Why skilled player got so mad about casual getting better loot?

[arkanon]

Sure, I could do a little bit of research on the net, ask a few raider friends and intelligently answer your question, but I choose not to. And if I did - wouldn't that be an indication of "skill" by your standards, meanwhile I haven't stepped into a current non-lfr raid since Cata.

This is all you needed to say really - You don't like what you are saying, so choose ignorance over education.

No, talking to some friends and absorbing their knowledge is not what i said skill was, it was VERY clearly stated that taking that knowledge and putting it into practice at the highest possible level, THAT is skill.

To make a claim like PvE being "Void of skill", and then openly admit you haven't done anything beyond LFR in a decade shows again that you revel in ignorance, and openly admit you prefer it this way. And look, if you want to be that way, thats absolutely fine, but it does mean you cannot speak with any authority regarding pve loot, raiding or the skill required, or any of the topics being discussed here.

[ippollite]

First off, ill say this outright from the start - you are wrong. Firstly, you absolutely do use the environment to your advantage - LoS was a pve skill before it was a PvP one. As for literally everything else you say - its all one big contradiction. If what you were saying is true, every single player would EASILY be clearing mythic raids. Ill ask you a question - what do you believe the difference between a mythic raider dropping 99 parses vs someone in LFR dropping greys? They have access to all the same information, they are using very similar hardware, can achieve the same keybinds and are running on the same servers etc. So whats the difference?

If we all have the same knowledge, and it can and is being shared, then the only differentiating factor is skill (assuming all other variables are the same, eg comparing like for like) The difference between knowledge and skill is that skill is the application of that knowledge. Skills refer to the ability to apply knowledge to specific situations. Skills are developed through practice, through a combination of sensory input and output. Now that we all understand what skill is, and we all agree that everyone has access to the same knowledge, which can and is freely shared publicly and globally, how can you still claim that player skill is not the main factor?

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Jeez man, I wouldn't call casuals' desire to obtain gear far exceeding their skill to be "bad, rotten part of human nature".

Now that the conversation has shifted and those who once claimed they wanted 226 loot from WQ and solo content are NOW saying they just want progression, i have a solution:

You want progression that matters to you - the solo player, so here it is:

Gear is capped as it currently is, however you are able to obtain "set bonuses". They can be behind rep (something people have claimed they miss), rare drops, or purchased with currency. They are attached to open slots on your covenant set, and provide some strong bonuses that are massively advantageous in the gameplay they complete. Some examples might include:

Faster hearth
Flight whistle
Higher rewards (currencies)
Faster mounted speed
Faster unmounted speed
Reduced CD on Covenant abilities

They could also boost some core stats like haste/crit etc.

This is disabled in all group content, since the majority of people are saying they flat-out don't want to do group content, so it would be of absolutely no benefit to them. This will allow them to work towards progressing their character, in a slow but meaningful way, making them much stronger in their chosen field. It will also give no real incentive to raiders to obtain it, unless they WANT to, which would be totally fine - i mean who cares what other people have, right?

Anyone got any other ideas for set bonuses? And if anyone who has been advocating for a progression system for solo players doesn't like the system, let me know why - i would love to know.

I think youre getting a bit caught up in the idea that 'gear is the cause of all the issues. If only there was an equitable distribution of gear all issues would be resolved.'
Im not saying this to be obtuse, im saying it because gear is a band aid on the deeper issues.

Let me very briefly explain: What would i do in game right now if my character was sent a full 210 or 220 set in the mail? Would i suddenly feel an urge to start farming mythic dungeons or heroic raids? No. Not really. I'd play the game exactly the same way ive been playing it since about 2012. Assuming i cancelled my sub in January, would that 210 or even 220 be enough to bring me back to the game and resub (even if it was a one time offer due to expire in one week), no. Not at all. Why? Because there's nothing fun to do in the world game right now (and in the foreseeable future) to engage with. So you can tinker with all the heartstone cooldowns you like to give me a 'world quest set', but if its THESE world quests, in THIS CURRENT iteration of the game? No. Heck, you could give me a 7 piece set bonus world ending once a week cooldown where i can destroy all my world quests and auto complete every quest available on the map. It wouldnt make me sub again. Because its boring. The world game is boring.

