHT OUT OF THE UI FOR ANY CHARACTER ON YOUR ACCOUNT. Like a tier set from MoP? Guess what you can use it forever if you want. Imagine in WoW if you could open your appearance tab craft out the Throne of Thunder T15 DK set at your Shadowlands ilevel just because you liked passively procing the Zandalari undead warrior. All new expansions do is offer MORE GEAR OPTIONS. Nothing is dead. Everything I collect feels relevant for soooooo much longer than it does in WoW.

Add that on top of the fact you do a dungeon run in WoW and generally get 1 or 0 items (can't believe this is even real), when these other games you get 5-10 items per 'dungeon'. I'll stop now but the more I play of other games the more I just look at WoW in disgust in how badly they treat players time. Like literal rats. Yes other games have grinds, shops, you name it but you never get the sense they are nickel and diming every minute of your life in the game to increase activity.

Anyway, I think this is why people like myself just pop in to see the new content in the first month of an expansion and dip out. It's not an MMO for me it's like revisiting the new DLC for a single player game I've liked for a long time. I have many other issues with WoW but if they don't fix these problems the game isn't going to be worth playing outside of the first expansion month, at least not for me.

[Dakara]

<snip>

Spot on.
WOW going "Seasonal" and re-inventing the wheel every expansion has destroyed any remaining RPG elements of this game.

No Ion, Covenants are not a meaningful RPG choice unless you tell me they're going to carry over into the next expansion, and the next, and the next... and I'll have still have my Artifact weapon, and HoA, and various Legendaries acquired over the last 16 years. But no, there will be some great end of expansion "event" that negates anything and my Lego's can sit in the bank collecting dust with the rest of the oranges.

[Edward Wu]

NoLootLands.

At the end of the day, raiding is not rewarding enough, and M+ has been an absolute slog all expansion long. Conduits and Soulbinds are entirely uninteresting. Covenants are a fail and a one-time, often not even meaningful choice.

Their entire plans for any kind of rpg progression this expansion have completely blown up in their face.

[cozzri]

Shadowlands is certainly *Not* climbing the ladder, when its the expansion that lost over 1/2 of the player base, thats just a harsh fact.

Im not saying that Shadowlands didnt have better ideas than BFA it did, but the execution evidently shows visual evidence that years of up and downhill promises are showing their fatigue.

Blizz would honestly be better making WoW 2.

I wonder how many players classic/BC poached from Shadowlands; maybe the numbers are significant enough to notice and adjust future development to attract those players to newer expansions? But even so, it's poaching players from it's own game so there really won't be any significant revenue gain.

I imagine a WoW 2 would be similar to Grinding Gears approach with PoE2; people are too heavily invested to completely abandon the game, it happened with EQ1/2; sure both games still exist, they both thrive in their own over time (I remember EQ2 competing with World of Warcraft at release)

[Soon-TM]

I wonder how many players classic/BC poached from Shadowlands; maybe the numbers are significant enough to notice and adjust future development to attract those players to newer expansions? But even so, it's poaching players from it's own game so there really won't be any significant revenue gain.

I imagine a WoW 2 would be similar to Grinding Gears approach with PoE2; people are too heavily invested to completely abandon the game, it happened with EQ1/2; sure both games still exist, they both thrive in their own over time (I remember EQ2 competing with World of Warcraft at release)

I don't think that there is a lot of overlap between Classic (soon to be BC) and retail players. Both games are different enough as to be completely separate entities, even if they bear both the same name. Chances are that retail players don't feel at ease on Classic, and vice-versa.

And if there ever is a WoW 2, it should be to WoW 1 what the original WoW was to EQ, i.e. a game with a much more casual friendly approach, a game that isn't designed to cater to the top 5% of hardcore players but to the rest. And if they want WoW 2 to be another hardcore paradise, which they are entitled to, at least make it clear from the very beginning, much like GGG did when PoE was still in beta.

[ro9ue]

I wonder how many players classic/BC poached from Shadowlands; maybe the numbers are significant enough to notice and adjust future development to attract those players to newer expansions? But even so, it's poaching players from it's own game so there really won't be any significant revenue gain.

I imagine a WoW 2 would be similar to Grinding Gears approach with PoE2; people are too heavily invested to completely abandon the game, it happened with EQ1/2; sure both games still exist, they both thrive in their own over time (I remember EQ2 competing with World of Warcraft at release)

Yeah, I personally don't think true sequels work well for MMOs. It was a terrible decision for EverQuest. It was terrible decision for Destiny.

[ippollite]

I mentioned this months ago. The game and forum have been dead since December.

But ofc, retards always say "People who enjoys SL is in the game, only whiners and haters are on the forum."

LOL

One of the interesting signs of oncoming issues is the collapse of casual 'moaning' threads on the main forum. In early-mid january the threads aggrieved by the systems of current wow were at an absolute crescendo. Two months later, obviously theres still all kinds of complaining, but they seem to have dropped off almost completely. I just had another lookie, all threads over 200 or so replies are basically just your mechagnome appreciation style threads, you marry/divorce/eat the player above you..., cultural (any other metalheads/can we have more representation?), wow community (what about that bellular dude?). The complaining threads are pretty much almost exclusively about reward stinginess and the like (ie. people still doing the grind and apparently still under the misconception that its a design oversight).

