How and when is the 'meta' decided?

[kranur]

Generally, people are very limited in thinking on their own, that's why you have these "metas" and streamers/youtubers having their asses kissed and licked.

Monkey sees streams, videos with some classes and check warcraftlogs and see that those classes are at the top, monkey invites only those classes, even though the difference might be even less than 5%.

Monkey can't think on it's own to realize that the extra 1, 2% has little effect for it's +10 or +15 key.

Like if you check WCL right now, for +15 at 80% percentile, Destruction has a score of 92, while Marksman has a score of 94. The difference is minimal .. and warlocks bring great utility with HS, Brez, Interrupt and portal, so there's little reason not to bring one.

[Garymorilix]

Still look like anecdote rather statistics.

And it can happen with any nationalities.

Once you hit decent rio, you won't have that kind of players (usually).

Yes, of course, there are countless studies done on the average skill level of nationalities in WoW.
Stop this bullshit "bUt wHeR dA StAtiStICs".

If you actually play the game you start to notice patterns.
I can confirm that french players in general are dogshit. Now that doesn't mean that every one of them is, but you're generally better off not inviting them.
Most of them refuse to speak English or are dogshit at it anyway so you can't even talk to them.

Russian players are also like this but at least a fifth of russian players are actually godlike.
Just yesterday I took a russian hunter who carried my group with his massive dps and he could actually use his CC too (not common for hunters).

Play the game and you will start to have these biases as well.

[Feral Druid ist Op]

.

Monkey sees streams, videos with some classes and check warcraftlogs and see that those classes are at the top, monkey invites only those classes, even though the difference might be even less than 5%.

So you say the dmg diff between a BM Hunter/Senister Rogue/ARM Warrior/Havoc DH and a Fire Mage/MM Hunter/Boomkin is 5% lol? i guess the monkey is the guy who cant read dps numbers

[kranur]

So you say the dmg diff between a BM Hunter/Senister Rogue/ARM Warrior/Havoc DH and a Fire Mage/MM Hunter/Boomkin is 5% lol? i guess the monkey is the guy who cant read dps numbers

You're comparing apples and oranges. Why do you even compare BM Hunter and MM Hunter? It's still a hunter. The thing was about classes being ignored completely. Like being a warlock, regardless of spec.

[Specialka]

Yes, of course, there are countless studies done on the average skill level of nationalities in WoW.
Stop this bullshit "bUt wHeR dA StAtiStICs".

If you actually play the game you start to notice patterns.
I can confirm that french players in general are dogshit. Now that doesn't mean that every one of them is, but you're generally better off not inviting them.
Most of them refuse to speak English or are dogshit at it anyway so you can't even talk to them.

Russian players are also like this but at least a fifth of russian players are actually godlike.
Just yesterday I took a russian hunter who carried my group with his massive dps and he could actually use his CC too (not common for hunters).

Play the game and you will start to have these biases as well.

That is called confirmation biais.

You are welcome.

- - - Updated - - -

dont worrie with that io you would not even make it into my grps not even for no leaver 15s on my 200 ilvl alts ^^

and for your arcane mage comment on your dog IO tabks dont know shit and puling 1-2 packs with a "dantos" route and a fire mage cant do dmg. I want to see a arcane mage to top my overall firemage dps in a 23+ key with my premade tank who knows pulls

Looks like you never played with a decent Arcane mage. I give you that it is rare as since it is harder to play than fire mage, most ppl flocked to the fotm.

[Feral Druid ist Op]

You're comparing apples and oranges. Why do you even compare BM Hunter and MM Hunter? It's still a hunter. The thing was about classes being ignored completely. Like being a warlock, regardless of spec.

my argument still stands War DH dps vs meta we talking about caped vs uncaped aoe 35k burst vs 14k burst on a 3-4 pack pull

[ZazuuPriest]

Blizzard decides the meta when they develop the expansion/patches. Why else would some classes have an AoE cap and other classes not. They believe forcing meta slaves to switch classes by switching the meta keeps people subbed longer. This shit doesn't happen by accident.

[Barzotti]

dude everyone who plays on EU knows to avoid russian,french and those portuguese players all the notorious EU Servers are french and portuguese (Ragnaros, sanguini, hyjal with a mix of russian servers icant read the names of) and as some one who did 4k+ keys in a range of 500 io to 3.2k io i can confirm to dodge frenchs

Archimonde is also notorious, it was the main pvp french server (server filled with people with a terrible attitude).

Generally, people are very limited in thinking on their own, that's why you have these "metas" and streamers/youtubers having their asses kissed and licked.

Monkey sees streams, videos with some classes and check warcraftlogs and see that those classes are at the top, monkey invites only those classes, even though the difference might be even less than 5%.

Monkey can't think on it's own to realize that the extra 1, 2% has little effect for it's +10 or +15 key.