And its not my fault its boring. I havent suddenly changed my tastes or interests. I happily held my sub throughout BfA (though i did start it at 8.1), and i played most of legion (up to the end of 8.2). Even WOD!!! even wod i held my sub. And i hated wod. So, before you tear your hair out in pure frustration screaming "THEN WTF DO YOU ACTUALLY WANT!!!!???!" Let me tell you what made each of those expansions fun for me.

Panda: LFR introduction, legendary cloak quest, Timeless Isles, and Isle of Thunder.
Wod: Legendary Ring quest, pathfinder, Tanaan.
Legion: Lego easter egg hunt, emissary quests, class halls, suramar, oh and pathfinder obviously.
BfA: Allied races, pathfinder, machagon, war campaign, horde loa stuff.
SL: Covenants (so far)... im expecting more in 9.2. Heck, i may really enjoy Korthia.

If you pick it all apart you'll see one or two common features: New content dumps (and im not holding this currently against shadowlands), and lots of big rep grinds over the course of the patch/expansion rewarding cool things. Allied races were an AWESOME component which really kept the expansion fun for me. Theyre probably one of my favorite features (alongside mechagon which was bonkers fun).

Thats literally all i want. A big dumb meta grind with a nice storyline (a la the panda/wod legos or the war campaigns) that gives me something awesome at the end of it. Thats it. If the anima system was simply more rewarding (and yes, i will take your +anima gain at 250% set bonus), id be happy enough playing the game right now. Its not that its a bad expansion. Its just badly paced.

Oh, and if you want something that would ABSOLUTELY fit the bill they could add to the game right now (dont say player housing dont say player housing dont say playerhousing...)

Give me a REP grind (a la allied races) for new hairstyles and character creation customisation. You know, that thing players had a fit about when blizzard said 'actually nah, we're not really gonna bother with that right now'. Why not turn it into a gameplay feature? Why not, instead of giving it to everyone on character design, you earn the reward in game, you get more customisation options. Players get customisation options, i have something fun to work toward, and blizzard gets my sub. Cant say fairer than that! And not a single piece of gear or tier set was needed to make it 'fun' and 'engaging'.

[Luxeley]

This is all you needed to say really - You don't like what you are saying, so choose ignorance over education.

No, talking to some friends and absorbing their knowledge is not what i said skill was, it was VERY clearly stated that taking that knowledge and putting it into practice at the highest possible level, THAT is skill.

To make a claim like PvE being "Void of skill", and then openly admit you haven't done anything beyond LFR in a decade shows again that you revel in ignorance, and openly admit you prefer it this way. And look, if you want to be that way, thats absolutely fine, but it does mean you cannot speak with any authority regarding pve loot, raiding or the skill required, or any of the topics being discussed here.

You explicitly said Skill=Knowledge, explicitly. And, you tell me I am ignorant? I don't like Pve. I'm shocked you didn't throw the cliche argument at me - "you don't raid because you suck at it." I prefer to beat other players rather than a program where there is ZERO spontaneity and/or improvision. Raids are nothing more than learning "dance moves" and I find dancing in an RPG BORING. That's opinion, not fact. There is a Pvp side to the game. I choose not to engage in pve. It doesn't mean I can't speak about it or "anything on here." You obviously have a very very high opinion of yourself doing something an intelligent monkey can do.

[arkanon]

I think youre getting a bit caught up in the idea that 'gear is the cause of all the issues. If only there was an equitable distribution of gear all issues would be resolved.'
Im not saying this to be obtuse, im saying it because gear is a band aid on the deeper issues.

