Biden's student loan forgiveness

[cubby]

Yes Biden is also trying to do the right thing according to his ideology. That's a part of it. Not everything is about cynicism and popularity even though politicians do always have to think about the next election.

The more I think about it, the more I think Biden might actually EO this, if it's found to be legal.

1. He does the right thing.
2. He does a good thing.
3. He spends zero political capital.
4. The GOP has little to attack on in the next election.

Maybe someone got to Biden and pointed this out.

[Rennadrel]

While I agree tuition costs are ridiculously high, most good+ college and university four-year degree programs aren't jokes. University is a terrific experience, one that should be shared by anyone who wants it.

The problem I'm seeing with university grads, at least in my industry is that they have an insignificant amount of practical experience, even with their co-op programs, to be successful in their field. I work in manufacturing and the university graduates we take on in engineering roles are so lacking in their understanding of how to actually do their jobs properly because they aren't given the hands on training that college students get. Now, I'm a tradesman with accredited training for university engineering programs if I wanted to do that, and I can tell that these kids could use some of the hands on training that I've had to understand what it takes to actually manufacture things. I know a lot of people poopoo the value of colleges and trade schools, but I do think that the more application based learning has a lot more value in life than the theoretical heavy learning that Canadian universities tend to offer.

And do people really need 4 years? I'd be more inclined that a 4 year program should be offering at least a full years worth of either on the job learning as a co-op or doing practical training.

[Witchblade77]

I think Biden wants Congress to pass it simply due to the fact that giving people loan forgiveness of 50k counts as 50k+ income when tax times comes. That could push people into brackets that they have not had money taken out for and/or given them debt owed the IRS.

from what I've been reading, normally, yes, but in this case - they are specifically making it exempt from taxes. at least they did with the last two rounds of forgiveness they already did.

[cubby]

The problem I'm seeing with university grads, at least in my industry is that they have an insignificant amount of practical experience, even with their co-op programs, to be successful in their field. I work in manufacturing and the university graduates we take on in engineering roles are so lacking in their understanding of how to actually do their jobs properly because they aren't given the hands on training that college students get. Now, I'm a tradesman with accredited training for university engineering programs if I wanted to do that, and I can tell that these kids could use some of the hands on training that I've had to understand what it takes to actually manufacture things. I know a lot of people poopoo the value of colleges and trade schools, but I do think that the more application based learning has a lot more value in life than the theoretical heavy learning that Canadian universities tend to offer.

And do people really need 4 years? I'd be more inclined that a 4 year program should be offering at least a full years worth of either on the job learning as a co-op or doing practical training.

I couldn't agree more regarding newly minted grads having a lack of hands on experience in their fields. In my industry I fight a lot the back and forth hiring practices between bringing on new grads into our company, and at the same time requiring them to have 1+ years of experience.

I am a HUGE fan of trade schools. High school grads should be pushed in the direction of trade schools because for many college isn't the right answer. Four years is a long time, and people don't finish for a variety of reason, most of which don't have to do with ability. And Journeyman wages are insane. Electricians at $100k equivalent hourly. Plumbers the same.

I really like your idea of having Universities offer a year of hands on work/training. It would really make the transition from school to the work force smoother.

[GreenJesus]

It's almost like generations of kids were lied to and told that if they got a college education they'd get good paying jobs, so they went into debt expecting to come out of school to some decent jobs they could start paying down debt with...only to realize that not only was that all a lie, but that we've faced two massive back-to-back financial recessions/slowdowns that have absolutely gutted a lot of these folks ability to even enter the workforce.

This is the trolly problem, don't run over people with the trolly.

"Did i say college would get you a good job? I actually meant you need a masters to get a good job. Sorry."

[cubby]

from what I've been reading, normally, yes, but in this case - they are specifically making it exempt from taxes. at least they did with the last two rounds of forgiveness they already did.

Hold on - the last two rounds of Biden Student Loan forgiveness (the for-profit colleges, and people with severe disabilities) included language in the EO that made that forgiveness tax exempt? That's really interesting - I didn't think he could do that from an EO alone.

[Rennadrel]

I couldn't agree more regarding newly minted grads having a lack of hands on experience in their fields. In my industry I fight a lot the back and forth hiring practices between bringing on new grads into our company, and at the same time requiring them to have 1+ years of experience.

I am a HUGE fan of trade schools. High school grads should be pushed in the direction of trade schools because for many college isn't the right answer. Four years is a long time, and people don't finish for a variety of reason, most of which don't have to do with ability. And Journeyman wages are insane. Electricians at $100k equivalent hourly. Plumbers the same.

I really like your idea of having Universities offer a year of hands on work/training. It would really make the transition from school to the work force smoother.

I know America has a different system from us for post-secondary education, but I think there's ways we should be structuring a lot of the technical fields like STEM to give students more hands on as part of their programs. In Canada a lot of programs allow for academic upgrading. For me, at the end of my apprenticeship, if I'm inclined to, I could go to university and do mechanical engineering and probably start in year two or three of the program, going in with more of the hands on experience having spent 3 years as an apprentice. For someone in my position, coming out of an engineering program with that hands on training, really is advantageous in terms of understanding what it takes to engineer things and what we are capable of making these days.