Like if you check WCL right now, for +15 at 80% percentile, Destruction has a score of 92, while Marksman has a score of 94. The difference is minimal .. and warlocks bring great utility with HS, Brez, Interrupt and portal, so there's little reason not to bring one.

It's not just a monkey see monkey do attitude. Some specs bring more to the table than others, that's all. Even if we were ignoring the pure dps, why would you pick a warlock over a boomkin? Why wouldn't you pick the fire mage and his unrivaled ability to vaporize packs on a 1 minute cd? A warlock friend has a hard time getting invites for his two +15s missing for KSM, because he's less valuable for a pug leader than fire mage, boomkin or elemental shaman. It's not just about numbers.

[exochaft]

I'd still surmise the meta is based upon what the very top people in M+ decide they want to run based upon their own skills and preferences at a certain gear/difficulty level... and people heavily misinterpret this as the only and/or 'best' way to tackle M+. Happens in mythic raiding, as well. It's a general case of "monkey see, monkey do," because most people playing the game don't bother themselves to do actual theorycrafting/experimentation either due to lack of time, lack of effort, or lack of ability.

That being said, having a list of things you want as you make a key is fine, but the vast majority of players get stuck in the 'meta' group-think when making their lists. Specifically for this season, the existence of Covenants and their dungeon benefits can play a huge role in who you pick... sometimes even more than the perceived 'meta'.

When it comes down to picking specific classes and/or specs, this is probably where the most uninformed meta-based decisions take place. To cut to the chase, when I've pugged +18 keys and below (where probably most people in the game do their keys) in S1 of Shadowlands, the most common thing that will kill a dungeon has zero to do with what classes and/or specs you bring. Doing mechanics properly and knowing your own class/spec capabilities matters WAY more than "Did I make a meta group?". Unfortunately, the biggest problem I see in pugs is that the failings of the group are rarely recognized or admitted by the individual(s) at fault, and there tends to be a huge lack of investment in improving one's character beyond just ilvl. Happens quite often with FOTM players who pick whatever's popular, yet would probably be better off playing something they're comfortable with.

This leads into where the 'meta' is probably abused the most in an incorrect fashion: pugging M+. If you have a set group, you probably care very little about the perceived meta as you make it work. However, pugs tend to aim for the least possible resistance to almost toxic levels in some extreme cases. A degree of skepticism is perfectly warranted; one just doesn't know the skills and abilities of a random person picked from the ether. This is how r.io scores and ilvl became such a big thing in the pug world (even if those are more often than not used incorrectly). However, picking purely the perceived 'meta' is almost always employed without a fundamental understand of the basis of said 'meta', as mentioned earlier.

In the end, the 'meta' is just a concept that people enslave themselves to generally due to their own ignorance, whether that being willingly or unwillingly.

There's a couple great videos by Kevin Jordan, former WoW dev, that goes into great detail about the 'meta' and game balance in general, and it goes into how I also perceive said situations.

[Aphrel]

Is it figured out over time by actual playing/testing?

This is the one. Look what the highest completed m+ keys the first few weeks are to see what comps seem to most often make those timed runs.
Also keep in mind gimmicky mechanics (etc necrotic wake is a horrible key to measure anything by, same as tol dagor wasnt a good measuring stick in bfa).

Then as new stuff is discovered meta changes ofc.

Its a little bit like science where you keep trying things to get an idea of what works and doesnt. Here you have a community of thousands of players that keeps trying comps out and the most successful ones are the ones seen at the top.

Now all of this is completely irrelevant at m+2-15 but since theres a overabundance of dps to choose from when pugging its simply the most attractive options that gets picked over the less attractive ones. This can sometimes be to the detriment of the group as often diffrent specs shine depending on how long packs live. Etc mages are considerably weaker on lower m+ teirs than 15+ because mobs die too fast.

[Lurker1]

Not sure what meta is or means but i never follow anything in games o play them to chill nothing else.inless your talking about some kind of metal?

[KaPe]

Not sure what meta is or means but i never follow anything in games o play them to chill nothing else.inless your talking about some kind of metal?

If you ever look up recommended classes, builds, items or the like, you're (at least partially) following the meta. It's silly how this word has been demonized, to the point where many people will claim they *never* follow the meta, because it's *so* unfun.

Not to mention that "meta" isn't something detached from reality of the game. There's usually a reason why Class X is meta, while Class Y isn't - and said reason is not few "elitist" being delusional. Granted, the general public rarely understands the full reasoning and sometimes vastly overestimated how important it is, but the concept itself isn't bad.

If anything, saying "I don't follow the meta, I play for fun" can hint at something. You never pick optimal talents, legendaries or use proper skill rotation? Do you always play suboptimally, while claiming it's "fun"? Probably not.

[Lurker1]

If you ever look up recommended classes, builds, items or the like, you're (at least partially) following the meta. It's silly how this word has been demonized, to the point where many people will claim they *never* follow the meta, because it's *so* unfun.