Let me very briefly explain: What would i do in game right now if my character was sent a full 210 or 220 set in the mail? Would i suddenly feel an urge to start farming mythic dungeons or heroic raids? No. Not really. I'd play the game exactly the same way ive been playing it since about 2012. Assuming i cancelled my sub in January, would that 210 or even 220 be enough to bring me back to the game and resub (even if it was a one time offer due to expire in one week), no. Not at all. Why? Because there's nothing fun to do in the world game right now (and in the foreseeable future) to engage with. So you can tinker with all the heartstone cooldowns you like to give me a 'world quest set', but if its THESE world quests, in THIS CURRENT iteration of the game? No. Heck, you could give me a 7 piece set bonus world ending once a week cooldown where i can destroy all my world quests and auto complete every quest available on the map. It wouldnt make me sub again. Because its boring. The world game is boring.

And its not my fault its boring. I havent suddenly changed my tastes or interests. I happily held my sub throughout BfA (though i did start it at 8.1), and i played most of legion (up to the end of 8.2). Even WOD!!! even wod i held my sub. And i hated wod. So, before you tear your hair out in pure frustration screaming "THEN WTF DO YOU ACTUALLY WANT!!!!???!" Let me tell you what made each of those expansions fun for me.

Panda: LFR introduction, legendary cloak quest, Timeless Isles, and Isle of Thunder.
Wod: Legendary Ring quest, pathfinder, Tanaan.
Legion: Lego easter egg hunt, emissary quests, class halls, suramar, oh and pathfinder obviously.
BfA: Allied races, pathfinder, machagon, war campaign, horde loa stuff.
SL: Covenants (so far)... im expecting more in 9.2. Heck, i may really enjoy Korthia.

If you pick it all apart you'll see one or two common features: New content dumps (and im not holding this currently against shadowlands), and lots of big rep grinds over the course of the patch/expansion rewarding cool things. Allied races were an AWESOME component which really kept the expansion fun for me. Theyre probably one of my favorite features (alongside mechagon which was bonkers fun).

Thats literally all i want. A big dumb meta grind with a nice storyline (a la the panda/wod legos or the war campaigns) that gives me something awesome at the end of it. Thats it. If the anima system was simply more rewarding (and yes, i will take your +anima gain at 250% set bonus), id be happy enough playing the game right now. Its not that its a bad expansion. Its just badly paced.

Oh, and if you want something that would ABSOLUTELY fit the bill they could add to the game right now (dont say player housing dont say player housing dont say playerhousing...)

Give me a REP grind (a la allied races) for new hairstyles and character creation customisation. You know, that thing players had a fit about when blizzard said 'actually nah, we're not really gonna bother with that right now'. Why not turn it into a gameplay feature? Why not, instead of giving it to everyone on character design, you earn the reward in game, you get more customisation options. Players get customisation options, i have something fun to work toward, and blizzard gets my sub. Cant say fairer than that! And not a single piece of gear or tier set was needed to make it 'fun' and 'engaging'.

So why are you comparing END OF EXPANSION features with the first tier? "Look at all these things i had to do!" no, you didnt, not in the first "season" or tier - you flatout did NOT have those things to do.

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You explicitly said Skill=Knowledge, explicitly. And, you tell me I am ignorant? I don't like Pve. I'm shocked you didn't throw the cliche argument at me - "you don't raid because you suck at it." I prefer to beat other players rather than a program where there is ZERO spontaneity and/or improvision. Raids are nothing more than learning "dance moves" and I find dancing in an RPG BORING. That's opinion, not fact. There is a Pvp side to the game. I choose not to engage in pve. It doesn't mean I can't speak about it or "anything on here." You obviously have a very very high opinion of yourself doing something an intelligent monkey can do.

This is what i said, since you seem VERY confused about it:

The difference between knowledge and skill is that skill is the application of that knowledge. Skills refer to the ability to apply knowledge to specific situations. Skills are developed through practice, through a combination of sensory input and output. Now that we all understand what skill is, and we all agree that everyone has access to the same knowledge, which can and is freely shared publicly and globally, how can you still claim that player skill is not the main factor?

