Shadowlands: Rapidly Climbing the Ladder in Popularity

[Nyel]

Covenant gear is not a game system. Anima is not a game system. Legendaries and soul ash are part of the same system.

SL has far less systems than Legion and BfA (as of 9.0.5), Blizzard is already stopping with the introduction of new systems, so your complaining is pretty unnecessary.

No, not really. The problem is, the systems itself are overly complex and eventually unnecessary and redundant. Covenants alone are too much at once: you have the borrowed power, then you have the Soulbinds, then you have the conduits (Conduit Energy), then you have all of the Covenant buildings and minigames (Anima). On top of that you have The Maw stuff (Venari & Stygia) and you have Torghast for Soul Ash. And you have these useless additional Covenant specific resources for whatever kind of gimmick or fluff they offer you.

The Covenants alone are system on top of system on top of system. Neither Artifact Weapons nor Azerite Gear were so unnecessary complex. And the worst part: in 1.5 years all of this is removed and was just another tedious gameplay mechanic for... yeah, for what? Definitely not for fun.

[LordVargK]

No, not really. The problem is, the systems itself are overly complex and eventually unnecessary and redundant.

I usually play strategy games, so maybe I have a different view on things, but nothing in WoW is "overly complex". There are things, that are badly explained in the game, I give you that. But most systems in WoW are "set and forget". If you don't understand them, there are tons of guides to help you, but really, those are not needed imo.

Covenants alone are too much at once: you have the borrowed power

Depends on class/spec, really. I as a Kyrian Demo WL don't even use my class ability in my rotation (and I'm doing pretty good damage without it). So "power" is sometimes a exaggeration. And it's way better (or simpler) than what Artifacts and Essences/Azerite offered you.

then you have the Soulbinds, then you have the conduits (Conduit Energy)

Again, Soulbinds are set and forget and conduits have a lesser impact than their pendants in BfA and Legion (Azerite, Essences, Netherlight crucible, Artifacts). Once you've read one Bluepost on those (to treat them as additional gear slots) they (and their ranks) become pretty clear. You also don't have much choice that could confuse you: 4 impactful conduits per spec, 1 that enhances your class ability. Similarly with Soulbinds: There are only 1-2 traits in their trees that are even worth thinking about. And the difference between having a perfectly skilled soulbind or not is not even worth discussing. It's really no comparison to the power Artifacts, Azerite and Essences brought you.

then you have all of the Covenant buildings and minigames (Anima).

I did not count them as game systems, because the poster I replied to did not mention similar systems in Legion and BfA, but counted those in SL, because else their list of systems in SL would have been too short to complain about. But let's compare this to Legion and BfA:
Anima = Order ressources = War ressources. Granted, Anima is not as widely available as the other two, but their function is the same: To upgrade your base of operations over time and serve as currency for activities in it (e.g Missions). Remember, in Legion order ressources were also initially required to gain Artifact Knowledge, which was needed to be able to level your Artifact at a reasonable pace. In SL anima is entirely optional. If you don't do the weekly quest, you would get your renown from other sources the following week.

On top of that you have The Maw stuff (Venari & Stygia)

Honestly, I forget that those exist, because they are so useless. But okay, in Legion you had Suramar (and the mana grind!), which also featured another system: The withered training scenario. Undoubtly, Suramar is the superior endgame zone (even with the mascerade shenanigans), but in terms of effort (and number of systems available in the game) it is at least equal to the maw, because progress in the maw is, in contrast to suramar, not required to enter some dungeons. So, again: Suramar was less optional than the Maw is.

and you have Torghast for Soul Ash.

In BfA you had Warfronts and IEs (and later visions), in Legion you had the legendary grind all other parts of the game. And Torghast is essentially meaningless once you got your desired Legendaries, which could have taken much, much longer in Legion.

And you have these useless additional Covenant specific resources for whatever kind of gimmick or fluff they offer you.

Sure. And Legion had tons of those things as well: Sightless eyes farming(or what that currency is called), later the mage tower, the minigames you had in your class halls, the fishing artifact... BfA had nothing like that, I think. Besides the cosmetics grind in IEs, but I already mentioned them, so I can't really count that twice.

The Covenants alone are system on top of system on top of system. Neither Artifact Weapons nor Azerite Gear were so unnecessary complex. And the worst part: in 1.5 years all of this is removed and was just another tedious gameplay mechanic for... yeah, for what? Definitely not for fun.

