Shadowlands: Rapidly Climbing the Ladder in Popularity

[EyelessCrow]

Well, that could be a good thing actually. Tencent has been doing a fine job with e.g. Path of Exile, so...

Ahh yes, tell me more about how releasing the same item 4 times with a slightly different tint is "doing a fine job". Throw as many systems at the wall so we can sell those "totally unnecessary" stash tabs.

[Nyel]

Ahh yes, tell me more about how releasing the same item 4 times with a slightly different tint is "doing a fine job". Throw as many systems at the wall so we can sell those "totally unnecessary" stash tabs.

Isn't Blizzard almost doing the same since the removal of tier sets back in BfA?

[Soon-TM]

Ahh yes, tell me more about how releasing the same item 4 times with a slightly different tint is "doing a fine job". Throw as many systems at the wall so we can sell those "totally unnecessary" stash tabs.

The thing is, PoE is a F2P game, much unlike WoW. But don't let such minor details discourage you

[Sensa1]

The main problem of SL, at least for me and my friends is, that the whole content after 60 is like one BIG Suramar quest line where you find new stuff you have to go through after every few quests... and it never ends.

Also reinventing stuff and ditching it later, like artifact power, weapons, islands, warfronts, then stygia, soulbinds, covenants... in every expansion is just to confusing for a casual players. And if you start later in the expansion, where we get huge continent like Nazjatar where they again invent new stuff which just adds on the old... its just to much. I remember how lost was a friend of mine when he arrived in the middle of Nylotha. And he played since Vanilla... And SL looks like it will be even worse in every content patch.

quoted for truth...I stopped playing Retail for a variety of reasons but that was one of them (and I too started playing in 2005). System upon system upon system trying to cater to every niche and pleasing no one in the process and/or time-gated, MAU design driven mind-numbing repetitious content (with lipstick on a pig updating AP power ---> Covenants) that compelled you to repeat it on every alt for the entirety of the expansion was just too much for me in the end.

There are a lot of factors one can point to to try and explain the differences, most of them not good imho, between the Vanilla version of the game and today's Retail version (Legion onward basically) but it boils down to one basic simple thing. Vanilla, with 40 or mores zones and 2 continents and 60 levels was as the old saying goes "about the journey". The first few expansions had far fewer zones, but still more than later expansions, and levelling took some effort and time.

The moment WoW completely gave into the dogma that the game doesn't start until max level there was simply no way Blizzard could ever produce enough content to keep players busy...especially in 4 or 5 zones expansions...without creating all these systems upon systems upon systems found in the current version of the game.

That's not to say I think the current Retail player base would enjoy a return to the roots of WoW and a new Kalidamor sized continent or 2 and 40 or 50 levels that took time (or a fresh WoW 2.0). But it is a case of be careful what you ask for. Games that only "start" at the "end" will always leave you bored and disappointed very quickly whether its Blizzard or another company producing the game.

[Dakara]

If only we had access to alternative universe...

I would love to hear your gasps over:
- 3 more talent rows and 3-4 more spells in rotation
- having to farm Artifact Power for weapon
- having to pick right relics
- having to pick good traits for Netherlight Crucible
- having to farm artifact necklace
- pick right traits on armor, of course
- grind and pick right essence
- pick optimal corruption
- legendary questlines from WoD/MoP
- SL campaign/other stuff

ALTS WOULD BE SO MUCH FUN.

Dude, currently all you have to do is (max) hour of Torghast weekly for 5 weeks, campaign and rest are just gear drops. STILL we have people that call it 'alt unfriendly'.

The point being, all that crap wouldn't of been added if it carried over to the next expansion. One key feature that persists and can be expanded upon each expansion is a healthy "RPG" component of the game. And provided its not tied to play power, new player/alts can decide whether to invest the time or not. Instead we get systems layered upon systems, which are required for Player power progression that magically stop working at the end of an expansion.

The point I was making, in the post you quoted, is my Bank is full of Lego's, Artifacts and other crap which was very short lived and is now useless. Quite simply I'm over the arbitrary power grinds I would prefer returning to gear simply being gear and Lego's actually being Legendary for the rare few who acquire them... even if I'm not one of them.

But I love how all I have to do as an hour of Torghost for 5 weeks per alt for my Lego. That's 5 hours of time-gated content (per Alt) that I have literally zero desire because it's boring as fuck. And don't even get me started or Renown for Soulbinds and "farming" Conduits for each alt. Is it hard? No. Is it tedious and boring? Absolutely.

I just want to play my Alts in the content I enjoy.

[huth]

The point being, all that crap wouldn't of been added if it carried over to the next expansion. One key feature that persists and can be expanded upon each expansion is a healthy "RPG" component of the game.

But that won't keep people long-term. You still need to add new stuff either way. So you still get systems layered upon systems, and things get ever harder to get through because you keep getting more systems layered on.

[Dakara]

But that won't keep people long-term. You still need to add new stuff either way. So you still get systems layered upon systems, and things get ever harder to get through because you keep getting more systems layered on.

That's why I think "systems" need to go away.

