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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    I do see that as a separate issue to some degree.

    But of course, in order to get good players to do content they already progressed past, their should be some kind of reward in that lower-end content and I guess you can connect that to the overall "path of improvement" design.
    Fair enough.
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  2. #82
    The Lightbringer msdos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    Uh... In Legion (specifically at the start of Legion) how exactly did you get your Legion legendary? Was it not a RANDOM drop?
    I said MORE random. That's the whole point of my post. Things got worse, the exact opposite of what I was thinking was going to happen in Legion. Things got even more random. Some random is fine, since you know, that's kinda how the gear drops are since day 1 of WoW, within reason, because we still had actual loot tables.

    It doesn't matter if the Legendaries were random at first in Legion because they dropped off of all content. You could literally get one out of a Blingtron 3000. It opened up the entire game to you basically.

    The Shadowlands legendaries are a 50% nerfed version of the Legion ones. They do NOT open up the game for you, they keep you inside Torghast. It's not even comparable, you're comparing them just for the sake of a disagreement, not only that, things still got worse and are getting worse, you know, the point of my post.

  3. #83
    Herald of the Titans Alroxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msdos View Post
    I said MORE random. That's the whole point of my post. Things got worse,
    Did they though? The removal of TF/WF means that we can revert back to BiS list. It's a bit more deterministic that if you're looking for a high haste + vers armor piece then you are only interested in loot from XYZ sources. (see link for Amani's SL loot spreadsheet).

    There's always going to be a RNG element in WoW, but honestly it seems less onerous than Legion or BFA.

    People always have rose-tinted glasses about past expansions and Legion (or BFA) also had their excessive problems. Just to list a few:

    Legion - Stupid AP grind for the first iteration of the "infinite trait"
    Legion - Later on the Netherlight Crucible system: Not only did you want a High ilv relic but you wanted one with the right 1st and 2nd traits.
    BFA - More AP grind upon launch where getting higher ilv Azerite pieces meant that you couldn't use all the rings because you had not yet raised your Heart level up.
    BFA - Corruption stacking to the point of breaking game system.


    No the problem with Shadowlands is that there's plenty of content to do BUT players aren't enticed to do them. There's no instant-reward that justifies the effort they have to put in.
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  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    The major differrence between the design philosophies of Legion and SL is the existence of WF/TFing. This was not good for the game. Excuse me for cutting through your attempts at feigned pragmatism to address the actual topic you wanted to discuss.
    Not at all. Your throwing misplaced assumptions at me. You assume I like TF/WFing, which I don't (not that my opinion should matter in this thread). And you assume that I want to discuss TF/WFing which I also don't. Sorry to disappoint you. I know you like a good discussion my friend

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudmaker View Post
    Good players and bad players, the case is rather subjective. Good in a sense of skill or gear? High Rio de Janeiro or being in a top mythic guild? This is all an illusion. There will always a "better one" who will tell you that you suck. I will agree with this: There are no good and bad players, as it's all relative. There are just people having fun playing a game on the level and in the way they are comfortable with. Good in a sense of kindness? Seems like a more interesting thing to discuss.
    Let me quote the first sentence of my OP which you clearly didn't read (it's okay ):

    "Sorry for using the terms "good" and "bad". It's just the simplest way to do it."

    To make it more tangible for you: Mythic raiders helped LFR raiders.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Not at all. Your throwing misplaced assumptions at me. You assume I like TF/WFing, which I don't (not that my opinion should matter in this thread). And you assume that I want to discuss TF/WFing which I also don't. Sorry to disappoint you. I know you like a good discussion my friend
    ...it's not an assumption. The existence of WF/TFing is the reason "good" players were incentivized to help "bad" players. This becomes even more apparent when you compare Legion with WF/TFing to SL without it. You may not have mentioned the system by name but it's plainly evident that's what this thread is about.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    ...it's not an assumption. The existence of WF/TFing is the reason "good" players were incentivized to help "bad" players. This becomes even more apparent when you compare Legion with WF/TFing to SL without it. You may not have mentioned the system by name but it's plainly evident that's what this thread is about.
    Actually no, TF/WF is certainly a way to get what he wants, but it's not the only way.
    Mats, gold, or simply entry to something someone would otherwise have to work for are other ways to get good players to help bad players with content...

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    ...it's not an assumption. The existence of WF/TFing is the reason "good" players were incentivized to help "bad" players. This becomes even more apparent when you compare Legion with WF/TFing to SL without it. You may not have mentioned the system by name but it's plainly evident that's what this thread is about.
    Then maybe I'm just stupid, because I genuinely believe that Legendaries and AP was the main reason in Legion to farm lower raid difficulties like normal and LFR. Especially if it was a previous tier. It was for me at least. I didn't expect to get any useful gear from TF when I did LFR. I mainly did it for the chance of getting another Legendary. But maybe I'm just a special case then

