Why skilled player got so mad about casual getting better loot?

[Luxeley]

First outright Lie - The POST was edited, but not the quoted part - this is still there for anyone to see, and has been quoted multiple times - creating a snapshot - proving that no, i did not edit the quote. Lie #1.

I never once said or implied you "have no right" to post on this forum - I said that as somsone who openly admits to doing no raids above LFR difficulty in over a decade, you do not have any authority to discuss its difficulty, and certainly no authority to make an absolutely absurd claim such as "mythic raids are void of difficulty". This is Lie #2 - claiming i said you have "no right" to post on this forum.

started on post #1234 when you said this:



Whats important here, VERY important, is "experience" - this "experience" is taking the knowledge, and applying it in a "real world" setting - in this context, a raid. I responded asking what exactly you think skill is, if not taking knowledge and applying it?



Post # 1255, our next interaction, is what i quoted, unedited, and in the same form it was when you replied. Someone quoted me in post #1256 (literally the next post), can you see anything in what i just linked you that has been edited? You claim this was "much later in our conversation", and yet it was literally the next time i replied to you....Lie #3.

I cannot understand why you would so freely lie about things anyone can see for themselves, with just a click of their mouse.

You're being completely disingenuous, I am done with this discussion. I guess that's just your thing, but I am no longer responding. You're wasting my time now. Let me quote you "And look, if you want to be that way, that's absolutely fine, but it does mean you cannot speak with any authority regarding pve loot, raiding or the skill required, or any of the topics being discussed here." I take "any topics being discussed here" as in MMO Champion. That's my interpretation, not sure what your intent was nor do I care cause you definitely don't extend the same courtesy to others. And yes, I can speak with authority about raiding and such because it certainly is possible to possess the knowledge of raids and such and not able to effectively apply it in-game.

[munkeyinorbit]

You're being completely disingenuous, I am done with this discussion. I guess that's just your thing, but I am no longer responding. You're wasting my time now.

It is never a waste of time to educate people in the facts. Instead of throwing a tantrum and taking your ball and going home how about you admit to the point and get back to defending your point or try to reason your way if thinking. This is suppose to be about why skilled players get mad about the "bads" getting gear. As someone who use to be "good", in my experience, this is not my experience. I, and my guild loved handing out high end gear to pugs on our alt nights. It strengthened the community and made it easier to gear our 3rd and fourth alts. If a good player thinks about the lesser players, it's only as a tool. The better the tool is, the easier they are to use.

[arkanon]

it certainly is possible to possess the knowledge of raids and such and not able to effectively apply it in-game.

Yes, because those players lack the skill. It took a while, but you did get there in the end, so full credit to you.

[munkeyinorbit]

Yes, because those players lack the skill. It took a while, but you did get there in the end, so full credit to you.

*High five*

As someone who has recent experience at the top, do you care about casuals getting gear? I essentially agree with the mantra "gear needs to reflect your skill" but I've also found it useful for the "less dedicated" to get gear too. I think having a good base of geared players helps the community as a whole, especially for the pug scene.

[Luxeley]

It is never a waste of time to educate people in the facts. Instead of throwing a tantrum and taking your ball and going home how about you admit to the point and get back to defending your point or try to reason your way if thinking. This is suppose to be about why skilled players get mad about the "bads" getting gear. As someone who use to be "good", in my experience, this is not my experience. I, and my guild loved handing out high end gear to pugs on our alt nights. It strengthened the community and made it easier to gear our 3rd and fourth alts. If a good player thinks about the lesser players, it's only as a tool. The better the tool is, the easier they are to use.

I dont know how to complete reply in specific quotes when multple posts are invovled and 100% didn't intend that comment for you.

[darklogrus]

*High five*

As someone who has recent experience at the top, do you care about casuals getting gear? I essentially agree with the mantra "gear needs to reflect your skill" but I've also found it useful for the "less dedicated" to get gear too. I think having a good base of geared players helps the community as a whole, especially for the pug scene.

I might have missed it but what do you think is a reasonable ilvl for the non instance casuals to be sitting at in 9.0?

[arkanon]

*High five*

As someone who has recent experience at the top, do you care about casuals getting gear? I essentially agree with the mantra "gear needs to reflect your skill" but I've also found it useful for the "less dedicated" to get gear too. I think having a good base of geared players helps the community as a whole, especially for the pug scene.

Absolutely! I think this post sums up my thoughts on the matter quite well:

Now that the conversation has shifted and those who once claimed they wanted 226 loot from WQ and solo content are NOW saying they just want progression, i have a solution:

You want progression that matters to you - the solo player, so here it is:

Gear is capped as it currently is, however you are able to obtain "set bonuses". They can be behind rep (something people have claimed they miss), rare drops, or purchased with currency. They are attached to open slots on your covenant set, and provide some strong bonuses that are massively advantageous in the gameplay they complete. Some examples might include:

Faster hearth
Flight whistle
Higher rewards (currencies)
Faster mounted speed
Faster unmounted speed
Reduced CD on Covenant abilities

They could also boost some core stats like haste/crit etc.