The good thing is, that contrary to everything in BfA or Legion the systems in SL (except Torghast) require no effort on your part. If you ignore them, you get everything from playing the game eventually (and pretty fast imo). Conduits are drops from PvE content, Renown is earned passively from PvE (and PvP?) content. Torghast is the only thing you'll have to invest time in, and that's not much. Also as I said, I don't see how anything in SL is unnecessarily complex, from the aquisition to the benefits it is quite clear to me. And deterministic. No more hoping for the right corruptions. No more TF/WF hopes on trinkets that come from raids/WQs you cleared a year ago.

I have hopefully made my point: In a side-by-side comparison SL has definitly not more, but arguably less Systems than Legion and BfA. And nearly all of them require way less time investment than before. Whether or not those systems are more complicated is up to the individual player (but honestly, everything is better than corruption), but overall I can't take someone seriously, who complains about the systems in SL, but praises Legion. Either that player does not play SL or has not played the beginning of Legion.

[Super Kami Dende]

New game systems every expansion lately, is getting maddening. Blizzard just stop this already, Jesus guys.

Legion:
Artifact weapon, AP grind, Legnedaries, Netherlight Crucible, etc...

BfA;
Azerite gear, Azerite grind, Essences, Corruption gear, Cloak, etc...

Shadowlands:
Covenant gear, Anima grind, Soulbinds, Soul Ash grind, Legendaries, etc...


Holy cow Blizzard, stop this already. You develop a new expansion with all these new game systems, and then the very next expansion you toss all this stuff in the garbage, and create brand new systems again for the new expansion, and then 2 years later, throw it all away and start over. WTF, we don't need these crap systems in WoW.

Or if you are going to have it, keep the good stuff the player base likes, and revise it and continue it through the next expansion, don't throw it away and build all new systems from the ground up, there's just no point.

Seems like a personal problem to me, I like new game systems every expansion. It adds variety. The game is nearly 2 decades old. Hell when most games get a sequel they have new systems added to vary it from the previous games.

[paxen]

But let's compare this to Legion and BfA: Anima = Order ressources = War ressources.

I think this is a crucial part that gets overlooked a lot. We instinctually compare Anima to Artifact Power, but it's not. Artifact Power is just gone, and with it a huge part of the grind of Legion and BfA. Or maybe not totally gone - you could argue that Soul Ash is the new AP?

Player power in SL comes from: soul ash, legendary recipies, conduits, renown, and gear.

This is extremely comparable to Legion: your Soulbind is the equivalent to the Artifact Weapon: you collect conduits instead of relics, and you get renown instead of completing the class campaign (which unlocked your third relic slot)*. I dare anybody to say that the SL legendary system is worse than the Legion RNG legendaries.

*Conduit energy is a bandaid patch, but the alternative would be (and was!) that conduits were exactly like relics: consumed when inserted into your soulbind/weapon.

So for player power I do claim that Shadowlands has the exact same number of systems as Legion (2), but has also dumped Artifact Power.

[shise]

I think that it is obvious that we will end up being able to equip the "full" set of legendries. That would keep us farming ash and whatever else they come up with.

It is scary because it is an efficient, dull system. So they might go with it... It ensures that people will keep online, because everyone wants legendries, they are mandatory too if you want to be able to do any PvE or even PvP without being destroyed by others.

So in essence, but in a more attractive package, we have the BfA system all over again after all. Not so much content but gated on loads of grind. They make it in a way that, if you skip it, you are far behind everyone else, to the point that it´s not even fun to play your character.

[Osmeric]

Seems like a personal problem to me,

Every problem someone has with the game is, necessarily, a personal problem. The issue for Blizzard is there appear to be a whole lot of correlated reactions to this expansion among the players.

Me, I'm having no trouble being a former customer. Stopped trying in December; sub ran out in February. I can talk to former guild mates in Discord if I want to. No urge to masochistically continue to try to find enjoyment in the game itself. I continue to pay attention to where the game is going though. Not because I want to play it, but because I want to be watching when the shit fully hits the fan at Blizzard.

[Tyrannica]

I dunno... maybe. The playbase has changed over the years, but WOW was at it's peak back when Gear was gear, there were no layered systems grinds and Legendaries were extremely rare.

Part of that was of course the post WC3 Hype, especially TBC/Wrath, but when everyone can get a Legendary, everyone needs a Legendary... and the "prestige" is lost as they simply become wearable Talents.

I never expected to get an of the Lego's in days gone by, although I did manage to get one while it was current.
Personally I think these expansion long system grinds are doing more harm than good. I mean, did anyone actually enjoy Essence Farming? Do people genuinely enjoy Torghast weekly for Ash? Or do they simply do it because they "have to"?

at least essence farming back in BfA had quite different stuffs to do and to complete and tested all your wow skills, i think they only left out pet battles.

