Why are people so obsessed with high ilevels??

[Beuargh]

I do not understand why so many people want higher ilevels just for the sake of it.

If you are not doing Mythic raiding or at the high end of PvP ladders you literally have zero business having access or even having reasoning to have higher i level gear upwards of 220+. If you are not doing these activities why do you want it? Why do you need it? Hello? Higher ilevel is a means to an end, why has this been forgotten for expansions on end?

I can't get my head round this mentality.

it's an MMORPG. if you don't understand why people want to progress their character, then there is not much to tell you....

now there is something I don't understand: why do you even care about it? just focus on your chars, your guild, M+ group or whatever the F you do in this game, I don't care about it, it doesn't matter to me or my chars progress. so why would you care about what I'm doing in this game? am I stealing gear from you?

[Tarba]

I do not understand why so many people want higher ilevels just for the sake of it.

If you are not doing Mythic raiding or at the high end of PvP ladders you literally have zero business having access or even having reasoning to have higher i level gear upwards of 220+. If you are not doing these activities why do you want it? Why do you need it? Hello? Higher ilevel is a means to an end, why has this been forgotten for expansions on end?

I can't get my head round this mentality.

...
If you want to pvp you need stuff else you get destroyed.
If you want to solo content you need stuff.
If you want to carry people you need stuff.
If you want to get in pu groups you need stuff.
Also it's a reward game. Not a fun game. Like a slot machine. People expect to win sometimes.

[MoanaLisa]

Not really. You can progress in a raid. You can find players that take your for your performance or personality. Gear is the means to an end, not the end itself.

For many, ilevel is indeed an end in itself as it is the primary measure of strength in a social game where character strength rules and determines pecking order when strangers play together.

Given how it's treated in game—by players and developers—it's the primary measure of progression. Blizzard actively encourages the idea that if your ilevel hasn't gone up in reasonable increments over time then you're not progressing. On the darker side it's the easiest indicator of dick-size available. That's unfortunate but likely unavoidable. Blizzard approves of this and has over time turned the PVE side of the game from being primarily co-operative to primarily competitive.

Most players either decide to opt out of this by doing low-level dungeons, LFR, or just going it alone. Others will try to do what they can to get to the requirements of whatever meta the pickup groups are demanding. Many, perhaps the majority, leave after leveling at the start of a new expansion.

To my mind, PVE group activities should, in the best world, be co-operative. Blizzard has managed to provide the tools and is actively OK with introducing so many competitive elements to PVE that co-operation takes a back seat to competitive tropes.

[Kauko]

iLvl is not the problem, insane dps increase is. Why do we need so much difference between 10ilvls? Who benefits from it?

This is one of the reasons so many players can hide their skill or lack of it behind the gear. Lower the dps increase with ilvl and skill difference will be obvious immediately. In current system a bad player that bought his gear with boosts will most of the time do more dps than some skilled player that earns his gear on his own, but had bad luck with drops...

[oldgeezer]

As a primarily solo player I'm soft capped at ~200 which is absolutely fine for the content I do. When 9.1 arrives I'll work on increasing it, but for now I'm taking it easy. Relax, people.

[tacoloco]

Another fun topic we've never talk about before

I do not understand why so many people want higher ilevels just for the sake of it.

The reason is simple. Gear progression is the primary way to progress someone's character.

Not really. You can progress in a raid. You can find players that take your for your performance or personality. Gear is the means to an end, not the end itself.

The comment you're replying to is talking about the stuff OP talked about in the second paragraph of their post. For people who aren't raiding or other higher level content, gear *is* an end because it's pretty much the only way to progress without doing those other things.

[tomten]

Not really. You can progress in a raid. You can find players that take your for your performance or personality. Gear is the means to an end, not the end itself.

And you universally decided this is the case for all players?
For me, the gear is the end, once I reach BiS, why would i keep playing? I mean, obvs, i will, cuz I like the game but thats my mentality about gear.
Certainly its not so I can do more of the same content i've already beaten countless times before.

[shise]

I do not understand why so many people want higher ilevels just for the sake of it.

If you are not doing Mythic raiding or at the high end of PvP ladders you literally have zero business having access or even having reasoning to have higher i level gear upwards of 220+. If you are not doing these activities why do you want it? Why do you need it? Hello? Higher ilevel is a means to an end, why has this been forgotten for expansions on end?

I can't get my head round this mentality.

Because you literally pay money to have the chance to get it.

