1. #401
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    You clearly don't understand incrementalism. Start simple, by stopping spending increases.
    I can't begin to describe how incredibly shortsighted such an absolutely fundamentally wrongheaded and this kind of oversimplisitic thinking is. I genuinely don't know where to begin.

    There really does seem to be a real failure of imagination nowadays, it's disappointing.

  2. #402
    Herald of the Titans
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    2,821
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    The part where you said I support slavery.
    You want a society where defacto slavery would be the end result. The fact that you're too blind in your ideals to see that is your issue.
    The fact that these slaves might be called "workers" who have a "contract" is a different issue.
    You claim to be against corporatism and against big government because of corporations using said government. But the only reason Government is this size is because before it was, corporations did it anyway. Just with less issues and oversight.
    See the Trusts and how they worked with each other for each others gain. Your vision would bring that back.
    - Lars

  3. #403
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    pending...
    Posts
    23,913
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Less government leans less ability for those corporations to use government to abuse the shit out of people. It means a more-balanced competitive marketplace.
    You have zero evidence that supports this claim.

    It's just wishful thinking based on well nothing really because it's not even logical. If corporations currently fuck over people with the help of the government, why should they stop doing so without a government around? Why would they suddenly try to do good? Also, healthcare is not really a competitive marketplace anyway because you can't just rush to a hospital of your choice, negotiate a price and if you are unhappy with the offer simply leave and go to another hospital. You know, because if you really need it, you are probably in a situation where it's either get help or die.
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  4. #404
    Over 9000! Santti's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Finland
    Posts
    9,112
    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    You have zero evidence that supports this claim.

    It's just wishful thinking based on well nothing really because it's not even logical. If corporations currently fuck over people with the help of the government, why should they stop doing so without a government around? Why would they suddenly try to do good? Also, healthcare is not really a competitive marketplace anyway because you can't just rush to a hospital of your choice, negotiate a price and if you are unhappy with the offer simply leave and go to another hospital. You know, because if you really need it, you are probably in a situation where it's either get help or die.
    Yeah, they certainly wouldn't. I'd imagine in his world, "less government" would basically mean "no government". As in, there is fuck-all to prevent monopolies from forming.

    Watch, as he argues that the solution would be for the people to take the responsibility, and boycott the abusive monopolies, so it's not a problem.
    Quote Originally Posted by SpaghettiMonk View Post
    And again, let’s presume equity in schools is achievable. Then why should a parent read to a child?

  5. #405
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    pending...
    Posts
    23,913
    Quote Originally Posted by Santti View Post
    Yeah, they certainly wouldn't. I'd imagine in his world, "less government" would basically mean "no government". As in, there is fuck-all to prevent monopolies from forming.
    Sifting through his responses in this thread alone, and going by his mantra of "do what you will unless it harms others" he wants some government, he just can't define or explain how that some government is supposed to check if corporations or individuals harm others with their actions or inactions and stop them. And whenever one brings up healthcare he brings up serving nazis in a restaurant. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    Quote Originally Posted by Santti View Post
    Watch, as he argues that the solution would be for the people to take the responsibility, and boycott the abusive monopolies, so it's not a problem.
    Boycott private healthcare, yeah, dying will really help your case in sticking it to the corporations, HA! What you gonna do, resurrect me? Check mate!
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  6. #406
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    pending...
    Posts
    23,913
    Quote Originally Posted by Yas-Queen Rochana View Post
    Well,

    Some people assume that more government means more control over corporations, but we have plenty of evidence that shows that large governments just get infiltrated by corporations and that in the end this large government just gets weaponized against everyone and everything that isn't a corporation.
    Hu, so riddle me this, how would less government make it harder for corporations to work against everyone and everything that isn't a corporation? Also, governments can be changed by the voters, corporations can't. So machismo is arguing against the only tool that has the ability to put corporations in their place. Yeah, that just screams of being pro-liberty. Just corporate liberty, everyone else can die in a ditch.
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  7. #407
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    I can't begin to describe how incredibly shortsighted such an absolutely fundamentally wrongheaded and this kind of oversimplisitic thinking is. I genuinely don't know where to begin.

    There really does seem to be a real failure of imagination nowadays, it's disappointing.
    That's the point of it, to focus on something small in the short term.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Muzjhath View Post
    You want a society where defacto slavery would be the end result. The fact that you're too blind in your ideals to see that is your issue.
    The fact that these slaves might be called "workers" who have a "contract" is a different issue.
    You claim to be against corporatism and against big government because of corporations using said government. But the only reason Government is this size is because before it was, corporations did it anyway. Just with less issues and oversight.
    See the Trusts and how they worked with each other for each others gain. Your vision would bring that back.
    Nope, not at all.

    That's the point that people don't seem to get. I have no illusions that I will get my way with everything, nor should you believe that to be the case. That's why the key is starting small, and getting what little victories you can.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    You have zero evidence that supports this claim.