Thinks like Challenge modes (via scaling), Garrisons as player housing without all the free mats/gold, Mage Tower via Scaling and Covenants without the player power could all still be "useful" in future expansions without being required for player power. In which case, the "layering" of systems doesn't matter because they aren't granting player power.

As an example, the Argent Squire/Gruntling with the Pony Bridle. A portable Bank/Mailbox earned from an expansion specific "grind" which offers no additional player power. Some players will go back to do it, others won't. But no one inviting you to their "+5 checking .IO" group will care either way.

Let the Power come from Gear and the "Expansion Systems/Features" be of a more cosmetic nature that New/Returning/Alt players can go back and do if they wish, but not for power.

If we do pick up some expansion specific powers along with way, (i.e. an extra talent row) that's fine. But they should be unlocked via the levelling process and not require X weeks of Choreghast + Renown catchup to unlock on every single character you want to play.

Just my 2c anyway. Personally, I used to fill in the down-time between Raid Tiers with Alts, but I haven't for the past 3 expansions (with the exception of late Legion Mage Tower) due to all the player power grinds when reaching cap. They were tedious enough the first time.

[Grax]

I wonder if there was ever a plan for 9.3.

I've wondered this myself. I understand that for 2020 and on into the foreseeable future that things are in quite the disarray for some people and companies, but Shadowlands doesn't feel like it has any direction, and surely planning had been going on for quite some time before the pandemic. Rather than "We have to delay planned content", it feels like there was not much of a plan to begin with.

Such an odd expansion. It feels. . . thin.

[Zorachus]

New game systems every expansion lately, is getting maddening. Blizzard just stop this already, Jesus guys.

Legion:
Artifact weapon, AP grind, Legnedaries, Netherlight Crucible, etc...

BfA;
Azerite gear, Azerite grind, Essences, Corruption gear, Cloak, etc...

Shadowlands:
Covenant gear, Anima grind, Soulbinds, Soul Ash grind, Legendaries, etc...


Holy cow Blizzard, stop this already. You develop a new expansion with all these new game systems, and then the very next expansion you toss all this stuff in the garbage, and create brand new systems again for the new expansion, and then 2 years later, throw it all away and start over. WTF, we don't need these crap systems in WoW.

Or if you are going to have it, keep the good stuff the player base likes, and revise it and continue it through the next expansion, don't throw it away and build all new systems from the ground up, there's just no point.

[huth]

Let the Power come from Gear and the "Expansion Systems/Features" be of a more cosmetic nature that New/Returning/Alt players can go back and do if they wish, but not for power.

And you'll see them get bashed for only adding "irrelevant" stuff in a matter of seconds. They'll have to add something for everybody, and they can't just keep piling on player power related systems, so those are necessarily time limited anyway. Might as well make it explicit.

New game systems every expansion lately, is getting maddening. Blizzard just stop this already, Jesus guys.

Lately? Find me one that didn't have any.

[Niwes]

let me fix the title quickly for april/may 2021:

Shadowlands: Rapidly falling the Ladder in Popularity

see what i done here ?

[tru]

I won't be back to retail until the heavy emphasis they always place on borrowed powers is done for.

10.0 replaces system 9.0 with a different bar different color and name. Oh and don't forget the same shit talent system stays untouched.
The longest I've been unsubscribed since I first started at the end of vanilla. And this next patch is more of the same. I want to see TBC against least for a little while then just call it quits. There will never be another subscription based mmo that will offer what wow did in the first 6-8 years.

Maybe elden ring will be good entertainment for a while.

[Laerrus]

There was a time when I would have totally agreed with you OP but, the difference a few months makes.

I love the themes and zones associated with SL, but I am not particularly thrilled with the idea of running Mythic+ in order to be able to raid and Destruction Warlocks are in a shitty place this expansion (I fucking hate Affliction). Covenant's also feel like Garrison 2.0.

In between tending my garden out in the backyard and trying to find a good CBD to THC ratio so I can stay focused while high, I've been leveling up some new toons in Classic WoW. That game might be a dinosaur but I am having a lot more fun there right now.

[kaminaris]

New game systems every expansion lately, is getting maddening. Blizzard just stop this already, Jesus guys.

Legion:
Artifact weapon, AP grind, Legnedaries, Netherlight Crucible, etc...

BfA;
Azerite gear, Azerite grind, Essences, Corruption gear, Cloak, etc...

Shadowlands:
Covenant gear, Anima grind, Soulbinds, Soul Ash grind, Legendaries, etc...


Holy cow Blizzard, stop this already. You develop a new expansion with all these new game systems, and then the very next expansion you toss all this stuff in the garbage, and create brand new systems again for the new expansion, and then 2 years later, throw it all away and start over. WTF, we don't need these crap systems in WoW.

Or if you are going to have it, keep the good stuff the player base likes, and revise it and continue it through the next expansion, don't throw it away and build all new systems from the ground up, there's just no point.

Thats not it. You were close but not quite.

1.
First of all anything related to "perma gear" is fail from design point of view so artifact weapon, neck and systems that comes along with it. Netherlight cruc, essences.
As there is just no way for them to transition to next expansion - effectively after couple of expansions taking out half of your inventory slots.