Its like the 'casual problem' has taken care of itself exactly like casual players predicted it would back in late december - january. Still, one more week until the ptr drops and perhaps the hype will pull them back in.

[Lahis]

This. Blizzard may have SL more or less "fixed" by 9.3 (assuming that there will actually be 9.3, that is), but it will be too little, too late.

So I might return for 10.0, if they manage to come with something that isn't yet another version of borrowed power (inb4 tier sets rofl), and preferably with an at least mildly interesting story.

I doubt there will be 9.3. Unless by some miracle Bobby and his top suits let Blizzard delay the next expansion, 10.0 needs to be out in 2022. With how delayed 9.1 is, there is barely time left for 9.2, much less for 9.3.

[ParanoiD84]

It's the expansion I have played the least by far and I have played since BC.

Strong start but when the honeymoon phace was over you really see how shallow it is.

Plus the writing is weak as fuck and only gets worse and that's pretty important for me to keep me engaged.

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Well I still have a glimmer of hope they will improve because as of now the only fun thing imo is doing old content for mounts and whatnot.

[Xalvia]

They finally removed titanforging and AP but managed to bring back WoD style of content drought. Also the aoe cap and coventant rules can go die a painful death.

[Lolites]

Shadowlands is certainly *Not* climbing the ladder, when its the expansion that lost over 1/2 of the player base, thats just a harsh fact.

ive seen that article, and it literaly said after half of player leaving we are BACK TO PRE EXPANSION NUMBERS
this happens every expansion (and in smaller amplitude patch) are people realy not able to see the pattern after over a decade?! really?!

[Dracullus]

Spot on.
WOW going "Seasonal" and re-inventing the wheel every expansion has destroyed any remaining RPG elements of this game.

No Ion, Covenants are not a meaningful RPG choice unless you tell me they're going to carry over into the next expansion, and the next, and the next... and I'll have still have my Artifact weapon, and HoA, and various Legendaries acquired over the last 16 years. But no, there will be some great end of expansion "event" that negates anything and my Lego's can sit in the bank collecting dust with the rest of the oranges.

If only we had access to alternative universe...

I would love to hear your gasps over:
- 3 more talent rows and 3-4 more spells in rotation
- having to farm Artifact Power for weapon
- having to pick right relics
- having to pick good traits for Netherlight Crucible
- having to farm artifact necklace
- pick right traits on armor, of course
- grind and pick right essence
- pick optimal corruption
- legendary questlines from WoD/MoP
- SL campaign/other stuff

ALTS WOULD BE SO MUCH FUN.

Dude, currently all you have to do is (max) hour of Torghast weekly for 5 weeks, campaign and rest are just gear drops. STILL we have people that call it 'alt unfriendly'.

[Lolites]

What I don't get is that you made your account here (supposedly) 5 years after you quit the game and have made 4 posts a day everyday since. You must REALLY enjoy the conversations here...

some people just cant help themselves and have to keep shitting on something trying to make everyone else as miserable as they are...

[Dawon]

This is the expansion that made me unsub and stop raiding (for the first time since Vanilla).... it's the worst state we had so far in the history of wow and no sparkling graphics can change that. WQs are still there in the same format as several expansions ago, it's getting old now. Borrowed powers is getting even more old, call it Artifact weapon, Essence necklace or Conduits skill tree, they are all exactly the same but different UI. Enough is enough. Don't get me started on the timewaste called Mission/Follower/whatever tables which is also a lazy copy/paste from Legion.

The only new thing in this exp was Torghast and while that was awesome fun the first 25 times, it's also getting very stale as the "dynamic map layout" isn't so dynamic and everything plays out exactly the same in every run due to how anima powers work.

Legion was cool as they invented WQs, mission tables and borrowed powers from scratch but since that day, they only rehash old crap in new UI and it's getting freaking BORING now.

So long WoW, next exp is do or die for me, another rehashed expansion in new UI and it's over for good.

[Beuargh]

don't know if it rapidly climbed the ladder in popularity, but DAYUM how fast the fall is .... lol

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.

Legion was cool as they invented WQs

WQ was the new name for daily quests and daily quests exist in wow since BC.

[Loveliest]

The op is from december 2020, guys. Coming to say "no it's not" after 3 months is kinda weird.

[Beuargh]

The op is from december 2020, guys. Coming to say "no it's not" after 3 months is kinda weird.

just like saying SL was the best Xpac ever after one month... this whole thread was kind of weird from the start.

[Dracullus]

just like saying SL was the best Xpac ever after one month... this whole thread was kind of weird from the start.

Title is weird, but in first post OP just said he likes SL much more than previous 4 expacs. Judging popularity is always pointless when only hard data we have are sales from pre-order. Although I don't think it's controversial when I say that SL honeymoon period was longer than BfAs.