    It's just wishful thinking based on well nothing really because it's not even logical. If corporations currently fuck over people with the help of the government, why should they stop doing so without a government around? Why would they suddenly try to do good? Also, healthcare is not really a competitive marketplace anyway because you can't just rush to a hospital of your choice, negotiate a price and if you are unhappy with the offer simply leave and go to another hospital. You know, because if you really need it, you are probably in a situation where it's either get help or die.
    A less-powerful government means that the corporations have less of a sword to use against other corporations and the people.

    The government is the "or else" aspect of the equation.

    Here's the part that people get, they want to focus on their misinterpretation of the "utopian" aspect of it, instead of the incrementalist part. These are things that I would do in the short term:

    Make it easier to vote. Conversely, stop making it more difficult to vote. Voting should be as simple as possible, and suppression should not be used as a tactic to win elections.

    Legalize marijuana at the federal level. This will greatly aid the ending of the prison-industrial complex, cut down on welfare in the long term, and not disrupt the lives of citizens who are not harming others.

    Stop federal government spending increases for 5 years. This is to push government to run more efficiently, seek out fraud, waste, and abuse... and means that they are not simply trying to continue getting funding.

    Stop governments from trying to limit the 1st Amendment rights of website and business owners. This is rather simple, businesses and their owners employees should have rights.

    Stop governments from limiting the right to an abortion, as they have bodily autonomy. This is to ensure the 14th Amendment rights of women.

    Stop governments from supporting legislation and government action that limit the constitutional rights of gay people. This is a clear attempt to protect the 14th Amendment.

    Not allow for eminent domain for private use. This protects private property rights, and limits corporatism

    Start with those. Are those stances outlandish? Every single one of them has a reasonable justification.
    Last edited by Machismo; 2021-04-09 at 11:11 AM.

  8. #408
    Quote Originally Posted by Yas-Queen Rochana View Post
    Theoretically.

    But in reality?

    I quote from a study:
    "Multivariate analysis indicates that economic elites and organised groups representing business interests have substantial independent impacts on US government policy, while average citizens and mass-based interest groups have little or no independent influence."

    Corporations decide what governments do, voters have little to no impact.
    It's good to hear you dropped all that complaining about America not being progressive enough.

    /s

  9. #409
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    pending...
    Posts
    23,913
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    A less-powerful government means that the corporations have less of a sword to use against other corporations and the people.

    The government is the "or else" aspect of the equation.
    A less-powerful government means that the corporations have to spend less money on changing laws and creating regulations that favor them because there won't be anything to change.

    What exactly do you think corporations use governments for that they couldn't do without governments?

    I mean, apart from what you want is not what you will get because you keep ignoring a significant part of your equation and focus on one thing only you also never answer any questions.

    Waiting for your evidence, any day now, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  10. #410
    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    A less-powerful government means that the corporations have to spend less money on changing laws and creating regulations that favor them because there won't be anything to change.

    What exactly do you think corporations use governments for that they couldn't do without governments?

    I mean, apart from what you want is not what you will get because you keep ignoring a significant part of your equation and focus on one thing only you also never answer any questions.

    Waiting for your evidence, any day now, right?
    Corporations use government to push regulations that stifle competition. I'm reminded of when Jack Daniel's Distillery tried to use the Kentucky government to determine that it couldn't be called Kentucky whiskey unless it was aged in the same barrels thar they used.

    Then there's the organic-food industry that tried to force labeling restrictions on their competitors in order to help sell the narrative that organic food is better.

  11. #411
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    In my bunker leading uprisings
    Posts
    19,214
    Quote Originally Posted by Yas-Queen Rochana View Post
    Theoretically.

    But in reality?

    I quote from a study:
    "Multivariate analysis indicates that economic elites and organised groups representing business interests have substantial independent impacts on US government policy, while average citizens and mass-based interest groups have little or no independent influence."

    Corporations decide what governments do, voters have little to no impact.
    Well the government is at least formally democratic. The corporate structure is pure tyrannical hierarchy. Granted its not perfect but what your suggesting is that the palace guard is being bribed so clearly the harem guard is at fault at not the guy bribing them.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  12. #412
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    pending...
    Posts
    23,913
    Quote Originally Posted by Yas-Queen Rochana View Post
    Theoretically.

    But in reality?

    I quote from a study:
    "Multivariate analysis indicates that economic elites and organised groups representing business interests have substantial independent impacts on US government policy, while average citizens and mass-based interest groups have little or no independent influence."

    Corporations decide what governments do, voters have little to no impact.
    Corporations aren't the ones that vote for people, so even if it looks bleak in the US and other countries, unless they turn into authoritarian dictatorships the voters still can change things. What could average citizens do without governments?
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  13. #413
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    In my bunker leading uprisings
    Posts
    19,214
    Quote Originally Posted by Yas-Queen Rochana View Post
    Who is at fault isn't particularly relevant, because there are no tools to enforce accountability. There is nobody that is going to "punish" the government for taking bribes nor corporations for handing them out - bar outside of elections, but it appears as if those don't matter much, since corporations will swoop in and decide policy after the election show is over anyhow.