And these are systems.

2.
Ap/Anima/Azerite is just a currency. Ultimately the idea wasn't bad. But the implementations were terribad. I believe it should be somewhat similar to destiny 2 reputation system that lets you get fancy stuff by doing reputation quests.

3.
Instead of designing temporary systems, they should just have make long lasting game modes that STAYS thru expansions, like continuing and improving islands/visions/warfronts/mage towers. Because unless they iterate over, no feature is going to be good.

[Dakara]

And you'll see them get bashed for only adding "irrelevant" stuff in a matter of seconds. They'll have to add something for everybody, and they can't just keep piling on player power related systems, so those are necessarily time limited anyway. Might as well make it explicit.



Lately? Find me one that didn't have any.

I dunno... maybe. The playbase has changed over the years, but WOW was at it's peak back when Gear was gear, there were no layered systems grinds and Legendaries were extremely rare.

Part of that was of course the post WC3 Hype, especially TBC/Wrath, but when everyone can get a Legendary, everyone needs a Legendary... and the "prestige" is lost as they simply become wearable Talents.

I never expected to get an of the Lego's in days gone by, although I did manage to get one while it was current.
Personally I think these expansion long system grinds are doing more harm than good. I mean, did anyone actually enjoy Essence Farming? Do people genuinely enjoy Torghast weekly for Ash? Or do they simply do it because they "have to"?

[Nyel]

But that won't keep people long-term. You still need to add new stuff either way. So you still get systems layered upon systems, and things get ever harder to get through because you keep getting more systems layered on.

You can add smaller systems that enhance gameplay, but you need a system that stays during every expansion which makes your work worthwhile. Something like the Champion Point system in ESO - this thing rewards you during each expansion and keeps you hooked to do content as you constantly level up in this horizontal progression system.

If they made borrowed power exactly like this it would be way more fun. But we already know all of the Covenant stuff is removed in 1.5 years, so the excitement and reward feels less big. Why should I heavily attach to a feature that’s not here to stay? I don’t want to lose all the progression a made during an expansion, but that’s exactly what’s happening since Legion. And the worst part: at the start of a new expansion you’re weaker than at the end of the last expansion and you get considerably weaker during the level up process - this doesn’t make sense and it feels incredibly bad; and it takes very long until you again feel powerful.

[Lahis]

Do people genuinely enjoy Torghast weekly for Ash? Or do they simply do it because they "have to"?

I despise Torghast but still suffer it every week to get the Soul Ash.

And now they even removed the cap on Soul Ash so the pain will never end.

[LordVargK]

New game systems every expansion lately, is getting maddening. Blizzard just stop this already, Jesus guys.

Shadowlands:
Covenant gear, Anima grind, Soulbinds, Soul Ash grind, Legendaries, etc...

Covenant gear is not a game system. Anima is not a game system. Legendaries and soul ash are part of the same system.

SL has far less systems than Legion and BfA (as of 9.0.5), Blizzard is already stopping with the introduction of new systems, so your complaining is pretty unnecessary.

[Antontein]

I honestly try to think what SL is doing diffrently than other expansions that make it lose it's 'depth'.

Before Legion raiding was only way to progress your character, there were also side game called PVP with different sets. After Legion you can progress to max available item level through raids, dungeons, PVP.

What even 'let players progress the way they want' means? If I want progress from fishing, I should get better items from fishing? What else than hardest PVE bosses or hardest PVP opponents should give me best gear? Or do you think doing easy and geting random item level boost was 'progression'?

What class kits you had re-earn? If anything we get few more spells in endgame.

'Make classes whole again' is another empty word, I suggest we won't go there.

SL is time-gated (Season 1 is not timegated in any way for like a month, I remind) as alternative to grinding from Legion/BfA. And it's just for few soulbinds and cosmetics, everything else were released last year already. Like it, don't like, I don't think grinding make any 'depth'.

EXACTLY THIS.
People say these empty phrases and they dont even know what they mean. "Let us progress as we want or make the class whole again" are so blank words it hurts. You dont even know what you want. You just say it for sake of staying angry and discontent...

[D3athsting]

There was a time when I would have totally agreed with you OP but, the difference a few months makes.

I love the themes and zones associated with SL, but I am not particularly thrilled with the idea of running Mythic+ in order to be able to raid and Destruction Warlocks are in a shitty place this expansion (I fucking hate Affliction). Covenant's also feel like Garrison 2.0.

In between tending my garden out in the backyard and trying to find a good CBD to THC ratio so I can stay focused while high, I've been leveling up some new toons in Classic WoW. That game might be a dinosaur but I am having a lot more fun there right now.

Nailed it, i entered a new guild 1 month before SL, after hitting 60 officers and raiders started spamming m+ with their premades of friends and pugging (that is terrible 90% of the times) or grouping with socials was my only chance to run m+ so when the raid opened i started with a 10+ ilvl handicap compared to the ones who spammed m+ with premade groups ending benched with no chance of going into hc and later mythic progress at all, on top of that there's terrible loot management of this expansion and my bad luck so i said F this and unsubbed