But here, college is trade school and a myriad of other programs. You can do college level engineering degree, business and a bunch of other programs that aren't exclusively catered towards a certain learning demographic. Some colleges offer programs that allow you to step into university after a couple of years through the accredited courses they offer. Our education system is kind of strange too, there's a disproportionate number of women to men in university, while the colleges are the opposite. I think a lot of that has to do with how men and women learn, and men often being more suited to hands on learning. I am an advocate of more young people pursuing college because not only is it more cost effective here, you get better preparation for the working world. People shouldn't be pressured to go to university here if they don't have the grades to succeed and do really well.

[Witchblade77]

Hold on - the last two rounds of Biden Student Loan forgiveness (the for-profit colleges, and people with severe disabilities) included language in the EO that made that forgiveness tax exempt? That's really interesting - I didn't think he could do that from an EO alone.

I was trying to find a most recent stuff I have read, but for some reason I'm having trouble with it today, so there is an earlier writeup, when they were still voting on it. as far as i know, that provision was voted in.

https://abcnews.go.com/Lifestyle/wir...eness-76530331

[cubby]

I was trying to find a most recent stuff I have read, but for some reason I'm having trouble with it today, so there is an earlier writeup, when they were still voting on it. as far as i know, that provision was voted in.

https://abcnews.go.com/Lifestyle/wir...eness-76530331

Holy shit - I had assumed that provision was for only the debt forgiven in the COVID bill, but it pretty clearly states any student loan debt forgiveness in the next five years. Wow.

Thanks for finding that link as well.

[Logwyn]

Can either one of you explain how this increases tax returns and how that benefits Biden? It’s like ya’ll are looking for some hidden reason for Biden to do this, but those reasons don’t make any sense.

https://www.cnbc.com/select/biden-st...ess-and-taxes/

Means that Biden wants congress to do it so that in the bill they can make it not increase taxable income.

- - - Updated - - -

I couldn't agree more regarding newly minted grads having a lack of hands on experience in their fields. In my industry I fight a lot the back and forth hiring practices between bringing on new grads into our company, and at the same time requiring them to have 1+ years of experience.

I am a HUGE fan of trade schools. High school grads should be pushed in the direction of trade schools because for many college isn't the right answer. Four years is a long time, and people don't finish for a variety of reason, most of which don't have to do with ability. And Journeyman wages are insane. Electricians at $100k equivalent hourly. Plumbers the same.

I really like your idea of having Universities offer a year of hands on work/training. It would really make the transition from school to the work force smoother.

There is really no reason to wait for trade school until after college. There is a path here where I live that high schoolers can go to trade school while in high school. Right after graduation they have graduated both trade school AND high school. Skipping a few year(s) and can/could enter the job market then.

Only trouble is they get their post-secondary schooling totally paid for why do college/university-bound students and careers have to take out loans and such to finish.

[Witchblade77]

https://www.cnbc.com/select/biden-st...ess-and-taxes/

Means that Biden wants congress to do it so that in the bill they can make it not increase taxable income.

- - - Updated - - -



There is really no reason to wait for trade school until after college. There is a path here where I live that high schoolers can go to trade school while in high school. Right after graduation they have graduated both trade school AND high school. Skipping a few year(s) and can/could enter the job market then.

Only trouble is they get their post-secondary schooling totally paid for why do college/university-bound students and careers have to take out loans and such to finish.

read link above for more up to date information. they added tax exemption for loans forgiveness within the next 5 years into covid relief bill. so no added taxes IF the loan forgiveness goes through. (which TBH, I hope it does and for both people who were in forbearance or deferment AND people who managed to make at least minimum payments on time)

[Felya]

Means that Biden wants congress to do it so that in the bill they can make it not increase taxable income.

What? You said this:

I think Biden wants Congress to pass it simply due to the fact that giving people loan forgiveness of 50k counts as 50k+ income when tax times comes. That could push people into brackets that they have not had money taken out for and/or given them debt owed the IRS.

Are you saying the opposite now?

[cubby]

There is really no reason to wait for trade school until after college. There is a path here where I live that high schoolers can go to trade school while in high school. Right after graduation they have graduated both trade school AND high school. Skipping a few year(s) and can/could enter the job market then.

Only trouble is they get their post-secondary schooling totally paid for why do college/university-bound students and careers have to take out loans and such to finish.

I agree - and to be clear, I wasn't suggesting people wait for trade school until after college - they should do trade school in lieu of college.

[Kathandira]

You wouldn't need loan forgiveness if there was actually state and federal regulations on tuition costs. It's absolutely insane how much Americans are paying for joke degree programs. If you want to make money in this world, it's in computer sciences, engineering and trades everything else that isn't STEM might as well be a grift.

Art and Design are far more important than people realize. You should add that to the list.

