1st Amendment lawsuit - UVA Student Questions Microaggressions

[Mihalik]

Just for others who want to look, I know the OP linked it I'm just doubling up for clarity, in the audio link in question, the guy starts talking around 28:45. So you don't have to listen to the whole thing (it's just the question period for the panel, not the panel itself).
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Uff. I don't know about this one.

I haven't done much more research on this yet, but just on the OP and what you have said here, I'm not convinced he did anything that would quite warrant disciplinary action.

I'm not quite convinced "coming off as a confrontational asshole" in this specific context is quite enough for disciplinary action.

I can be a confrontational asshole. Let's say if I were to have a conversation with... I don't know, Ben Shapiro or whatnot, I am sure I would come off as being a dick to him, from his point of view.

This is way too subjective. All the conversations he had with various people seem to have been consensual and the issue here really fundamentally seems to be his unwillingness to change his stance, which is objectionable, but not in a way that would warrant a disciplinary action.

The guy is an asshole, but I feel the university overstepped.

[Elegiac]

Uff. I don't know about this one.

I haven't done much more research on this yet, but just on the OP and what you have said here, I'm not convinced he did anything that would quite warrant disciplinary action.

I'm not quite convinced "coming off as a confrontational asshole" in this specific context is quite enough.

I can be a confrontational asshole. Let's say if I were to have a conversation with... I don't know, Ben Shapiro or whatnot, I am sure I would come off as being a dick to him, from his point of view.

This is way to subjective. All the conversations he had with various people seem to have been consensual and the issue here really fundamentally seems to be his unwillingness to change his stance, which is objectionable, but not in a way that would warrant a disciplinary action.

The guy is an asshole, but I feel the university overstepped.

I don’t, for the same reason I don’t think it was overstepping getting rid of Maya Forstater for her views and conduct.

Free speech does not entitle folks to create a hostile work or school environment for others.

[Endus]

Uff. I don't know about this one.

I haven't done much more research on this yet, but just on the OP and what you have said here, I'm not convinced he did anything that would quite warrant disciplinary action.

I'm not quite convinced "coming off as a confrontational asshole" in this specific context is quite enough for disciplinary action.

I can be a confrontational asshole. Let's say if I were to have a conversation with... I don't know, Ben Shapiro or whatnot, I am sure I would come off as being a dick to him, from his point of view.

This is way too subjective. All the conversations he had with various people seem to have been consensual and the issue here really fundamentally seems to be his unwillingness to change his stance, which is objectionable, but not in a way that would warrant a disciplinary action.

The guy is an asshole, but I feel the university overstepped.

This isn't an open public discussion, it's a panel. The people he's upbraiding are not his peers; they're his academic superiors, and he's directly disrespecting them. That's why the whole thing started as a warning about professionalism, where yes, "being a confrontational asshole" is absolutely a breach. He then snowballed this by (apparently) getting increasingly belligerent and resistant to guidance, up to the point of making actual threats.

That's the thing about university; there's rules about this kind of stuff.

Edit: Occurs to me after the fact that he was in med school, and professional programs like that pretty typically require students to abide by ethical codes of the profession itself, over and above whatever rules the school itself might have, too. It's entirely in the school's responsibilities to ensure that people who should be a doctor for personality reasons don't become doctors.

[NED funded]

I don’t, for the same reason I don’t think it was overstepping getting rid of Maya Forstater for her views and conduct.

Free speech does not entitle folks to create a hostile work or school environment for others.

Maya forstarter did not get fired for creating a hostile work environment ������

Her contract wasnt renewed bc her employer did not want to b associated with her once her posts on social media were discovered. Her case is a year a old and ppl are still uninformed, read or dont post

[Saucexorzski]

The best part about this is that in this case, this particular specious argument was one of the things the court outright rejected. Sorry. See my first post in this thread.

But anyway, you're not being persecuted for being white just because you've tied your whiteness to your political stances, and have convinced yourself that people criticizing/ostracizing whatever regressive dogshit you believe in means that they're criticizing/ostracizing you because you're white.