Not only did I NOT say they are the same thing, i even outlined their differences, and even how they relate to each other. The rest of your "argument" is you openly creating strawman arguments and then dismantling them - you even mention that i did NOT say these things, so why the hell bring them up?

[ippollite]

So why are you comparing END OF EXPANSION features with the first tier? "Look at all these things i had to do!" no, you didnt, not in the first "season" or tier - you flatout did NOT have those things to do.

Half of those were mid/late expansion, the other half werent. I thought i made this clear. I even said "New content dumps (and im not holding this currently against shadowlands), and lots of big rep grinds over the course of the patch/expansion rewarding cool things".

[Luxeley]

So why are you comparing END OF EXPANSION features with the first tier? "Look at all these things i had to do!" no, you didnt, not in the first "season" or tier - you flatout did NOT have those things to do.

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This is what i said, since you seem VERY confused about it:



Not only did I NOT say they are the same thing, i even outlined their differences, and even how they relate to each other. The rest of your "argument" is you openly creating strawman arguments and then dismantling them - you even mention that i did NOT say these things, so why the hell bring them up?

Not at all what you said in your initial interaction. Its a lot of fun making things up, isn't it?

[VinceVega]

OK, fine, but what if there's no given avenue for your preferred way of playing? Torghast ended up not being rewarding for the solo player as much as 5 masking a vision did. From what I can gather, challenging solo content doesn't exist, and it once did. So maybe a solo player could get 213 ilvl - IF they can complete a solo challenge that's as hard as current Heroic raiding or middle tier PVP, think Mage Tower before massive outgearing made it too easy, but not RIGHT immediately at release. 213 allows a closer playing field, but still keeps Mythic and top tier PVP rewards more powerful.

This path could open up to giving Mythic -1 tier (13 ilvl below) rewards when the current tier/season's Hall of Fame has been fully filled, so that it doesn't end up being just another thing that hardcore raiders need to do to gear up for Mythic and be a part of WF races.

Solo Gameplay cannot be made hard if actuall power rewards are tied to it. The players who would mainly gear through it would riot... and they did that allready.

Torghast WAS challenging. The people had difficultie clearing it in week one without failing so Blizz had to nerf it into the ground so now it is just a boring chore where you run through killing everything with a 170 char. Never in the danger of dying.

The players who like soloplaying (in an MMO for whatever reason) nearly always do not like actual challenges in the game.

I don't think obtainable sologear in an MMO should ever be on par with gear from group content.
Add one or two craftable stuff like wotlk had. I am fine with that. We have that now with legendaries.
But getting people to play even less with others is not a good way to go.

Blizz should just let people host their own solo world on their home PC with everything nerfed to the ground so people who really want to play the game as a single player can do that. Sounds harsh maybe. But read through this thread. Many people demand a gearing way for mythic gear for faceroll content. No challenge. Just gear. How can that be good for the gameplay experience?
If they would go with your example where the heroic gear only unlocks when hall of fame is full the same people would complain why they have to wait. But if you would not do that you completly fuck over EVERY group content in the game except mythic raiding/mythic+15/elite PvP.
This would not even really hurt the top end. It will hurt the middle. Becuase their incentive to raid normal for example would be completly destroyed if i can get way better gear with way easier content alone.

No one does raids or dungeons again if there is NOTHING in it. In progress you would have to clear every boss again and again without any reward for it. Or you extend the lockout every week to the top boss. When you are done you quit the game until the next content drop happens because the incentive to repeat content is gone.

[arkanon]

Not at all what you said in your initial interaction. Its a lot of fun making things up, isn't it?

I literally quoted myself.......