And yes, you want to have high HP numbers, or high damage numbers, whatever, because that is a part of upgrading your character, even if you do not wish to use it. You are none to tell people that they should have no zero business having access to it, everyone has as much righty as you.

[kranur]

Progression is normal -> heroic -> mythic. Or +5 -> +10 -> +15. Regardless of ilvl. If dude can beat 15 in 200 ilvl, and you cant do it in 215 livl - than you're less powerful, even if your ilvl is better.

What relevance that does that have? Content progression is one thing, character power is another.

[iinverse]

I don't know if you are being purposefully obtuse or not, but he said "power progression".

Character power and player skill level are not the same thing.

Its directly tied in WoW. Skill is the main measure of progress and power. Ilvl difference can give you sometning like +20% - + 50% dps (if you're skillful enough to utilize it, of course, it can be much worse if you can't), while skilled player can do 100-300% better with the same ilvl. Constantly see it in pug raids.

[Echo of Soul]

I do not understand why so many people want higher ilevels just for the sake of it.

If you are not doing Mythic raiding or at the high end of PvP ladders you literally have zero business having access or even having reasoning to have higher i level gear upwards of 220+. If you are not doing these activities why do you want it? Why do you need it? Hello? Higher ilevel is a means to an end, why has this been forgotten for expansions on end?

I can't get my head round this mentality.

If you removed gear from mythic raids and had it only be a prestige mode, do you think a lot of people would do it?

[Niwes]

I do not understand why so many people want higher ilevels just for the sake of it.

If you are not doing Mythic raiding or at the high end of PvP ladders you literally have zero business having access or even having reasoning to have higher i level gear upwards of 220+. If you are not doing these activities why do you want it? Why do you need it? Hello? Higher ilevel is a means to an end, why has this been forgotten for expansions on end?

I can't get my head round this mentality.

maybe the reason why you dont get it is, that you never truely raided/played solely in PUG environments. that whole PUG community is so obsessed of mega out-performing, making high item levels for raids as well as for m+ the ultimative factor for them.

hell i did a torghast grp run today to clear layer 8 a bit faster than usual, by using a group. it was my first torghast grp run and i build the grp by my own. and after maybe 5 invites (where 2-3 ppl instantly leaved...), some guy asked me why i think i can get carried in layer 8 by ppl like him, with my 205 item level!!! i cleared layer 8 multiple times on 2 chars solo without dying (or maybe once, accidentally), with 195-200 or so. so... what shall i say ??? but to be fair: i found an apropriate grp in 15-20m with different ilevels (in the range 195-215) and did both layer 8 quick and easy. so, not all ppl are that obsessed by ilvl. but the VERY VERY majority is.

here is my rational explanation why:

deep in their minds, ppl remember how wow felt or feels when doing organized stuff. they always compare that with the results of PUGs. its natural that PUGs nearly ALWAYS are more difficult, more problematic and more hard to handle. by the simple fact that you do not know the mates and that you can/do not communicate much. its natural that the results of that „harder“ type of gameplay are more worse than in organized raiding/m+. as said, this fact is deep into everyones brain. and so their minds automatically try to compensate this technical-wise, by outperforming it. this mindset became a default, nobody brings this into question for a second, because everyone is doing it that way. even when already everyone is so adapted to the existing content, that not much communication is needed and a PUG 10+ run would not differ much from an organized run. but ppl ALWAYS have that outperforming mindset.

and so this itemlevel fixation is base of your daily PUG life.

[iinverse]

What relevance that does that have? Content progression is one thing, character power is another.

Pure character power means something maybe in single-player game. But when it comse to competition, gear mean much less than player skill. Good player can directly convert his skill to character performance in various content (it can be measured mathemathically), while bad player can't even fully utilize gain from ilvl increase.

Lets see character performance on the first boss in CN heroic on Warcraftlogs, took fire mage for example. Assuming different ilvl bracket (lest say 210 ilvl bracket), good fire mage can pull 5,7k+ dps, while the bad one - only something like 2k+. Almost 200% difference.
But if we took some better gear for fire mage, what will be the difference? Lets take 220 bracket (+10 ilvl). Even good fire mage gains only 20% dps increase (5,7k -> 6,8k).

So, improving your skill can make your character triple stronger, while increasing ilvl - something like 1/4 or 1/5.

