Legion was designed to make good players help bad players.

[Kaver]

Disclaimer: Sorry for using the terms "good" and "bad". It's just the simplest way to do it.

Raiding: The Legendary system made good players go back to earlier tiers and even do LFR to farm Legendaries. I remember that even when TOS was out I still did EN to farm off-spec Legendaries. This allowed bad players to complete content much more effortlessly and progress in their own way.

M+: I'm not sure if people remember this since it's many years ago now, but when Blizzard presented the M+ system, it was actually designed to make good players help bad players. The bad players would make their keys available for the good players to get AP and in return, the good players would help the bad players complete content. Back then you were not able to reset keys as you can now, and failing a key would result in it being actually depleted. So good players were forced to use the keys of bad players. Blizzard actively expressed that this was partly the intend of the system. Of course it didn't work out quite as they wanted it. Good players mostly ended up spamming Maw of Souls keys. But this problem was mostly due to the fact that longer dungeons didn't give more AP which is a simple design flaw and could easily have been fixed. They should simply have made dungeons like HoV and Arcway give more gear/AP than dungeons like Maw of Souls from the beginning of the expansion.

I consider myself a "good player". And to be fair I'm not going to help bad players unless there is something in it for me. "Community solidarity" is not enough. Right now the only incentive to help bad players is boosting. And we see how this ruins the game. The LFG is full of "WTS" groups. And it also ruins PVP.

Personally I wouldn't mind helping bad players, as long as there is some kind of incentive in it for me. And I think unless Blizzard make some in-game reward structure to incentivize helping bad players (like they did in Legion), we wont see the boosting problem being reduced.

[Resheph]

There are no good and bad players, as it's all relative. There's just people having fun playing a game on the level and in the way they are comfortable with.

I have seen a girlfriend of mine play wow during mop who could hardly fly straight, refused to learn all the talents and was totally addicted to the game and had a blast playing it. And that's what a game supposed to do.

You are taking this all way, way to serious. And no, your theory of game design is incorrect, you are projecting your own insecurities and misconceptions about the game and its players on Blizzard.

[Kaver]

There are no good and bad players, as it's all relative. There's just people having fun playing a game on the level and in the way they are comfortable with.

I have seen a girlfriend of mine play wow during mop who could hardly fly straight, refused to learn all the talents and was totally addicted to the game and had a blast playing it. And that's what a game supposed to do.

You are taking this all way, way to serious. And no, your theory of game design is incorrect, you are projecting your own insecurities and misconceptions about the game and its players on Blizzard.

I said in the beginning that using the terms "good" and "bad" was only to simplify the post. But because you unable to abstract yourself from that, you're completely missing the point of the thread.

[Flurryfang]

I would agree, that the design of Legion did help players of many different levels play together. I remember doing a lot of keys with people who were lower level, but they ahd the right key, so nobody cared.

Im not sure it was intended though. Especially since they would not repeat any of this, especially with the removal of TF.

[Kaver]

Im not sure it was intended though.

I remember Blizzard saying that it was. At least in relation to the keystone system.

[loras]

Disclaimer: Sorry for using the terms "good" and "bad". It's just the simplest way to do it.

Raiding: The Legendary system made good players go back to earlier tiers and even do LFR to farm Legendaries. I remember that even when TOS was out I still did EN to farm off-spec Legendaries. This allowed bad players to complete content much more effortlessly and progress in their own way.

M+: I'm not sure if people remember this since it's many years ago now, but when Blizzard presented the M+ system, it was actually designed to make good players help bad players. The bad players would make their keys available for the good players to get AP and in return, the good players would help the bad players complete content. Back then you were not able to reset keys as you can now, and failing a key would result in it being actually depleted. So good players were forced to use the keys of bad players. Blizzard actively expressed that this was partly the intend of the system. Of course it didn't work out quite as they wanted it. Good players mostly ended up spamming Maw of Souls keys. But this problem was mostly due to the fact that longer dungeons didn't give more AP which is a simple design flaw and could easily have been fixed. They should simply have made dungeons like HoV and Arcway give more gear/AP than dungeons like Maw of Souls from the beginning of the expansion.

I consider myself a "good player". And to be fair I'm not going to help bad players unless there is something in it for me. "Community solidarity" is not enough. Right now the only incentive to help bad players is boosting. And we see how this ruins the game. The LFG is full of "WTS" groups. And it also ruins PVP.