This is disabled in all group content, since the majority of people are saying they flat-out don't want to do group content, so it would be of absolutely no benefit to them. This will allow them to work towards progressing their character, in a slow but meaningful way, making them much stronger in their chosen field. It will also give no real incentive to raiders to obtain it, unless they WANT to, which would be totally fine - i mean who cares what other people have, right?

Anyone got any other ideas for set bonuses? And if anyone who has been advocating for a progression system for solo players doesn't like the system, let me know why - i would love to know.

And I agree - having individuals able to gear themselves to the entry requirements for heroic raiding without stepping foot in instanced content is the best it has ever been this early in an expansion, and I think thats fine. I also agree that it is healthy for the pug community, as previously these individuals were substantially less geared this early in an expansion, and stepping into raids was a very daunting step indeed - and many groups simply would not, and in same cases could not bring a player like that.

EDIT: High Five (didnt wanna leave you hanging)

[EntertainmentNihilist]

Jeez man, I wouldn't call casuals' desire to obtain gear far exceeding their skill to be "bad, rotten part of human nature".

What I'm refering to is the desire for "hardcore" players to feel like they have something other people don't have.

[arkanon]

What I'm refering to is the desire for "hardcore" players to feel like they have something other people don't have.

I mean, they feel like that because......they do have something that others dont have - the gear, which reflects them accomplishing something that others have not.

[Echocho]

*High five*

As someone who has recent experience at the top, do you care about casuals getting gear? I essentially agree with the mantra "gear needs to reflect your skill" but I've also found it useful for the "less dedicated" to get gear too. I think having a good base of geared players helps the community as a whole, especially for the pug scene.

Everyone deserves to have a meaningful gear progression in an RPG. If it's over too fast and/or puts you at to big of a disadvantage compared to others there's something wrong with either the gearing system or the matchmaking.

If casuals for some reason only get a two week progression that caps out at 200 iLvl they shouldn't be matched in random battlegrounds with mythic raiders who stomp the living shit out of them. Either increase the rewards so that they stand a chance or fix the matchmaking.

[Tadkins]

Everyone deserves to have a meaningful gear progression in an RPG. If it's over too fast and/or puts you at to big of a disadvantage compared to others there's something wrong with either the gearing system or the matchmaking.

If casuals for some reason only get a two week progression that caps out at 200 iLvl they shouldn't be matched in random battlegrounds with mythic raiders who stomp the living shit out of them. Either increase the rewards so that they stand a chance or fix the matchmaking.

For sure. What's the point of playing if we know that 200 is the highest we'll ever go, the only thing we can hope for is getting stomped over and over again, and there's not even any point to suffering through the beatdowns because that's not going to even be rewarding in the end?

Why would I give Blizzard my money knowing that's all I have to look forward to, seriously?

[arkanon]

For sure. What's the point of playing if we know that 200 is the highest we'll ever go, the only thing we can hope for is getting stomped over and over again, and there's not even any point to suffering through the beatdowns because that's not going to even be rewarding in the end?

Why would I give Blizzard my money knowing that's all I have to look forward to, seriously?

What's the point in playing if I know the best gear I can get is 226? Just imagine being told by Blizzard "there is absolutely no better gear for you, no matter how well you play, you cannot get any more gear".

Why would I give Blizzard my money knowing that?

[Kralljin]

Everyone deserves to have a meaningful gear progression in an RPG. If it's over too fast and/or puts you at to big of a disadvantage compared to others there's something wrong with either the gearing system or the matchmaking.

Originally, there were ways to progress your character as "solo" (or rather, not organized player), but those usually took a lot of time.

Case in point: TBC craftable items, Reputation rewards or PvP.
All of them were doable without engaging in any form of organized raiding (leaving some craftable items aside) but were a huge timesink for the average player.
In TBC, you could even just do 10 Arena games for some points in the week and buy an item a few weeks later.

But i ask myself whether the more casual audience is willing to engage in a rather long grind with a big payoff or they just go "nah, takes too long, can't be arsed".

This is the massive crux, unless you go down the rabbit hole of infinite power progression, you can't stretch that power progression for very long when certain steps don't require a lot of time to complete it.

1. No Infinite Power
2. Each playsession has some form of payoff / upgrade (=quick rewards)
3. Progression is supposed to last for multiple months

Choose two, you can't have all three.

[Tadkins]

Originally, there were ways to progress your character as "solo" (or rather, not organized player), but those usually took a lot of time.

Case in point: TBC craftable items, Reputation rewards or PvP.
All of them were doable without engaging in any form of organized raiding (leaving some craftable items aside) but were a huge timesink for the average player.
In TBC, you could even just do 10 Arena games for some points in the week and buy an item a few weeks later.

But i ask myself whether the more casual audience is willing to engage in a rather long grind with a big payoff or they just go "nah, takes too long, can't be arsed".

This is the massive crux, unless you go down the rabbit hole of infinite power progression, you can't stretch that power progression for very long when certain steps don't require a lot of time to complete it.

