The Great Push - New Mythic+ Tournament

[Stardrift]

M+ vs a single raid encounter is a stupid comparison, they need to be compared as whole entities otherwise it's just cherry picking a scenario that suits you. Also, you responded to me - I haven't changed goalposts once in this entire thread.

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Holy shit, this gave me such massive fucking pushes-glasses-up-nose-before-speaking-ahem-m'lady cringe shivers.

"You're speaking to someone who knows philosophy." Fucking lol.

It's no feat. I took it in highschool years ago, enjoyed it, and follow it a little bit. Nbd about it

What I was getting at was that dumbass was using words from his encyclopedia incorrectly, trying to insult me with said incorrect terms, rather than have an actual discussion. So, I saw the opportunity to correct him to agitate, and it worked.

If you don't know philosophy, that's fine. You probably know a lot of stuff that I don't and vice versa. That's just how being two seperate human beings works, no? What matters is how you treat others and whether or not you have any knowledge on the things you're talking about.

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I can't wait for all the, "Bring the player, not the class" we will see during this.

Wonder when they're going to discover the "bring the content, not long months of nothing-systems and charge everybody $15 a month for it" philosophy.

[Nite92]

Raids are design to not be timer-based, yes that is correct. Glad we agree.

? Yes, but that was not our argument? Holy shit. Attention span of a fly?

[Stardrift]

Most of tbc/wrath dungeons were hallways with boss rooms.

Ramparts,blood furnace, all 4 Auchindoun, the tempest keep ones. All hallways with boss rooms.

UK,UP,AN,DP,FOS,HOR, all hallways with boss rooms and some like VH don’t even have the hallways.

At least those dungeons were.. dungeons. In SL and for the most part BFA (especially Mechagon), all we have are copy/paste cutouts of corners from the new zones. Or DOS, where it's just reused assets and very obviously cutting room floor material.

The playerbase has definitely noted that dungeons today are lazy copypastes with overly long hallways with trash mobs with inflated health and harder mechanics than the bosses themselves.

M+ is a fucking mess. You're racing against a timer to raise artificial difficulty, the bosses are zerg fests until later keys, and the trash are overstuffed bullet sponges with spammy mechanics, and there's a fucking lot of them. It is very clearly meant to keep you in the dungeon longer.

Whereas dungeons from earlier expansions, you just cut through the trash to get to the bosses. Normal bosses were zergs, heroic bosses had you do mechanics until you outgeared them. M+ lost the opportunity to add new mechanics, actually increase the difficulty, and increase the numbers to outlive your gear. Instead it's just a loot pinata made of lead.

[Azerate]

It's great they are trying something new. The MDI formula obviously is not working for anyone, neither the competitors, nor the viewers.

[jackofwind]

? Yes, but that was not our argument? Holy shit. Attention span of a fly?

Whoosh koosh b'goosh. You missed it, it's over there.

[rhorle]

The playerbase has definitely noted that dungeons today are lazy copypastes with overly long hallways with trash mobs with inflated health and harder mechanics than the bosses themselves.

Most dungeons have re-used assets. Have you even played the game or do you just think of random insults? Lol. Shattered halls timed runs wasn't difficult because of the bosses but the trash pulls. You keep assigning facts about things with your head cannon rather then what actually happened or existed.

[Relapses]

It's no feat. I took it in highschool years ago, enjoyed it, and follow it a little bit. Nbd about it

What I was getting at was that dumbass was using words from his encyclopedia incorrectly, trying to insult me with said incorrect terms, rather than have an actual discussion. So, I saw the opportunity to correct him to agitate, and it worked.

If you don't know philosophy, that's fine. You probably know a lot of stuff that I don't and vice versa. That's just how being two seperate human beings works, no? What matters is how you treat others and whether or not you have any knowledge on the things you're talking about.

Except you're not interested in discussing anything. You want to "correct" me because your philosophy background somehow gives you a deeper understanding of the English language and, for whatever reason, you want to exist in a world where two words can't have similar meanings. This is a semantic argument and is one of the single least interesting debates you can have on an internet forum. It's usually used as a last resort by people who don't have any valid rebukes for an argument presented... which is why I disengaged.

You passive-aggressively referring to me as a dumbass then smugly proclaiming you care about how people are treated is a whole new level of irony. Like I said a few posts ago: Please get the fuck over yourself.

Wonder when they're going to discover the "bring the content, not long months of nothing-systems and charge everybody $15 a month for it" philosophy.

You know what most people do when they feel a product isn't worth what they're paying for it? They stop paying for it. Try it out.

[ElDoorO]

Hear me out, for a chllanege: Golf

The WORST performing spec's and have the BEST people run those... see how it goes.