Something like gear or ilvl can be the main measure of power progress in the games where you can't have much control on character (like a sh*tload of sh*t mobile games), or where gear stats/passives/etc provides you great advantage over non-geared player. Like some asian mmorpgs, where you can barely stratch more geared character (in WoW less geared but more skilled character can easily kill more geared, but less skilled character, maiking all its "power" miserable). Both approaches favor whales.

[Compher]

If you removed gear from mythic raids and had it only be a prestige mode, do you think a lot of people would do it?

People did the Ulduar hard modes, and I don't believe they offered better loot, maybe just more of it. M+ 20 doesn't offer better gear than 15 does, doesn't offer more valor, and plenty of people are still pushing keys for no reason other than a higher io and the challenge. So yeah, people would probably still raid mythic just for achievements and mounts/cosmetics.

[Dreyen]

Because it makes the game easier, why torture yourself with a low performing group? It's sad but that's how it is.

Like someone else mentionned, gear is just too insane nowadays too, such a big difference in dps when upgrading gear.

[ellieg]

Pure character power means something maybe in single-player game. But when it comse to competition, gear mean much less than player skill. Good player can directly convert his skill to character performance in various content (it can be measured mathemathically), while bad player can't even fully utilize gain from ilvl increase.

Lets see character performance on the first boss in CN heroic on Warcraftlogs, took fire mage for example. Assuming different ilvl bracket (lest say 210 ilvl bracket), good fire mage can pull 5,7k+ dps, while the bad one - only something like 2k+. Almost 200% difference.
But if we took some better gear for fire mage, what will be the difference? Lets take 220 bracket (+10 ilvl). Even good fire mage gains only 20% dps increase (5,7k -> 6,8k).

So, improving your skill can make your character triple stronger, while increasing ilvl - something like 1/4 or 1/5.

Something like gear or ilvl can be the main measure of power progress in the games where you can't have much control on character (like a sh*tload of sh*t mobile games), or where gear stats/passives/etc provides you great advantage over non-geared player. Like some asian mmorpgs, where you can barely stratch more geared character (in WoW less geared but more skilled character can easily kill more geared, but less skilled character, maiking all its "power" miserable). Both approaches favor whales.

Super skilled player vs ten year old mashing 2 buttons would be a difference of twice the damage. But skilled player vs the average player is no where near that and gear makes a much bigger difference. Go into m+15. Takes the most skilled player at 200 ilvl vs the average m+15 player in 226. Average is gonna shit all over his damage

[kranur]

Pure character power means something maybe in single-player game. But when it comse to competition, gear mean much less than player skill. Good player can directly convert his skill to character performance in various content (it can be measured mathemathically), while bad player can't even fully utilize gain from ilvl increase.

Lets see character performance on the first boss in CN heroic on Warcraftlogs, took fire mage for example. Assuming different ilvl bracket (lest say 210 ilvl bracket), good fire mage can pull 5,7k+ dps, while the bad one - only something like 2k+. Almost 200% difference.
But if we took some better gear for fire mage, what will be the difference? Lets take 220 bracket (+10 ilvl). Even good fire mage gains only 20% dps increase (5,7k -> 6,8k).

So, improving your skill can make your character triple stronger, while increasing ilvl - something like 1/4 or 1/5.

Something like gear or ilvl can be the main measure of power progress in the games where you can't have much control on character (like a sh*tload of sh*t mobile games), or where gear stats/passives/etc provides you great advantage over non-geared player. Like some asian mmorpgs, where you can barely stratch more geared character (in WoW less geared but more skilled character can easily kill more geared, but less skilled character, maiking all its "power" miserable). Both approaches favor whales.

That'a not true at all. Sure player skill plays the biggest role but character power is also needed, hence why you have world first guilds spending millions of gold on bie's and why everyone keeps farming the raids after the first clear.

If character power was so meaningless and irrelevant then there would be no point to keep farming the content after the first clear.

We're not talking good vs bad players, we're talking about the very same player vs himself in better gear.

Good player + gear = Good player
Good player + better gear = Better player

[Nellise]

People did the Ulduar hard modes, and I don't believe they offered better loot

It offered better gear, 7 ilvls higher (Algalon was all 239 for 25 man or 226 gear in 10 man, for instance).

[sil3ntearth]

it's a goal. especially when there's little else to do but chase better gear.

Player power is always a thing in RPGs.

[Compher]

It offered better gear, 7 ilvls higher (Algalon was all 239 for 25 man or 226 gear in 10 man, for instance).

Eh ok, the other half of my argument still stands. What does a M+20 offer over a M+15? Because people still do them with motivation other than gear related.