[Witchblade77]

Art and Design are far more important than people realize. You should add that to the list.

a disturbing amount of people think that

1. art is not valuable, despite consuming variety of products in their daily life that would not exist without arts

and

2. you are apparently a good artist/writer/designer/whathaveyou without needing extensive training. you just... are because talent? and that art is not work anyways. I mean... we are on a video game based forum, games that require highly trained artists, designers, etc.. and yet...


I do think that a lot of schools in general severely overcharge for their classes. and that no degree, art or stem or anything in between should cost tens of thousands of dollars - the classes are NOT that significantly better in a super fancy private school vs state or city one. but... art is vital and so is training in art. something I wish more people who ignore how much that training and creativity boosts developments in STEM fields would realize.

[PC2]

Art and Design are far more important than people realize. You should add that to the list.

Art is very important and it helps society in making progress but it's one of the least reliable ways of paying back student loans so if people don't have any money then they should pursue it in their free time or at a community college. It's just annoying when so many people get degrees in the humanities and arts and then they complain that scientists and innovaters are not addressing problems like climate change fast enough. People should focus on the biggest problems and personally I'd say a lack of art is not a problem because there is already so much good art out there that there's not enough time in the day to experience it all.

[Kathandira]

Art is very important and it helps society in making progress but it's one of the least reliable ways of paying back student loans so if people don't have any money then they should pursue it in their free time or at a community college. It's just annoying when so many people get degrees in the humanities and arts and then they complain that scientists and innovaters are not addressing problems like climate change fast enough. People should focus on the biggest problems and personally I'd say a lack of art is not a problem because there is already so much good art out there that there's not enough time in the day to experience it all.

My Mrs. graduated from University with a BFA in visual arts. She has been a ceramic artist and illustrator since highschool, and spent 6 years in school learning.

Problem is, they never taught them how to market themselves, or how to become an independent business owner. Not all artists fit into a corporate position as a graphic designer. Her art would be more fit for commissions and bodies of work in a gallery. However they did not teach their students how to navigate that world.

Imo, Art courses should be tied with some sort of business management courses are required learning.

[Witchblade77]

Art is very important and it helps society in making progress but it's one of the least reliable ways of paying back student loans so if people don't have any money then they should pursue it in their free time or at a community college. It's just annoying when so many people get degrees in the humanities and arts and then they complain that scientists and innovaters are not addressing problems like climate change fast enough. People should focus on the biggest problems and personally I'd say a lack of art is not a problem because there is already so much good art out there that there's not enough time in the day to experience it all.

https://www.siliconrepublic.com/inno...novation-steam
for a few examples, and that was just on a first page of google results.

art is VITAL.

people don't realize just how much art contributed to innovation, made advances in technology possible.

the reason its the least reliable way of paying back loans is
1. As Kath pointed out, most artists are not taught how to market themselves
2. as i said, too many people take arts and its contributions for granted.

[cubby]

https://www.siliconrepublic.com/inno...novation-steam
for a few examples, and that was just on a first page of google results.

art is VITAL.

people don't realize just how much art contributed to innovation, made advances in technology possible.

the reason its the least reliable way of paying back loans is
1. As Kath pointed out, most artists are not taught how to market themselves
2. as i said, too many people take arts and its contributions for granted.

This cannot be said enough. Art is vital to a thriving society. People going to school to become artists, in whatever form, is important. It's one of the many reasons the United States needs to dramatically curtail tuition costs.

[GreenJesus]

unless they can prove “undue hardship”

of course the people they are fighting against have way more money to hire better lawyers.


https://www.forbes.com/sites/adammin...h=67d070134524


The current bankruptcy code treats student loan debt differently from most other forms of consumer debt, such as credit cards and medical bills. Borrowers must generally prove that they have an “undue hardship” in order to discharge their student loan debt in bankruptcy. These restrictions initially only applied to federal student loans, but were subsequently expanded to cover private student loans following the passage of a 2005 bankruptcy reform bill.

The “undue hardship” standard applied to student loan debt is not adequately defined in statute, so bankruptcy judges have established various tests (which vary by jurisdiction) to determine discharge eligibility. In order to show that they meet this standard, borrowers must initiate an “adversary proceeding,” which is essentially a lawsuit within the bankruptcy case that is brought against the borrower’s student loan lenders. Through the adversary proceeding, the borrower must present evidence showing that they meet the undue hardship standard, while the student lenders present opposing evidence. The adversary proceeding can be a long and invasive process for borrowers, and can get quite expensive for those who retain a private attorney. Student loan lenders may also have significantly more resources than borrowers, which can give them an edge in the litigation. As a result, many student loan borrowers are unsuccessful in proving undue hardship, and many others don’t even try.

The issue is that student loans don't have an asset to foreclose on for the lessee to recapture their investment. What value does the product the of the student loan have? Nothing since a diploma csnt be resold. If you stop paying for your car, the bank can take the car. Stop paying for the house? They can take the house. In bankruptcy, what would the bank be able to take? A piece of worthless paper?

You would just be making the interest rate exorbitantly expensive since there would be an incredible risk in giving out student loans without some form of protection against just declaring bankruptcy at graduation since they have nothing to really lose.