1. No Infinite Power
2. Each playsession has some form of payoff / upgrade (=quick rewards)
3. Progression is supposed to last for multiple months

Choose two, you can't have all three.

I'd be happy if we could just get the slow trickle of decent conquest gear through random battlegrounds.

Rated players would get it faster, and they'd have a shot at the elite rated stuff, definitely. But even someone like me had something to work toward. We'd feel like we weren't wasting our time in random battlegrounds and we always had something to look forward to. In the context of Shadowlands, if it was something like 213 that would be totally awesome. I don't need mythic gear, I just want good progression.

Bring that back and I'd be totally happy.

[Kralljin]

I'd be happy if we could just get the slow trickle of decent conquest gear through random battlegrounds.

Issue of random Battlegrounds that you'd be promoting AFK leeching by a massive degree.

It's something that occurred in mid / late TBC, when people could by S1 / S2 gear via honor, there was a massive infestation of AFK leeching going on or people joining with fresh 70 in quest greens into Battlegrounds that just died when somebody with halfway decent gear looked at them the wrong way - sometimes you just knew you lost a battleground because half of your team wears quest greens.

Disregarding that in TBC, PvP gear was at least not universally equivalent to PvE gear, Tanks nor Healers could really rely on PvP to gear themselves, even dps still had to wear PvE items as PvP items lacked a ton of hit / expertise necessary for PvE.
While singular pieces were pretty solid, relying entirely on PvP to gear yourself still put at a disadvantage in PvE because the gear lacked those stats.

Those barriers are gone now and thus you'd be causing a huge short circuit in the gearing system as everybody then just flocks towards random battlegrounds to gear their character unless the grind is absolutely humongous.

[Tadkins]

Issue of random Battlegrounds that you'd be promoting AFK leeching by a massive degree.

For what it's worth, I have never AFKed in those. I would support harsher anti-AFK measures in random battlegrounds. I've gone into every random BG, contributed where it was needed (even if I was the only one left guarding a node), and did the absolute very best I can to win.

But yeah I am supporting something akin to the MoP/WoD model where basic honor gear was easy to get, and random battlegrounds would award a slow trickle of conquest so that even people like me who avoids arena like the plague would eventually get a set of conquest gear, that's actually great in PvP. I don't think that's unreasonable.

[Kralljin]

I don't think that's unreasonable.

The elephant in the room is still the fact that PvP gear is completely viable in PvE and can easily cause what we see right now with people flocking towards PvP simply because it's more efficient gear yourself via PvP, only to then realize that they no longer need to PvE at all because they already got the gear from PvP.

[Tadkins]

The elephant in the room is still the fact that PvP gear is completely viable in PvE and can easily cause what we see right now with people flocking towards PvP simply because it's more efficient gear yourself via PvP, only to then realize that they no longer need to PvE at all because they already got the gear from PvP.

Generally by the time someone like me managed to get a full conquest set, we were close to the next patch/next expansion. I'm not entirely sure how efficient that would be. In terms of pure ilvl most every other organized method would be far more efficient and quicker.

I could see someone maybe mixing in random BG PvP with their usual group PvE routine, and then later spending that hard-earned conquest on a 213 piece for a slot that refuses to drop for them in their PvE settings, but that's about it. If I'm spending months trying to win a hundred or so battlegrounds throughout a patch in between my LFRs, heroic dungeons and WQs, would it be so bad that I get a few decent pieces of gear out of that?

I know some in this thread would accuse me of being some unreasonable entitled monster for asking that.

[Kralljin]

Generally by the time someone like me managed to get a full conquest set, we were close to the next patch/next expansion. I'm not entirely sure how efficient that would be. In terms of pure ilvl most every other organized method would be far more efficient and quicker.

The issue you'd be having that people could get very solid gear via the Weekly chest and said Random Battlegrounds.

The concept of "people get the same gear but slower" is something that won't go well very long until Players realize it's just easier to engage in trivial content and wait for the gear to come to them.

would it be so bad that I get a few decent pieces of gear out of that?

You said it yourself that your endgame is getting a full set of conquest gear, not "just a few pieces".

[Tadkins]

The issue you'd be having that people could get very solid gear via the Weekly chest and said Random Battlegrounds.

The concept of "people get the same gear but slower" is something that won't go well very long until Players realize it's just easier to engage in trivial content and wait for the gear to come to them.

I wouldn't say that winning BG after BG over the course of weeks, months, is exactly trivial. I think most folks lucky enough to get into raids and M+ would find it faster to get gear out of those.

You said it yourself that your endgame is getting a full set of conquest gear, not "just a few pieces".

In all honestly I don't think I ever even reached a full conquest set. It was a goal, definitely, and I worked toward it throughout a patch cycle, having fun by myself in the content I enjoyed without anyone to tell me no, but I think I ended pretty much every patch/expansion with a mix of honor and conquest.

For all the shit people talk about WoD, honestly spending entire days in Ashran was some of the most fun I ever had in WoW all around.