Additionally, my issue with M+ is we need weeks to fall off. There are easy weeks and hard weeks. We need a kind of measurement for each kind instead of simply 'did the fastest' and whatnot. Put weights on the M+ stuff, so easier weeks don't count as much as much more difficult weeks.

Just some ideas from a guy high on medications while sick. BAD ideas.. but still...

[Stardrift]

Most dungeons have re-used assets. Have you even played the game or do you just think of random insults? Lol. Shattered halls timed runs wasn't difficult because of the bosses but the trash pulls. You keep assigning facts about things with your head cannon rather then what actually happened or existed.

Don't think you know what head canon means

DOS is just cutting room floor stuff from BFA. To deny this is just silly lol. Dungeons today are, as I've said, copy/pastes from the world. MOTS for example. That entire dungeon is from a corner in Ardenweald. Dungeons used to be entirely original places. Yes, they are made of reused assets, but nothing quite like DOS where it's blatant cutting room floor material.

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Except you're not interested in discussing anything. You want to "correct" me because your philosophy background somehow gives you a deeper understanding of the English language and, for whatever reason, you want to exist in a world where two words can't have similar meanings. This is a semantic argument and is one of the single least interesting debates you can have on an internet forum. It's usually used as a last resort by people who don't have any valid rebukes for an argument presented... which is why I disengaged.

You passive-aggressively referring to me as a dumbass then smugly proclaiming you care about how people are treated is a whole new level of irony. Like I said a few posts ago: Please get the fuck over yourself.





You know what most people do when they feel a product isn't worth what they're paying for it? They stop paying for it. Try it out.

Only read the first line. You're not interested in discussing, as you keep derailing and inserting words you don't understand to try and insult me. Why do you continue to harass me without providing anything to the discussion?

[erifwodahs]

DOS is just cutting room floor stuff from BFA. To deny this is just silly lol. Dungeons today are, as I've said, copy/pastes from the world. MOTS for example. That entire dungeon is from a corner in Ardenweald. Dungeons used to be entirely original places. Yes, they are made of reused assets, but nothing quite like DOS where it's blatant cutting room floor material.

I don't think it is as bad as you put it tho. You can go and visit the zones. I loved to visit Nighthold from outside. It actually has some immersion while dungeons from early wow just was an empty spot from the map and you couldn't access it otherwise. There are pros and cons, but I would love to visit non instanced versions of old dungeons, especially WotLK/TBC.
Also Whole ZG raid was just cut out of the map even tho it was there. Part of Shadowmoon Valley was missing because BT was there, whole Ulduar raid and ICC is not there despite being massive in the instance. They should have actually had it in the world. Even if it was filled with elites. Silithus had a part missing. Karazhan is entirely missing and absolutely non proportional same as Naxx or ICC, imagine being able to see this massive fortress flying above you which is Naxx. What we had was like a damn cloakroom. Cata raid entrances are absolute joke.

[Relapses]

Only read the first line. You're not interested in discussing, as you keep derailing and inserting words you don't understand to try and insult me. Why do you continue to harass me without providing anything to the discussion?

I'm sure you think you're being clever but you really just look ridiculous. Take it easy out there in life my guy.

[Gorsameth]

Just get rid off M+. Blizzard obviously added M+ for eSports/streaming and by now it's safe to say that it's nowhere as successful/watched as hoped for. Like, M+ is only successful in that normal players, well... play it, but nobody (relatively speaking duh) cares about the competitive side of it or the people that participate.

All the pvp tournaments and community-driven raiding world first race streams are way more popular than anything M+ related ever was or ever will be. The gap in popularity and viewership between these is too enormous to consider the MDI the success blizz had hoped for.

Really? You don't think that perhaps M+ was added to give challenging dungeon content and goals to work towards for small groups of players that don't have the numbers (or interest) in bigger Raid content? And that all this came from the overall very positive response to Challenge Mode dungeons from MoP and WoD?

Why was it 'obviously' made for esports?

[RobertMugabe]

Really? You don't think that perhaps M+ was added to give challenging dungeon content and goals to work towards for small groups of players that don't have the numbers (or interest) in bigger Raid content? And that all this came from the overall very positive response to Challenge Mode dungeons from MoP and WoD?

Why was it 'obviously' made for esports?

No, M+ was specifically made for eSports and this was also the main reason behind the massive class pruning and redesigns back in Legion (so that players watching can easier figure out what the player's were doing). Blizzard had already added mythic dungeons (one extra harder difficulty with no LFD) at the end of WoD and those were well received and they wanted to continue this system with mythic and challenge modes in Legion. I might have to look it up again, but I remember it back from Blizzcon (which followed after the legion announcement at Gamescom) that they did want to continue this system and only later on, when beta was out were these 2 systems merged.

I also remember it very well that challenge modes in fact were not popular at all in WoD and barely got traction in MoP (easily the most underwhelming new feature added in this xpac). I have no doubts that they merged challenge modes with mythic to "bring out" the competitive potential of dungeons. Mythic dungeons in WoD already worked fine, even as a raid geared player, they were pretty difficult initially (and a lot of fun) and it already worked well as an alternative to raiding without the speedrunning/competitive aspect. The karazhan megadungeon was an example of how to do it and the dungeons back in cata, tbc and vanilla (and to a lesser extent wrath too with the 3.3 dungeons) worked very well too in this regard.

I find it quite surprising that some people are denying this nowadays, when back when Legion came out (and some time until nighthold came out), the eSports potential was the main thing most people were talking about in regards to M+ (incl. here on MMOC). Either way, M+ didn't work out well and the expected rise of WoW PVE eSports didn't happen (or it doesn't look like it will) besides maybe RWF. I am not necessarily saying M+ is bad or it isn't successful in other ways, it's just silly to say that eSports weren't the main reason why M+ was made and designed how it is today.

[rhorle]

Don't think you know what head canon means

Are you going to give me a definition so you can argue semantics or are you using your expert knowledge gained in high school this time as well? It means stuff that only exists in your head rather then the story/reality. And it is exactly how you are choosing to remember the old dungeons that were reusing art from those expansions. Very few were unique for the same reason as now. To cut corners. I never denied it doesn't happen which just further shows you only care about your perception of things rather then reality.

Dungeons were never entirely original places since they reused assets. Again I reference Shattered halls which used the same stuff we saw through out hellfire and those themes used elsewhere.

[arandomuser]

Why do they think people care about this shit?

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No. It's more so Players: "Stop wasting resources on this trash and get back to making games"

Blizz: *creates yet another failed eSports event*

The same fucking players: *crickets*

but the esports people are different than the developers...

[Stardrift]

I don't think it is as bad as you put it tho. You can go and visit the zones. I loved to visit Nighthold from outside. It actually has some immersion while dungeons from early wow just was an empty spot from the map and you couldn't access it otherwise. There are pros and cons, but I would love to visit non instanced versions of old dungeons, especially WotLK/TBC.
Also Whole ZG raid was just cut out of the map even tho it was there. Part of Shadowmoon Valley was missing because BT was there, whole Ulduar raid and ICC is not there despite being massive in the instance. They should have actually had it in the world. Even if it was filled with elites. Silithus had a part missing. Karazhan is entirely missing and absolutely non proportional same as Naxx or ICC, imagine being able to see this massive fortress flying above you which is Naxx. What we had was like a damn cloakroom. Cata raid entrances are absolute joke.

I do agree, but with things like MOTS, or most SL dungeons, it's just executed very poorly. Mechagon for example was just bad. I walked in, walked out after seeing that half the dungeon was just the Mechagon island packed full of trash mobs.

Nighthold was excellent, as most of it was completely new stuff. The dungeons I wasn't much a fan of for reasons stated above. For cases like Black Temple, ICC and Ulduar, the reasoning would be for tech reasons, but I do get your point and it's still valid.

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Are you going to give me a definition so you can argue semantics or are you using your expert knowledge gained in high school this time as well? It means stuff that only exists in your head rather then the story/reality. And it is exactly how you are choosing to remember the old dungeons that were reusing art from those expansions. Very few were unique for the same reason as now. To cut corners. I never denied it doesn't happen which just further shows you only care about your perception of things rather then reality.

Dungeons were never entirely original places since they reused assets. Again I reference Shattered halls which used the same stuff we saw through out hellfire and those themes used elsewhere.

TL;DR. Too much strawmanning

[rhorle]

TL;DR. Too much strawmanning

Nothing I said fits a strawman. But instead of admitting you are wrong you double down on being foolish. Old dungeons reused art assets all the time. You can continue to live in a fantasy but don't expect others to indulge you. Besides you would have to read it in order to make the distinction that it was a strawman. So even your dismissal falls flat.

[Stardrift]

Nothing I said fits a (this is where I stopped)

Moved on to gaslighting I see

[rhorle]

Moved on to gaslighting I see

Why do you keep responding if you admit to not reading anything that actually disproves your claims? But hey keep inventing reasons why the facts aren't actually real just so you can remain correct if only in your head canon. It also isn't gaslighting to point out a false claim. For someone that used definitions to try and win an argument you continually misuses them when ever you want to.

[Stardrift]

Why (I stopped here)

*Zavala voice* Why, indeed.