What are my political stance hmm? tell me what they are since y'all base them off my skin color, go ahead and tell me.

[Elegiac]

Maya forstarter did not get fired for creating a hostile work environment

Cool, I didn't say that? Read it again.

[Endus]

What are my political stance hmm? tell me what they are since y'all base them off my skin color, go ahead and tell me.

Nobody here can see your skin color. You could be purple with green polka dots for all we know. They're drawing conclusions based on your stated opinions and stances.

[Nellise]

Just for others who want to look, I know the OP linked it I'm just doubling up for clarity, in the audio link in question, the guy starts talking around 28:45. So you don't have to listen to the whole thing (it's just the question period for the panel, not the panel itself).

Having listened to it, he's coming off aggressive and dismissive. Rapid speech, sharp phrasing, raising his voice, etc. Directly insulting to the speaker at one point, calling into question the validity of her research. If that's how the subsequent encounters went, then he's probably up shit creek; repeatedly refusing to adjust his demeanor in encounters with faculty demonstrates that he is the problem.

Is a University not a place for questioning things any more? It's not like he interrupted them during the panel, he asked his questions during the Q&A.

I listened to his section. He starts off speaking quickly and sounds more nervous than anything. He wasn't rude. He was asking questions that should be asked. Science shouldn't be based off anecdotal evidence and that's what he was questioning because those were the examples they gave. And they clearly contradicted themselves with what they were saying and what apparently the slide showed, so that's a good question to ask.

I don't blame them for cutting them off because they do need to let others ask questions, but they were giving him junk for responses so I get why he kept asking for clarifications.

[Endus]

Is a University not a place for questioning things any more? It's not like he interrupted them during the panel, he asked his questions during the Q&A.

Literally nothing about the action taken was about him asking questions. Plenty of other students asked questions at that panel and didn't face this kind of response.

Pushing the "just asking questions" angle is basically just deliberate dishonesty, aimed at deflecting that the actual reason for actions taken was his belligerent and disrespectful attitudes towards faculty.

I listened to his section. He starts off speaking quickly and sounds more nervous than anything. He wasn't rude.

He questioned the validity of the speaker's research and career.

That's super hostile, in an academic setting. It's the equivalent of saying they're making everything up and don't know what they're doing. Huge red flag, particularly after just sitting in on a panel and having done no research into the speaker's body of work.

He was asking questions that should be asked. Science shouldn't be based off anecdotal evidence and that's what he was questioning because those were the examples they gave.

All examples are anecdotal.

That doesn't mean there isn't a wide body of data behind them.

Which the other panelist pointed out, and he refused to listen to.

And if you can't hear the aggression in his voice, I dunno what to tell you. It's really clear. He's raising his voice, he starts speaking more quickly when they don't give him the answer he wants, he starts trying to talk over the panelists, etc. All signs of aggression, over and above the direct disrespecting he did.

[Milchshake]

Questions and debate are fine. But acting like a bully are not. Especially in the class room. This dumb dumb tried to bully the speaker. Then his doubled down on his stupidity, by trying to bully his Dean, then again when he tried to bully a whole committee.
Going after his Dean and the committee is what got him expelled.

Bullying and abusive speech in the classroom, is not protected speech.



No surprise the "DeBATE ME Bros" are lending plausible deniability to Reason.com and Kierien.
They're bullies themselves, and defending shitheads like Kierien and reason.com is in their self interest.
Bullies mistake themselves for "cool contrarians". But they lack the thick skin needed to be a contrarian or shade thrower. When called out, bullies always play the victim. Usually blaming some female authority figure (the Jungian Archetype of their kindergarten teacher who made the mistake of trying to correct their tantrums). Blaming the "establishment" is their other fallback victim play.

[Levelfive]

Uff. I don't know about this one.