Personally I wouldn't mind helping bad players, as long as there is some kind of incentive in it for me. And I think unless Blizzard make some in-game reward structure to incentivize helping bad players (like they did in Legion), we wont see the boosting problem being reduced.

A fair analysis, though i think it's also down, in part, to giving "bad" players continueing paths towards improvement, rather than locking disproportionately powerful rewards behind thresholds they cannot realistically pass due to time or skill constraints.

[Kralljin]

It's a terrible idea.

"good" and "bad" players should each go their own way in the game, because when they overlap, it breeds toxicity to an insane degree unless Blizzard timegates the shit out of it like Warfronts (you know people would have attempted to rush the endboss if Blizzard didn't implement any hard barriers).

Good players start to shit on the bad players, bad players get mad at good players because of it and so forth.

Disregarding that designing content around the very concept that a player has not to improve themselves but simply rely on the help of better players is not good.

I still remember the days of (late) Wotlk daily heroics, where a fresh player might end up with some Heroic raider that's just in there for the two Emblems.

Short story of mine, i played a Tank alt in late Wotlk and ended up in Nexus Heroic with a ICC 25man Heroic Resto Shaman that literally just wrote "go go go" and refused to stand still even for a moment and pulled packs by himself if i fell behind.
I didn't care, altough it was an Alt with terrible gear, i could keep up and complete the dungeon super fast because said Shaman could just outheal any damage i took.

Any fresh / bad player would have absolutely crumbled in that scenario.

I consider myself a "good player". And to be fair I'm not going to help bad players unless there is something in it for me. "Community solidarity" is not enough. Right now the only incentive to help bad players is boosting. And we see how this ruins the game. The LFG is full of "WTS" groups. And it also ruins PVP.

Because no one would ever bring a "bad" player to a Heroic / Mythic raid just because they want to be nice and carry them through the run and hand them rewards.

Even in the examples provided, the gist isn't that people want to help others, they want the rewards from the activity - and once anything goes south, drama will ensue.

Boosting exists because too many players have too much gold (you're free to theorize where that gold comes from) and because they can't be arsed to play the game in its intended fashion, meaning to improve yourself to tackle higher difficulties.

[Kaver]

A fair analysis, though i think it's also down, in part, to giving "bad" players continueing paths towards improvement, rather than locking disproportionately powerful rewards behind thresholds they cannot realistically pass due to time or skill constraints.

I do see that as a separate issue to some degree.

But of course, in order to get good players to do content they already progressed past, their should be some kind of reward in that lower-end content and I guess you can connect that to the overall "path of improvement" design.

[Flurryfang]

I remember Blizzard saying that it was. At least in relation to the keystone system.

....Now that i remember back, i think you are right.

But then it is a shame, they did not try to improve on that system, by making low level keys useful for high level M+ people or something like that. I make 3 keys a week now and nothing more. Its not really an encentive to go further unless you are ready to do 10 O.o

[dacoolist]

Us bad players need all the help we can get

When it comes to mitigating skill, things like the amount of time you can play, addons, and getting ahead by getting content down as soon as it releases is the best option for bads like me

Legions systems though arent anywhere near as generous as Shadowlands. Literally the vault promotes running extra keys, raids, and rated pvp content to unlock more chances at good loot.

Tl;dr I agree somewhat op, but other expacs have their carry system in place too

[Xalvia]

You are listing 2 "pros" of early-ish Legion systems and are conveniently not mentioning the cons.

[Kaver]

Because no one would ever bring a "bad" player to a Heroic / Mythic raid just because they want to be nice and carry them through the run and hand them rewards.

Even in the examples provided, the gist isn't that people want to help others, they want the rewards from the activity - and once anything goes south, drama will ensue.

Boosting exists because too many players have too much gold (you're free to theorize where that gold comes from) and because they can't be arsed to play the game in its intended fashion, meaning to improve yourself to tackle higher difficulties.

Mate I specifically said what you are saying. Good players NEED an incentive to help bad players. That was my entire point. So I'm not sure how you've missed that in my post.

But anyway, as I said, right now boosting is the ONLY incentive in the game for good players to help bad players.

- - - Updated - - -

You are listing 2 "pros" of early-ish Legion systems and are conveniently not mentioning the cons.