Not to mention that "meta" isn't something detached from reality of the game. There's usually a reason why Class X is meta, while Class Y isn't - and said reason is not few "elitist" being delusional. Granted, the general public rarely understands the full reasoning and sometimes vastly overestimated how important it is, but the concept itself isn't bad.

If anything, saying "I don't follow the meta, I play for fun" can hint at something. You never pick optimal talents, legendaries or use proper skill rotation? Do you always play suboptimally, while claiming it's "fun"? Probably not.

I didn't follow meta and i passed all of my mage tower quests all 10 that i wanted so yeah doesn't seem to effect me at all.

[KaPe]

I didn't follow meta and i passed all of my mage tower quests all 10 that i wanted so yeah doesn't seem to effect me at all.

Mage tower lasted for several tiers. Doing it during Nighthold was completely different from going there with additional 70 ilvls.

[baskev]

Season 4 of BFA, i decided to get KSM.
I main a warlock, never play alts outside of needing them for acheivements.
After several weeks of non stop declines and insta boots, I shelved my warlock and made a Demon Hunter, since that was what people wanted.

I got into nearly every group, got decent people applying for my keys, got KSM.


I tried again Season 1 SL, same result. No one wanted my lock, and relying on my own keys was just not pleasant.
So I looked again, saw Mage and then Hunter, were the 2 big picks.
Rolled a Hunter, got KSM.


Ive been in groups run by warlocks, but never groups inviting warlocks. Funnily enough, every group I ran with a warlock lead, they were near top dps and performed fine as far as i could see.
But, reality doesnt matter for everyone pre 15s. The groups that relied on metas mostly failed. The groups that checked IO or were 'premade' were what got the most success.


I would love for Warlock to be a 'pick' for 'push' groups, but sadly its not a reality. I do however, enjoy 'mastering' a different class each season/xpac. it allows me to learn things I wouldnt, gives me another alt for the army for mount farming, and I join different guilds each time and find new friends.


Anyway, my question is
How are these metas decided and when?
Is it something we know early into the PTR?
Do people just run sims?
Is it figured out over time by actual playing/testing?
Is there any point speculating yet?

Simple, this goes for ANY game. In beta's/test servers etc people play a lot. They notice...hey if we do this and this. Or pick this and this class/hero/race/car etc we are faster on the same level/boss then. They run sims of course to check what classes(etc) to play first. But ingame they do a lot of testing.
They also look at basic stuff.

Take overwatch per example: if 2 healers are very close to each other and the meta now is to take healer x. But blizzard annouces heavy nerfs to hero x, but big buffs to hero y. You can guess without any effort that hero y will be the new meta.


But in simple mode answer:
- they are tested in beta's/ptrs. tried even there. But they are played and tested in live . then they set in.
- no we do not know that for sure in early ptr. Because patches etc change. they might have a guess. but things can change.
- sims help with numbers. But numbers are not ingame things in real fights.
- yes its a acctual tested ingame.
- Once a lot of people are playing it and seeing that it works more easy, better then this...its a meta.

and to your situation: people want fast groups with high end dps. warlock is on most list on place 10 -18-23 for its specs. But in recent weeks it has gone up to 2-1-16. so in the start they avoided it. Because it was a very nich class to get in both dps rankings/usefullnes in fights. Those things change. So if you want fast and easy groups in higher end m+ groups. You pick the best class.

[Depakote]

It's decided in the backroom by some try hards that think their way of playing is the best and that everyone should play like them and if they don't they don't get to have any gear.

[czarek]

Imo picking meta classes is a bit overrated. I know mage can do insane AOE dps on pack pulls but its no everythin. Im shodow pri and can easly outdps fire mage on single target and be very stable on aoe. Mage without cooldowns can literally do shit. Ive made last week sao+15 and i was on top dps with upto 10k bosses fights and up to 20k aoe packs overall intance 6.7k >< Mages are a bit overrated imo. Once i was with arms warrior in a run he made top dps lol crazy shit. Pickin meta class may it be vaule when ur over +15M player. Pickin mages is just easyer maybe becasue mage rotation isnt that flexible and hard. Just nuke what u got while combustion is on bang 30k aoe dps ><

[cface]

When I tank around 15's, the first pick is usually a boomkin. I'm guardian, and I just know how stupidly safe boomkins are. They bring everything, but sadly, most have no fucking idea when to use treants, so I have a macro that shouts it. Most come in with no treants talents, asking why I would need 10sec of tanking..

But decent boomkins > everything else, don't care about dps, they are usually not top, but it's more then enough.

[Lurker1]

Mage tower lasted for several tiers. Doing it during Nighthold was completely different from going there with additional 70 ilvls.

I did it during nighthold.

[KaPe]

I did it during nighthold.

You did 10 mage tower trials back when they weren't easy to outgear and not a single time you choose optimal legendary, talents or used a proper rotation to maximize your dps?

Yeah, that's either a "that happened" moment or you being stubborn about the definition of "meta".