But those had to be account wide, you shouldn't farm essences with every alt you had.

ap/azerite/anima grinds are just cancer its not a fun currency and it feels not that useful to do over and over again, especially in the final patch of an expansion.



Worst expansion is the one that bores me to even logg in and i think SL is a top candiate for that...i have trouble to log into that game and find fun there. That game is not fun to begin with, but before i am gone will leave some constructive critisism of course.

All that Thorgast grinds - the main feature of SL- showed me for instance(and i completed corridors layer 8) is, that even Diablo 3 Greater Rifts have far better design than that. There is more diversity in mob and level design and every single mob has the possiblity to drop great loot. Diablo like features cannot translate well with wow and thats entirely due to the reward structure in this game.

And the rewards based on time are really underwhelming in this game, the most important currency is time.

In past expansions, stuff like random bgs were much better rewarded due to how the game was structured, heck even normal dungeons had far better rewards, yes i am talking about TBC( unrestricted Badges of Justice), Cataclysm(Dungeon rep tabards, no restricitons and cap) and WoD(conquest point pvp gear that upscaled without restrictions).

Thus, SL isn't fun, because the design team has no clue how to design a rewarding and fun game anymore as they lost all their important senior developers that designed the game since vanilla and tbc. Ion joined much later and is a raid lead designer, he knows his stuff the raids are good, but he knows little or nothing about the rest of the game i wonder why he is director, its just a title to blame a person what wow needs is a real game director who knows how games are supposed to work in terms of fun.

Afaik, a game that is not fun anymore is a chore, and and ends beeing a successful game.

The main issue with modern WoW is definately not just the content drought in SL, a games content must be so good that its always fun not just a few months till some pve raid content expires.

[Zorachus]

No, not really. The problem is, the systems itself are overly complex and eventually unnecessary and redundant. Covenants alone are too much at once: you have the borrowed power, then you have the Soulbinds, then you have the conduits (Conduit Energy), then you have all of the Covenant buildings and minigames (Anima). On top of that you have The Maw stuff (Venari & Stygia) and you have Torghast for Soul Ash. And you have these useless additional Covenant specific resources for whatever kind of gimmick or fluff they offer you.

The Covenants alone are system on top of system on top of system. Neither Artifact Weapons nor Azerite Gear were so unnecessary complex. And the worst part: in 1.5 years all of this is removed and was just another tedious gameplay mechanic for... yeah, for what? Definitely not for fun.

Well said.

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at least essence farming back in BfA had quite different stuffs to do and to complete and tested all your wow skills, i think they only left out pet battles.

But those had to be account wide, you shouldn't farm essences with every alt you had.

ap/azerite/anima grinds are just cancer its not a fun currency and it feels not that useful to do over and over again, especially in the final patch of an expansion.



Worst expansion is the one that bores me to even logg in and i think SL is a top candiate for that...i have trouble to log into that game and find fun there. That game is not fun to begin with, but before i am gone will leave some constructive critisism of course.

All that Thorgast grinds - the main feature of SL- showed me for instance(and i completed corridors layer 8) is, that even Diablo 3 Greater Rifts have far better design than that. There is more diversity in mob and level design and every single mob has the possiblity to drop great loot. Diablo like features cannot translate well with wow and thats entirely due to the reward structure in this game.

And the rewards based on time are really underwhelming in this game, the most important currency is time.

In past expansions, stuff like random bgs were much better rewarded due to how the game was structured, heck even normal dungeons had far better rewards, yes i am talking about TBC( unrestricted Badges of Justice), Cataclysm(Dungeon rep tabards, no restricitons and cap) and WoD(conquest point pvp gear that upscaled without restrictions).

Thus, SL isn't fun, because the design team has no clue how to design a rewarding and fun game anymore as they lost all their important senior developers that designed the game since vanilla and tbc. Ion joined much later and is a raid lead designer, he knows his stuff the raids are good, but he knows little or nothing about the rest of the game i wonder why he is director, its just a title to blame a person what wow needs is a real game director who knows how games are supposed to work in terms of fun.

Afaik, a game that is not fun anymore is a chore, and and ends beeing a successful game.

The main issue with modern WoW is definately not just the content drought in SL, a games content must be so good that its always fun not just a few months till some pve raid content expires.

Exactly. WoW Shadowlands is just not "fun". It's lost its luster and this expansion has no soul it feels lifeless and generic.

Waiting for the white knight simps, that defend Blizzard and this game no matter what, to tell me how wrong I am, and I have no clue LOL ok.

[Kauko]

How much energy and time went into islands, warfronts, visions, mage tower... so that they threw them all away.