Don't get me wrong. There was A LOT of cons. And I'm not really listing any pros. I'm simply stating the facts of how the game was designed back then. I'm not saying it was good or bad. Personally I hated the RNG aspect of the Legendaries just like everyone else. Getting Sephyz in the beginning of Legion was just a kick in the nuts.

[Feral Druid ist Op]

i agree as some oen who did the maw grind for helya (300+ keys in 2 weeks) Blizard forced us top raiders to farm lfr/normal/hc and mythic for badluck protection itwas the only way to "farm" 1 Lego a week after they removed the hardcap of 4 in 7.1 and it was the worst System to date, im glad its gone.

[Kaver]

....Now that i remember back, i think you are right.

But then it is a shame, they did not try to improve on that system, by making low level keys useful for high level M+ people or something like that. I make 3 keys a week now and nothing more. Its not really an encentive to go further unless you are ready to do 10 O.o

I think they tried to actually make an incentive by making all key levels give the same valor points. The different now is that a group of good players can simply reduce the level of their own key so they don't need the key of the bad player like they did in Legion.

[bloodmoth13]

Yeah i made the same conclusion. I thought it was really clever and did a lot to help ease new players into content. I'm late to shadowlands and want to get into M+, there is no group finder tool for M+ so i went into the group maker tool and EVERYTHING was WTS runs other than triple dps groups begging for a tank or healer.

[Kaver]

i agree as some oen who did the maw grind for helya (300+ keys in 2 weeks) Blizard forced us top raiders to farm lfr/normal/hc and mythic for badluck protection itwas the only way to "farm" 1 Lego a week after they removed the hardcap of 4 in 7.1 and it was the worst System to date, im glad its gone.

And as I mention to the other guys above, this thread was not meant to say that it was a good system. I just wanted to enlighten the contrast to what we have in Shadowland because I think it's an interesting subject. It really show how much the design philosophy of Blizzard fluctuates. And to some degree I don't mind helping bad players... but I want a reward for it! And boosting gold is not good for the game IMO.

[Loveliest]

Most of the things you mention were corrected / fixed. We're now two expansions after and no one needs to do lfr for anything and no one needs to run dungeons with ppl with low rio. So I don't follow. There isn't and there should never be any "incentive" that is so good that you have to "help" others to get. The only thing that exists now is maybe that call to arms for some roles, that gives a meh bag.

[Kralljin]

Mate I specifically said what you are saying. Good players NEED an incentive to help bad players. That was my entire point. So I'm not sure how you've missed that in my post.

But anyway, as I said, right now boosting is the ONLY incentive in the game for good players to help bad players.

Yes and you ignore that the "good" players still don't give a rat's arse about the bad players and simply seek to use them while the bad players at best are being handed rewards that they've not earned and at worst causes huge drama because a bad players screws with a good players which in turn will likely make the good player turn on the bad player - which results in toxicity.

[Rotted]

Because no one would ever bring a "bad" player to a Heroic / Mythic raid just because they want to be nice and carry them through the run and hand them rewards.

Even in the examples provided, the gist isn't that people want to help others, they want the rewards from the activity - and once anything goes south, drama will ensue.

Boosting exists because too many players have too much gold (you're free to theorize where that gold comes from) and because they can't be arsed to play the game in its intended fashion, meaning to improve yourself to tackle higher difficulties.

It worked for us tbh. I convinced three IRL friends to come to wow during legion, one a vet and two new players. We got into pug raiding pretty quickly because we set up as a tank, heal and two dps. After a month I had other ingame friends joining us regular and we formed a cross guild server. We started to expand and we targeted solo players who were struggling to get into normal / hadn't heroic before / lower than avg ilvl for that content

In a matter of months we had a team clearing HC kj weekly of people who couldn't even get into groups before. We then hit Argus on release and about 2 weeks in we took 7th spot for server guild raid progress. About half way through we took spot 6 because we just managed to clear the first boss on mythic.

Basically you get what you put in

[Kaver]

Most of the things you mention were corrected / fixed. We're now two expansions after and no one needs to do lfr for anything and no one needs to run dungeons with ppl with low rio. So I don't follow. There isn't and there should never be any "incentive" that is so good that you have to "help" others to get. The only thing that exists now is maybe that call to arms for some roles, that gives a meh bag.

You're missing the point. I'm purely stating how the game was designed back in Legion because it's an interesting contrast to how the game is designed now.

And also, I think the current boosting meta is getting out of hand.