    Purely practically speaking at this very moment the government and corporations are almost the same people (this should also be obvious from how many politicians jump into a corporate level job after their terms are over or become investors or part of the board of directors). Ergo the more authority you give government, the more authority and power you are handing to corporations.
    Well again this goes back to it being a democracy. Their is somebody to punish them for taking bribes,the voters. The problem isn't government or even democracy, its actually a lack of government and democracy. The workplace needs to be a democratic institution as well and the populace needs to be politically active at large. Republicans by and large do everything to stop this of course.

    Again removing the palace guard doesn't actually stop the reason he was being bribed in the first place. The guy bribing him will just now not have to bribe him.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  14. #414
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    pending...
    Posts
    23,913
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Corporations use government to push regulations that stifle competition. I'm reminded of when Jack Daniel's Distillery tried to use the Kentucky government to determine that it couldn't be called Kentucky whiskey unless it was aged in the same barrels thar they used.

    Then there's the organic-food industry that tried to force labeling restrictions on their competitors in order to help sell the narrative that organic food is better.
    Do you have links to any of this? Forgive me but I will not just trust your word.

    And again because we have to spell it out for you again and again, without government there would not even be any regulations. Everyone could just name their Whiskey Jack Daniels. That's really great for competition, right?

    Labels would read "good for you, trust us" "ingredients used to make you stronger, no really" "will work 100% of the time and if not, well who cares you can't sue us anyway" "this is the only product left because we bought all the competition or just stopped their supply, so what choice do you have"

    I mean, even you acknowledge that corporations are not in favor of competition, so what would stop them from getting rid of their competitors?
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  15. #415
    Quote Originally Posted by Yas-Queen Rochana View Post
    Who is at fault isn't particularly relevant, because there are no tools to enforce accountability. There is nobody that is going to "punish" the government for taking bribes nor corporations for handing them out - bar outside of elections, but it appears as if those don't matter much, since corporations will swoop in and decide policy after the election show is over anyhow.

    Purely practically speaking at this very moment the government and corporations are almost the same people (this should also be obvious from how many politicians jump into a corporate level job after their terms are over or become investors or part of the board of directors). Ergo the more authority you give government, the more authority and power you are handing to corporations.

    I recall another recent study that pointed out that the majority of people on Biden's cabinet are people with recent jobs at Citibank or Wall Street.
    It didn't bother ypu when Trump did it. You loved it so much, you flew to America to vote for him.

  16. #416
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    pending...
    Posts
    23,913
    Quote Originally Posted by Yas-Queen Rochana View Post
    Who is at fault isn't particularly relevant, because there are no tools to enforce accountability. There is nobody that is going to "punish" the government for taking bribes nor corporations for handing them out - bar outside of elections, but it appears as if those don't matter much, since corporations will swoop in and decide policy after the election show is over anyhow.

    Purely practically speaking at this very moment the government and corporations are almost the same people (this should also be obvious from how many politicians jump into a corporate level job after their terms are over or become investors or part of the board of directors). Ergo the more authority you give government, the more authority and power you are handing to corporations.

    I recall another recent study that pointed out that the majority of people on Biden's cabinet are people with recent high management jobs at Citibank or Wall Street.
    Are you aware that you're making a great case for getting rid of corporations or at least the way they can and do act right now?
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  17. #417
    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    Do you have links to any of this? Forgive me but I will not just trust your word.

    And again because we have to spell it out for you again and again, without government there would not even be any regulations. Everyone could just name their Whiskey Jack Daniels. That's really great for competition, right?

    Labels would read "good for you, trust us" "ingredients used to make you stronger, no really" "will work 100% of the time and if not, well who cares you can't sue us anyway" "this is the only product left because we bought all the competition or just stopped their supply, so what choice do you have"

    I mean, even you acknowledge that corporations are not in favor of competition, so what would stop them from getting rid of their competitors?
    I'm on my phone, so no links right now. Remind me later.

    As for the rest of what you said, you keep arguing as if I'm an anarchist, regardless of how many times I tell you otherwise.

    Edit: https://ota.com/advocacy/gmos/gmo-labeling

    https://www.justlabelit.org/press-ce...ains-traction/
    Last edited by Machismo; 2021-04-09 at 11:52 AM.

  18. #418
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    pending...
    Posts
    23,913
    You guys agree that cheaters are bad and your solution is to get rid of the rule book.
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  19. #419
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    pending...
    Posts
    23,913
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    I'm on my phone, so no links right now. Remind me later.

    As for the rest of what you said, you keep arguing as if I'm an anarchist, regardless of how many times I tell you otherwise.
    I'm not assigning a label, I am just going by your posts. You could always just say why I am wrong and present some evidence for your arguments, but as soon as you run out of answers you resort to this labeling nonsense as if it would change what you wrote.
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  20. #420
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    the other
    Posts
    58,334
    Quote Originally Posted by Yas-Queen Rochana View Post
    What makes you assume I'm pro-corporations?

    Because in my opinion a workplace would probably be several times more productive and successful if it was managed by the people working there on the ground-level, where the actual work needs to be done, instead of all the money flowing to the top management jobs to people who only know how to create nice organigrams and powerpoint presentations.
    Because it’s really easy to step on a lot of ants with one big boot.
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    No amount of belief makes something a fact. - James Randi

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •