{TV} The Falcon and the Winter Soldier

[rogueMatthias]

One thing that's interesting on the show is that every person in it thinks they're the good guy and the one with the just cause...

That said, I think the show's really over estimating the sympathy we're meant to have for the flag smashers. I understand their cause, and sympathise with it, but they're just more violent terrorists doing violent terrorist shit.

They also made it clear they would kill Walker, so I fail to see why I'm meant to feel sympathy for them at the end.

[Darththeo]

One thing that's interesting on the show is that every person in it thinks they're the good guy and the one with the just cause...

That said, I think the show's really over estimating the sympathy we're meant to have for the flag smashers. I understand their cause, and sympathise with it, but they're just more violent terrorists doing violent terrorist shit.

They also made it clear they would kill Walker, so I fail to see why I'm meant to feel sympathy for them at the end.

The difference between a Terrorist and a Revolutionary is the person writing/telling the story.

[s_bushido]

That said, I think the show's really over estimating the sympathy we're meant to have for the flag smashers. I understand their cause, and sympathise with it, but they're just more violent terrorists doing violent terrorist shit.

They also made it clear they would kill Walker, so I fail to see why I'm meant to feel sympathy for them at the end.

I don't think it's as important that the viewer sympathizes with them than it is to understand that the other people in that world do.

None of us knows what it's like for half the population of the planet to disappear in an instant, for everyone else to have to try and pick up the pieces and rebuilt their lives, only to have those billions of people return just as quickly and suddenly find yourself kicked out of the life that you might have only just started to become accustomed to again. But even then, displaced and dispossessed populations isn't exactly a new phenomenon in the human condition.

[formerShandalay]

I think about Karli and her goals/reasons I up to now agree most with Sam. Her reasons I understand, her goal I understand, but the way she's going about it I don't. And for a second it seemed that in her talk with Sam she actually realized what he was trying to tell her, because she looked surprised and almost shocked at what just came out of her own mouth. ... until Walker fucked the moment up of course.
Plus she tells Sam that he is naive, but she does work with someone giving her information that she then promptly uses to make herself look bad. If she is working with an 'anonymus' source, then she is the one being naive here, because she believes no one would manipulate her. Her source obviously has some serious inside information, like when the Flagsmashers are going to be attacked (first episode), Nagel being dead, the status of Sam and his sister's house (and them not getting the loan), Sarah's freaking phone number and the names of the nephews. She doesn't seem to question that source's loyalty to her and her cause.

[Xorzor]

I knew there was something seriously wrong with John Walker. I hope he gets killed next episode. Psychotic mongrel that he is, and that was before Hoskins was killed!

[rogueMatthias]

I knew there was something seriously wrong with John Walker. I hope he gets killed next episode. Psychotic mongrel that he is, and that was before Hoskins was killed!

This is why Walker's an interesting character. For better or worse he's US military through and through, who does whatever it takes to get the job done - much like with US military history, wether that makes him the "hero" or "villain" is the debate.

They literally just tried to murder him and killed his best friend. The FlagSmashers had made it clear they wanted him dead. The guy he killed was even holding him back so Karli could try and drive a knife into his heart, and then restrained him while his friend was killed.

Sure, he looked like he maybe felt regret before he ran away, but that doesn't make him less guity in his part in it (and their other bombings and killing civilians).

So when Walker had overpowered the guy by the fountain who'd literally just been trying to kill him and murdered his best friend...

SHOULD you stop as soon as he was overpowered and the guy was surrendering? Hell yes!

But would you?

[s_bushido]

SHOULD you stop as soon as he was overpowered and the guy was surrendering? Hell yes!

But would you?

The final scene of this episode is probably supposed to be a direct parallel to what happened at the end of Civil War. Right down to the camera angle they used as he was lifting the shield above his head. Steve had the opportunity to kill Tony, who had just spent the past few minutes trying to murder Bucky. And it looked like he just might do it when he knocked Tony's helmet off...but he didn't. Doesn't really matter what you or I would do in that situation, Captain America wouldn't kill the guy. And that's why Captain Douchebag over here will never measure up.

[Xorzor]

This is why Walker's an interesting character. For better or worse he's US military through and through, who does whatever it takes to get the job done - much like with US military history, wether that makes him the "hero" or "villain" is the debate.

They literally just tried to murder him and killed his best friend. The FlagSmashers had made it clear they wanted him dead. The guy he killed was even holding him back so Karli could try and drive a knife into his heart, and then restrained him while his friend was killed.

Sure, he looked like he maybe felt regret before he ran away, but that doesn't make him less guity in his part in it (and their other bombings and killing civilians).

So when Walker had overpowered the guy by the fountain who'd literally just been trying to kill him and murdered his best friend...

SHOULD you stop as soon as he was overpowered and the guy was surrendering? Hell yes!

But would you?

If it were me, and I was as powerful or (infinitely) more so than Walker?

My honest for-real answer??

Hell yes! In fact I'd do a lot worse to the perp(s) were I able; painfully-slow deatomization, suck all the oxygen out of their bodies, snap away their limbs, snap away all five senses, the previous two combined, trap them in their own minds in an endless nightmare...take your pick! Because in such a scenario, no one would F with those I care about!!

[Kyphael]

Episode 4 is easily the best so far. Everything came to a head in such a satisfying way. I got to admit, I didn't see the end coming. I legit thought Walker was a decent enough person deep down and that Feige/Marvel were going to make him the new Captain America going forward in the MCU, featuring in Avengers movies and everything, but I guess Steve Rogers really is irreplaceable (for now?) I think it's obvious what happens now. Walker's name is tarnished.

Back when they first introduced Walker, I think I was maybe one of the few that loved his character. I like d-bag characters and concepts that buck the trend and are contrary, but also because he had redeeming qualities. I even predicted the show would end with him (still human, never predicted he'd take the Super Soldier serum) sacrificing himself somehow to show everyone he wasn't a bad guy, and that you don't need a super soldier serum to be Captain America. *shrug* But this show seems laser focused on emphasizing Steve Rogers was unique, and special (if you're white? Isaiah Bradley says hi.) I liked John Walker. I would have stood behind him becoming the new full time Captain America, but this has become the Steve Rogers' Legacy Show more than Falcon & Winter Soldier. I guess it's still in the cards for Sam and/or Bucky to take up the shield?

Two more episodes to go.

[JDL49]

Has SHIELD appear in any MCU movie since Winter Soldier? Former SHIELD agents and assets have, but SHIELD itself ... questionable in Age of Ultron, but that's it.

Agents of SHIELD was about rebuilding from the fractures, and is arguable if it is or is not MCU canon.

There are two layers to the is it canon question.

1) What was the intent at inception ?

It was intended by all parties that it be canonical and subject to a great deal of control from the movie side. Anything from the comics not already ceded to the show had to granted permission to use by them. And of course it must not conflict with the movies.

2) Did it achieve that ?

Through S5 it did. but believing that S5 was the end they actually put a date on one scene near the end as being in 2018. Given the one year gap between S5 and 6 that just doesn't work. In order to be canonical that needs to be fixed.

But generally speaking the answer is it, (S1-S5) is canon until they say different. That is to say it can be revoked whenever Feige wants. As for the other shows I can't see them as being a problem as they did not deal with the same sort stuff that the movies did. AoS otoh, did.

[formerShandalay]

Episode 4 is easily the best so far. Everything came to a head in such a satisfying way. I got to admit, I didn't see the end coming. I legit thought Walker was a decent enough person deep down and that Feige/Marvel were going to make him the new Captain America going forward in the MCU, featuring in Avengers movies and everything, but I guess Steve Rogers really is irreplaceable (for now?) I think it's obvious what happens now. Walker's name is tarnished.

Back when they first introduced Walker, I think I was maybe one of the few that loved his character. I like d-bag characters and concepts that buck the trend and are contrary, but also because he had redeeming qualities. I even predicted the show would end with him (still human, never predicted he'd take the Super Soldier serum) sacrificing himself somehow to show everyone he wasn't a bad guy, and that you don't need a super soldier serum to be Captain America. *shrug* But this show seems laser focused on emphasizing Steve Rogers was unique, and special (if you're white? Isaiah Bradley says hi.) I liked John Walker. I would have stood behind him becoming the new full time Captain America, but this has become the Steve Rogers' Legacy Show more than Falcon & Winter Soldier. I guess it's still in the cards for Sam and/or Bucky to take up the shield?

Two more episodes to go.

You know, at the end I felt really sorry for Walker, even though I felt more sorry for the guy who actually used to like Captain America and was killed. John Walker clearly seems to be guy that is defined by his wish to live up to expectations and has always had a certain understanding of what this 'living up to expectations' has to look like. He has to be smart, smile, be brutal when getting shat on, do 'the job' by any means neccessary and never acknowledge any (perceived) weakness. He seems to suffer from PTSD, but also seems to view therapy as unneccessary. He needs to be shown constant respect and be the most important person in any given room. He doesn't take other peoples' strenghts into account or he would have known about the Dora Milaje and the fact that Wakandans have freaking Vibranium clothes (which would maybe make him less shocked that he lost against them, because they are supersoldiers in a way). Had he not been made Captain America, he may have become a great man, even with the serum possibly, because he'd have one less expectation to live up to and his ego would not have been as inflated by that. Whoever made the decision to give him the shield and title has done John Walker a disservice (and maybe on purpose, but that's just my opinion^^) and made him from a flawed man into a monster. He could have become a good man under other circumstances.


Btw I think Karli is going down the exact same route. People calling her a 'hero', 'Robin Hood' and saying she should have the shield is making her a little uneasy, but she does also seem to like it. She is feeling the weight of expectations too.



And yea, while it was to be expected, Lamar dying is a real bummer. :'(

[Ayirasi]

Another quality episode.

Jesus. Expected Walker to fall, but not like that, and certainly not in front of civilians.

I just saw this on Youtube, came here to post yet another video, but you beat me to it.
This is just perfect!

Coming from the official channel somehow makes it better.

[formerShandalay]

Another quality episode.

Jesus. Expected Walker to fall, but not like that, and certainly not in front of civilians.



Coming from the official channel somehow makes it better.

Yes, it's kind of like.... they invited everybody to a Marvel-party

[Ihavewaffles]

Jesus. Expected Walker to fall, but not like that, and certainly not in front of civilians.

ironic, he smashed a flag smasher.

Well, one less terrorist.

[RobertoCarlos]

Was obvious walker wasn't the new cap. Marvel wouldn't have the balls to give it to a white dude after flirting it with Sam

[eschatological]

I almost had sympathy for Walker in this episode when he and Hoskins were talking about having PTSD from Afghanistan, but dancing around the issue, as if they never really discuss it. Almost.

I don't even necessarily blame him for killing the dude, if it was in a fight and the dude wasn't obviously running/helpless, but it does show he is unhinged.

That shot at the end, with the shield, is fucking iconic. And a bit haunting. That being said, I never thought Walker was going to be Captain America in this series, so it's not unexpected. I think I even said in this thread the dude would probably snap, and then have to take the super soldier serum. Didn't see Hoskins dying, but it makes sense since Hoskins seemed to be the only one who could hold his friend back, and his only support.

[Endus]

That said, I think the show's really over estimating the sympathy we're meant to have for the flag smashers. I understand their cause, and sympathise with it, but they're just more violent terrorists doing violent terrorist shit.

I watched a video before this episode dropped that talked about a "missing plotline" that explains it, and I think they're right on the money;



The nuts and bolts is; when they shot the show, there was a plotline about a pandemic. Whether it was natural or created, it was global. That's why the flagsmashers were stealing vaccines and that was a big deal; it wasn't just generic medical stuff, it was specifically vaccines for that disease, which were being hoarded by wealthier nations, letting the poor go without. That's what Karli's mentor would've died from, originally, not "tuberculosis", which Nando makes the point we only ever hear from offscreen, meaning it could have been added in when they re-edited to remove the pandemic thread.

It probably made sense as a good plot thread a year and a half ago, before there was a global pandemic, but now, those plot points would cut way too close for comfort for the audience, so it was (rightly, IMO) scrapped.

It means there's a bit of a hole where the Flagsmashers are, but it would've given them a lot more moral justification. And it's probably best to do things the way they have rather than to try and insert a different thread after the shooting's done, or to have left that pandemic plot thread in the final show.

The lack doesn't really change things, but it would've made the desperation of the Flagsmashers a bit more narratively justified.

[Jotaux]

A lot of people have sympathy for the flag smashers online. I just don't get it.

[PACOX]

I watched a video before this episode dropped that talked about a "missing plotline" that explains it, and I think they're right on the money;

[video=youtube;vbYnh0TTBN8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbYnh0TTBN8[/vdeo]

The nuts and bolts is; when they shot the show, there was a plotline about a pandemic. Whether it was natural or created, it was global. That's why the flagsmashers were stealing vaccines and that was a big deal; it wasn't just generic medical stuff, it was specifically vaccines for that disease, which were being hoarded by wealthier nations, letting the poor go without. That's what Karli's mentor would've died from, originally, not "tuberculosis", which Nando makes the point we only ever hear from offscreen, meaning it could have been added in when they re-edited to remove the pandemic thread.

It probably made sense as a good plot thread a year and a half ago, before there was a global pandemic, but now, those plot points would cut way too close for comfort for the audience, so it was (rightly, IMO) scrapped.

It means there's a bit of a hole where the Flagsmashers are, but it would've given them a lot more moral justification. And it's probably best to do things the way they have rather than to try and insert a different thread after the shooting's done, or to have left that pandemic plot thread in the final show.

The lack doesn't really change things, but it would've made the desperation of the Flagsmashers a bit more narratively justified.

I remember the whole vaccine thing, questions about taking the serum reminded me of it. I was like damn, Disney is good at predicting the future.

- - - Updated - - -

Was obvious walker wasn't the new cap. Marvel wouldn't have the balls to give it to a white dude after flirting it with Sam

Or maybe because they take directly from 616 stories and character profiles where both characters have been Captain America? It being Marvel and all.

[The Cheat]

The final scene of this episode is probably supposed to be a direct parallel to what happened at the end of Civil War. Right down to the camera angle they used as he was lifting the shield above his head. Steve had the opportunity to kill Tony, who had just spent the past few minutes trying to murder Bucky. And it looked like he just might do it when he knocked Tony's helmet off...but he didn't. Doesn't really matter what you or I would do in that situation, Captain America wouldn't kill the guy. And that's why Captain Douchebag over here will never measure up.

Thanks for pointing this out. I got a feeling of deja vu when he raised the shield over his head and I think you're pretty damn close to correct here.

Wild, fulfilling episode. It packed some punch and we've still got two to go. Loving it.