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Half of those were mid/late expansion, the other half werent. I thought i made this clear. I even said "New content dumps (and im not holding this currently against shadowlands), and lots of big rep grinds over the course of the patch/expansion rewarding cool things".

Yes, and those things that DID exist early expansion still do, or have been replaced with something comparable. So what are you trying to say?

[munkeyinorbit]

Not at all what you said in your initial interaction. Its a lot of fun making things up, isn't it?

*Jazz music stops playing*
WUT?

He linked you an actual quote of what he said and you are going to try to fight it? Are you seriously going to sit there and triple down? This is amazing.

[Luxeley]

*Jazz music stops playing*
WUT?

He linked you an actual quote of what he said and you are going to try to fight it? Are you seriously going to sit there and triple down? This is amazing.

Quadruple down. It is definitely not what was to me

[ippollite]

I literally quoted myself.......

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Yes, and those things that DID exist early expansion still do, or have been replaced with something comparable. So what are you trying to say?

This is a lot of argument tennis you seem to be playing here.

So lets name those comparable systems? Wheres my comparable allied race grind that rewarded me a new account wide feature i could use independent of my current character? Wheres my legendary rng hunt? Where are all my rng features that made the world dynamic and engaging instead of a flat, boring and predictable frictionless space? I mean, i know that every calling box will drop 1 conduit and 2 gold. In all the callings i completed i got one item (a 170 mace). I also know that every world mob drops some gold, a low level crafting mat, and now and again a green item around 127. I know that i'll be doing three of around 15 or so world quests in each zone on rotation. Not just some of this is predictable. ALL of it is predictable. At least in Bfa there was RNG... so wheres my rng? Wheres my comparable systems? Wheres my pathfinder rep grind? Wheres my slowly ticking over meta grind unlocking my storyline and gear upgrades alongside rep and cosmetics using a non weekly restricted currency like GOLD to buy? Where are these comparable systems? How comparable are they? I mean, you brought it up.

[Depakote]

you know a thread is going to be a good time when so many people have gotten banned for replying in it.

[nvaelz]

you know a thread is going to be a good time when so many people have gotten banned for replying in it.

They should ban me for saying that boosting service guilds should burn in hell. I miss the chinese more than anything atleast they had some charm working outside blizzards goblin web, I'll say this again, blizzard are greedy snakes that want low subscription, high sales, they don't want people to feel warm and welcome in the game, they don't want that, they'd rather people buy boosts from NOVA boosts and pretend to be qualified, why not just make everyone qualified and tie GOOD LOOKING COSMETIC REWARDS to higher tier raiding, why make pvp so level based, maybe I don't wanna play with someone that is neither to hot or cold for me, maybe that will take too long for me to find a person that is equally sensible to my own personality, it's just ridiculous how silly this game is, it's soooo gated that it hurts my feelings man, I don't wanna be like you guys that arent 500+ honor level and have a life, I want my ability to shine, and SADLY it can only shine if I go into some blood pact with some nasty gold boosting guild or if I literally exclude all my friends and never play with them again, or maybe I'll stream boosting some guys and I'll complain that they broke my cc and killed me all the time, maybe I can have solo queue and actually fun solo content and maybe they can make GROUP content more warm and welcoming as the STANDARD culture, and not some tryhard RIO measuring contest to see who is the greatest iceberg of them all.

[arkanon]

Quadruple down. It is definitely not what was to me

No you don't understand, I literally quoted myself - you can click on the link and it will take you to the original post, and you can confirm it is entirely unedited, other than bolding the parts I thought were most important.