I haven't done much more research on this yet, but just on the OP and what you have said here, I'm not convinced he did anything that would quite warrant disciplinary action.

I'm not quite convinced "coming off as a confrontational asshole" in this specific context is quite enough for disciplinary action.

I can be a confrontational asshole. Let's say if I were to have a conversation with... I don't know, Ben Shapiro or whatnot, I am sure I would come off as being a dick to him, from his point of view.

This is way too subjective. All the conversations he had with various people seem to have been consensual and the issue here really fundamentally seems to be his unwillingness to change his stance, which is objectionable, but not in a way that would warrant a disciplinary action.

The guy is an asshole, but I feel the university overstepped.

In most other--and particularly academic--settings, I would generally defend his right to be antagonistic and belligerent about offending people and then blaming their perception (while making a personal note never to spend time with him), but I can see why and think it's entirely legitimate that a medical school would have concerns about his temperament, both with colleagues and patients.

[Zython]

this lie is old, no Zython i will not kill folks for you.

Dude, we all saw you react in horror at the idea of Christians defending Jewish people. Take the L, apologize for being Christian, slit your throat, and try again next life.

[s_bushido]

What are my political stance hmm? tell me what they are since y'all base them off my skin color, go ahead and tell me.

I couldn't care less what your political stances are. If you push the "the left thinks racism towards white people is okay" bullshit, I'm going to call you on it.

[unfilteredJW]

What are my political stance hmm? tell me what they are since y'all base them off my skin color, go ahead and tell me.

This is a lie and a weak one at that considering we can look at your post history.

[Kraenen]

UVA's administration engaged in behavior that can be described as "gaslighting."

I was going to say this is a good description of much of the malignant behavior coming from lefties in the last couple decades. The thing that's dangerous - you never will know what could've been a "microaggression", and the person who was just revved up from a social justice class could think they have the right to socially/verbally/emotionally abuse you.

[Themius]

I was going to say this is a good description of much of the malignant behavior coming from lefties in the last couple decades. The thing that's dangerous - you never will know what could've been a "microaggression", and the person who was just revved up from a social justice class could think they have the right to socially/verbally/emotionally abuse you.

Mm "you neve know what could be a microaggression so better just ignore the entire concept and become mad and attack people instead of trying to understand anything"

The modus operandi of the right.

When accused of something one is ignorant about instead of learning about it... just say fuck it and get mad and say it doesn't exist. Bravo.

[tehdang]

link to motion to dismiss

The university is going to eat it on this and try to settle. They actually allege in their motion to dismiss the case that

For one, Plaintiff’s in-school comments were offensive, so they were not protected speech to begin with and the School was free to sanction them.

The motion to dismiss was not granted. The university didn't attempt to make an investigation to whether he was being disruptive or aggressive or out of line in the comments (still a very high bar to justify expulsion, but maybe in more extreme cases they'd have an argument here).

This, and other lawsuits, will make public universities think twice before railroading students. They have to reserve extreme discipline for extreme cases. Not use it for students asking questions during panel discussions or trainings. Seriously, unis like UVA, do better.

[Endus]

link to motion to dismiss

The university is going to eat it on this and try to settle. They actually allege in their motion to dismiss the case that

The motion to dismiss was not granted. The university didn't attempt to make an investigation to whether he was being disruptive or aggressive or out of line in the comments (still a very high bar to justify expulsion, but maybe in more extreme cases they'd have an argument here).

What "investigation"? They have audio if not video records and faculty testimony. They don't need to "make a case beyond a reasonable doubt" to suspend a student, dude.

[Stormspellz]

What are my political stance hmm? tell me what they are since y'all base them off my skin color, go ahead and tell me.

your political stance by your history of posts is fantasy delusional conservative victim complex, which has nothing to do with your skin color

[draynay]

Ugh at insufferable litigious assholes. How many other people take these stupid courses without being banned from campus? Somehow I managed to endure talk about "microaggressions" without pissing people off so badly they wanted nothing to do with me.