Its one thing if you make dungeons that are a part of one system and when the expansion ends you add new dungeons and old ones stay in the system. But they made whole new systems with islands, warfronts, visions, mt... and to throw them ALL away is just bad management...

And its similar with many other things in wow. Artifact weapons, Azerite gear, Soulbinds... Stop inventing the wheel every year... Improve what you have.

[Zorachus]

How much energy and time went into islands, warfronts, visions, mage tower... so that they threw them all away.

Its one thing if you make dungeons that are a part of one system and when the expansion ends you add new dungeons and old ones stay in the system. But they made whole new systems with islands, warfronts, visions, mt... and to throw them ALL away is just bad management...

And its similar with many other things in wow. Artifact weapons, Azerite gear, Soulbinds... Stop inventing the wheel every year... Improve what you have.

Exactly this.

[Lahis]

Seems like a personal problem to me, I like new game systems every expansion. It adds variety. The game is nearly 2 decades old. Hell when most games get a sequel they have new systems added to vary it from the previous games.

Blizz just likes to make their new systems completely worthless to play.

Legion and BFA: rising Artifact power meant you shouldn't play and grind now, grinding up the weapon/neck will be MUCH easier few months from now on when the AP gains/requirements have been significantly buffed/nerfed.

Shadowlands: you earn so little Anima that unlocking everything tied behind it takes more years than than expansion's lifespan. If they buff the gains significantly in upcoming patch, it'll be repeat of Legion/BFA where playing and grinding now was complete and utter waste of time.
As for conduits and covenants: Conduits are worth fuckall, having less than 0.5 % difference in DPS. Covenant choice doesn't matter, because the spell is either completely worthless regardless what you pick, or completely OP when you don't have a choice but have to pick the one that actually performs.

[justandulas]

Another empty word.

What was 'depth' of Legion? Farming AP, praying for legos/titanforging?
What was 'depth' of MoP? Farming dailies, doing circles in shrines?
What was 'depth of Wrath? Farming easy dungeons, clearing 5 year old raid, doing circles in Dalaran?

Well, for starters, by this point in legion we were 2 major patches in

Secondly, yes, the legion class halls and artifact weapons were the best rpg element put into WoW in 10+ Years. Without a doubt legion was the best modern WoW expac.

I don’t like to give bfa any credit but even that was deeper content wise than SL. Both have content that is a chore to do but compare island expedition rewards to rewards from torghast

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Spot on.
WOW going "Seasonal" and re-inventing the wheel every expansion has destroyed any remaining RPG elements of this game.

No Ion, Covenants are not a meaningful RPG choice unless you tell me they're going to carry over into the next expansion, and the next, and the next... and I'll have still have my Artifact weapon, and HoA, and various Legendaries acquired over the last 16 years. But no, there will be some great end of expansion "event" that negates anything and my Lego's can sit in the bank collecting dust with the rest of the oranges.

This. Modern WoW resembles Diablo 3 seasons more than it does a perpetual world like everquest or vanilla WoW. It needs a rebuild from the ground up at this point, half a decade of borrowed power systems have left WoW feeling impotent compared to the competition like eso and ff14

[Toybox]

I don’t like to give bfa any credit but even that was deeper content wise than SL. Both have content that is a chore to do but compare island expedition rewards to rewards from torghast

Only if you care about cosmetics. Take that out of it, & you're left with a very finite grind versus a very time-heavy one for those further up the raiding chain, & as average as Torghast in its current iteration is, I'd take it over Islands every single time.

(It could do with some more cosmetics, though )

[justandulas]

Yeah, I personally don't think true sequels work well for MMOs. It was a terrible decision for EverQuest. It was terrible decision for Destiny.

Destiny 2 is a fantastic game, and everquest 2’s main problem (besides being conceived for the wrong corporate reasons) was they actually had too good graphics which hamstrung their ability to bring in players vs WoW at the time that ran on toasters and flip phones (not really but you get my point)

Eq2 wasn’t as good or deep as eq1 but it is a decent game all things considered but games that push the limit on graphics never have a huge population for obvious reasons

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The real issue is, as wow goes on. it more and more feels like a job to maintain raiding ability at a mythic level. I put up with it for a few expansions in a row now, but finally SL was so bad I had to ask myself if I was really having fun anymore or just helping to keep the team going.

Feelsbad

Exactly my position. I’m only playing for my raid crew of many years, and as a MT if I quit that’s gonna hamstring then the rest of the expac (I will mid summer to care for newborn so I do have an out)

So now I need to find a mythic tank to replace me so I can leave without hurting feelings. If it wasn’t for my raid friends, I’d have peaced out on SL by Jan/feb. it just feels like seasonal d3 more than wow

[LordVargK]

I despise Torghast but still suffer it every week to get the Soul Ash.

And now they even removed the cap on Soul Ash so the pain will never end.

I just wished Souls Ash would work like Conquest and Valor. Doing it weekly is boring, but it makes for a fun afternoon every now and then.

[Super Kami Dende]

Blizz just likes to make their new systems completely worthless to play.

Legion and BFA: rising Artifact power meant you shouldn't play and grind now, grinding up the weapon/neck will be MUCH easier few months from now on when the AP gains/requirements have been significantly buffed/nerfed.

Shadowlands: you earn so little Anima that unlocking everything tied behind it takes more years than than expansion's lifespan. If they buff the gains significantly in upcoming patch, it'll be repeat of Legion/BFA where playing and grinding now was complete and utter waste of time.
As for conduits and covenants: Conduits are worth fuckall, having less than 0.5 % difference in DPS. Covenant choice doesn't matter, because the spell is either completely worthless regardless what you pick, or completely OP when you don't have a choice but have to pick the one that actually performs.

I get your point, but plenty of People(myself included) play MMO's that don't care about shit like how long stuff will take to unlock everything, or % of dps increases.

Blizzard systems get fucked mostly because of that difference. If there's too much power behind it, *minmaxers* complain they need to play too much or grind too much. If there isn't enough power behind it *minmaxers* complain they are pointless and they don't have enough to do. The problem being the time some minmaxers have to put into the game is different to what others do.

Some random loser NEET that has 16hrs a day to play WoW will likely always complain about not having enough to do. Whereas someone who actually has a life outside of Videogames will Complain if something takes up what little time they do have to play just to remain competitive.

I.e. You can't impress everyone and Blizzard balances gameplay towards the majority of their players. They are literally a business and use the statistics they have to do so.

So basically most People that feel the game isn't what they want are actually the minority.

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half a decade of borrowed power systems have left WoW feeling impotent compared to the competition like eso and ff14

the fuck are you even talking about. Literally every time I return to FFXIV each Expac my gear is utterly useless and my Relic weapons are replaced.

[justandulas]

I get your point, but plenty of People(myself included) play MMO's that don't care about shit like how long stuff will take to unlock everything, or % of dps increases.

Blizzard systems get fucked mostly because of that difference. If there's too much power behind it, *minmaxers* complain they need to play too much or grind too much. If there isn't enough power behind it *minmaxers* complain they are pointless and they don't have enough to do. The problem being the time some minmaxers have to put into the game is different to what others do.

Some random loser NEET that has 16hrs a day to play WoW will likely always complain about not having enough to do. Whereas someone who actually has a life outside of Videogames will Complain if something takes up what little time they do have to play just to remain competitive.

I.e. You can't impress everyone and Blizzard balances gameplay towards the majority of their players. They are literally a business and use the statistics they have to do so.

So basically most People that feel the game isn't what they want are actually the minority.

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the fuck are you even talking about. Literally every time I return to FFXIV each Expac my gear is utterly useless and my Relic weapons are replaced.

You are reaching if you’re comparing replacing outdated gear for new expacs to entire systems coming and going

It’s simple... while WoW is removing spells, abilities, ways to play and adding nothing but lame talent trees and no new abilities, while giving and taking borrowed power... eventually we’re left with years of content wasted with nothing of value added to our characters or skills

Both ff14 and eso build on your character rather than take away. Expansions build you up and the world up rather than shrink it and turn it into Diablo 3 seasons the mmorpg

Does modern WoW resemble d3 systems or everquest more? Because old WoW would be more eq and modern WoW is far more d3 inspired than proper mmorpg inspired. It’s devolved into an mmo arpg

Wow feels less than it did in years past or lesser than its competition quality wise. They’ve spent too much time seasonalizing it for people who dislike WoW, and at the same time losing sight of what makes an rpg an rpg. Character building. I should never look at my dude from 2 expansions ago and say he’d beat a raid team of my current character without any effort.

[Waylander]

... and I spend more time alt tabbed while auto running or flying to quests/areas than I have in pretty much any other time in the games history except Vanilla.

This. The travel-vs-actual-gameplay ratio is really off in SL.

[Wangming]

the fuck are you even talking about. Literally every time I return to FFXIV each Expac my gear is utterly useless and my Relic weapons are replaced.

That's just natural gear progression. But you don't lose entire game systems or half your toolkit. Pretending it is similar to artifact weapons is disingenuous at best.

[Flurryfang]

And just as quickly falling down the ladder again....