[Depakote]

They should ban me for saying that boosting service guilds should burn in hell. I miss the chinese more than anything atleast they had some charm working outside blizzards goblin web, I'll say this again, blizzard are greedy snakes that want low subscription, high sales, they don't want people to feel warm and welcome in the game, they don't want that, they'd rather people buy boosts from NOVA boosts and pretend to be qualified, why not just make everyone qualified and tie GOOD LOOKING COSMETIC REWARDS to higher tier raiding, why make pvp so level based, maybe I don't wanna play with someone that is neither to hot or cold for me, maybe that will take too long for me to find a person that is equally sensible to my own personality, it's just ridiculous how silly this game is, it's soooo gated that it hurts my feelings man, I don't wanna be like you guys that arent 500+ honor level and have a life, I want my ability to shine, and SADLY it can only shine if I go into some blood pact with some nasty gold boosting guild or if I literally exclude all my friends and never play with them again, or maybe I'll stream boosting some guys and I'll complain that they broke my cc and killed me all the time, maybe I can have solo queue and actually fun solo content and maybe they can make GROUP content more warm and welcoming as the STANDARD culture, and not some tryhard RIO measuring contest to see who is the greatest iceberg of them all.

I'm sorry but i can't read a wall of text like that. I'm sure you have things that are worthy of reading though so if you could maybe to a summary of all your complaints of the game that'd be great. That being said the game has been bad for awhile now but blizzard just doesn't seem to care. I think i'm just going to let my sub run out and be done with it. They won't listen to player feedback because they're too arrogant so i'll just spend my money with a company that cares about it's player base.

[nvaelz]

Maybe you should put a ruler between the lines bro.

[Depakote]

Maybe you should put a ruler between the lines bro.

I have a traumatic brain injury which prevents my eyes from working together. When i try to read huge paragraph like yours the lines just blend together and basically become unreadable. Sorry I can't fix my brain.

[Luxeley]

No you don't understand, I literally quoted myself - you can click on the link and it will take you to the original post, and you can confirm it is entirely unedited, other than bolding the parts I thought were most important.

I understand perfectly. I am referring to what you initially said, not what you provided greater clarity for much later in the discussion. And by the way, yes the post is edited. Seriously why should I give you the benefit of the doubt about your intentions and integrity when you don't extend the same courtesy and tell me I have no right posting on this forum?

[nvaelz]

Take a screenshot and separate the lines, is there anything more I should teach you or did your brain injury remove your creativity?

Or, you could copy paste the text into a document, and then you space the lines, that would probably be faster. Godspeed my braindamaged friend.

[arkanon]

I understand perfectly. I am referring to what you initially said, not what you provided greater clarity for much later in the discussion. And by the way, yes the post is edited. Seriously why should I give you the benefit of the doubt about your intentions and integrity when you don't extend the same courtesy and tell me I have no right posting on this forum?

First outright Lie - The POST was edited, but not the quoted part - this is still there for anyone to see, and has been quoted multiple times - creating a snapshot - proving that no, i did not edit the quote. Lie #1.

I never once said or implied you "have no right" to post on this forum - I said that as somsone who openly admits to doing no raids above LFR difficulty in over a decade, you do not have any authority to discuss its difficulty, and certainly no authority to make an absolutely absurd claim such as "mythic raids are void of difficulty". This is Lie #2 - claiming i said you have "no right" to post on this forum.

started on post #1234 when you said this:

Skill really isn't much of a factor despite popular belief. It basically comes down to class knowledge, content knowledge, and experience. The perception of this is often distorted because the combination of the aforementioned definition of Xp and gear trumps all.

Whats important here, VERY important, is "experience" - this "experience" is taking the knowledge, and applying it in a "real world" setting - in this context, a raid. I responded asking what exactly you think skill is, if not taking knowledge and applying it?

What really distorts perception is a complete and utter lack of understanding of what "skill" is, because you literally define it yourself. Your comment can be reworded as "its not skill, its SKILL". What do you think skill is exactly?

Post # 1255, our next interaction, is what i quoted, unedited, and in the same form it was when you replied. Someone quoted me in post #1256 (literally the next post), can you see anything in what i just linked you that has been edited? You claim this was "much later in our conversation", and yet it was literally the next time i replied to you....Lie #3.

I cannot understand why you would so freely lie about things anyone can see for themselves, with just a click of their mouse.