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Then maybe I'm just stupid, because I genuinely believe that Legendaries and AP was the main reason in Legion to farm lower difficulty like normal and LFR. It was for me at least. I didn't expect to get any useful gear from TF when I did LFR. I mainly did it for the chance of getting another Legendary. But maybe I'm just a special case then
    Legiondaries were an extension of the WF/TFing system anyway (just with BLP built into it). Overall, I think it just made the concept of loot far too unpredictable which is why Blizzard decided to move away from it. For what it's worth, I like that you're discussing ideas to incentivize "good" players to help "bad" players that aren't WF/TFing, I just don't see why you bothered to mention Legion if you didn't want to discuss its impact on the game.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    Legiondaries were an extension of the WF/TFing system anyway (just with BLP built into it). Overall, I think it just made the concept of loot far too unpredictable which is why Blizzard decided to move away from it. For what it's worth, I like that you're discussing ideas to incentivize "good" players to help "bad" players that aren't WF/TFing, I just don't see why you bothered to mention Legion if you didn't want to discuss its impact on the game.
    Actually my idea was partly to start a brain storm session about how Blizzard potentially could make raid tiers relevant throughout an entire expansion instead of making them redundant every time a new patch comes out... and if it's even a good idea. Because I'm not sure if it is or not. As an extension of this I also find the subject of incentivizing good players to do help bad players interesting... I'm not saying it's necessarily a good idea, but it's interesting. In my opinion at least. Truthfully I had kind of hoped people could look past TF/WFing in this thread to see the bigger picture. Sometimes I like to present things behind a different cover to see if people are able to keep their eyes on the ball.

    I also think it's interesting to look back at how systems like M+ originally were implemented and what Blizzard said about them back then.
    Last edited by Kaver; 2021-04-09 at 10:26 PM.

  10. #90
    You say that like it was any fun for the good players.
    Last edited by Swnem; 2021-04-09 at 10:37 PM.

  11. #91
    Warchief Progenitor Aquarius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Not at all. Your throwing misplaced assumptions at me. You assume I like TF/WFing, which I don't (not that my opinion should matter in this thread). And you assume that I want to discuss TF/WFing which I also don't. Sorry to disappoint you. I know you like a good discussion my friend

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    Let me quote the first sentence of my OP which you clearly didn't read (it's okay ):

    "Sorry for using the terms "good" and "bad". It's just the simplest way to do it."

    To make it more tangible for you: Mythic raiders helped LFR raiders.
    This I actually did read. I did also read that you don't like help people if you are not getting anything from it. That's fine by me. Considering yourself a good player is also like putting a stop to your self-development. Don't you think? Advertising can be annoying, but boosting is kind of good way to make money in game. Though I must admit, I sometimes like to help people out of no profit, sometimes I just don’t. That depends how from my mood. I understand where you are coming from, but I am not so sure if any reward system would stop people from doing boost runs.
    Last edited by Progenitor Aquarius; 2021-04-10 at 12:04 AM.

  12. #92
    I hated Legion's system of "you must grind boring easy content for a tiny tiny chance at a lengendary". It was fucking annoying. And then when the legendary actually dropped.......SURPRISE, it's one of the "bad" legendaries and it goes straight into the bank and you feel like the two weeks of grinding were a complete waste of time.

    It was one of the big reasons why I quit in Legion.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    Why are you trying to dictate what fun is for others? This is always the problem with the "good vs bad" players discussion.

    Why is your definition of fun acceptable and his isnt? I really do not understand this argument.

    Why is your low skilled gameplay fun, but his "I like playing better and improving" gameplay not fun?

    Why is your time more relevant than his?

    You do realize a +15 on shitty alts with 100 deaths and 50mins over the timer is more fun, than a +8 pug with your type of players right?

    This is why no one takes you guys seriously and most of the "Better players" have given up on trying to help anyone, you simply are not worth the time spent, it is not fun gameplay for us, you prefer to complain and whine than actually listening.

    And no, a "bad player" cant be helped to become a "good player", its a personality trait, some people have the mentality and the intelligence to improve, and some others, believe the earth is flat.
    Lines are not always black and white.

    It’s not “key timed gg” or “key failed by 30 minutes bg”.

    I would say that a good 75% of my non timed keys are under 10 minutes from the expired time and 90% of those 75% are par + less than 5 minutes.

    Failing the timer for max 5 minutes is not being bad at all, if you are playing in pugs with ppl you don’t know.

    I of course had my and will have my facepalm runs, but they are not the standard type of fails.
    Last edited by chiddie; 2021-04-10 at 11:10 AM.

  14. #94
    Legion was designed to make us spend more time on the content we didn't want to do because it had a slightly better chance of BIS Legendary to drop

    Fixed that for you.

  15. #95
    The Lightbringer
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    I remember that shit before people invented IO as a way to sell boosts to idiots. Now there's a generation of kids who bought it and parrot that it's so good and important that other morons buy boosts themselves. It's madness. Why anyone would just choose to do something harder than necessary for loot is baffling.
    Paladin Bash has spoken.

  16. #96
    the satchel in wod was there to get good players to help bad ones as well.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by PaladinBash View Post
    I remember that shit before people invented IO as a way to sell boosts to idiots. Now there's a generation of kids who bought it and parrot that it's so good and important that other morons buy boosts themselves. It's madness. Why anyone would just choose to do something harder than necessary for loot is baffling.
    the current game model is:

    1. roll a fire mage.
    2. sell m+ boosts for gold.
    3. turn around and use a little of that gold to buy boosts for alts.

    social interaction is out the window. its all transactional.
    TO FIX WOW:1. smaller server sizes & server-only LFG awarding satchels, so elite players help others. 2. "helper builds" with loom powers - talent trees so elite players cast buffs on low level players XP gain, HP/mana, regen, damage, etc. 3. "helper ilvl" scoring how much you help others. 4. observer games like in SC to watch/chat (like twitch but with MORE DETAILS & inside the wow UI) 5. guild leagues to compete with rival guilds for progression (with observer mode).6. jackpot world mobs.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    People call it "toxicity" because it's usually not constructive, and often just wrong.
    I think you're just straight up missing the point.

    This isn't about pushing keys, this is about having some rewards relevant to high end raiders in very low content (such as LFR or LFD) and then the drama that ensues from these two players groups suddenly landing in the same party.
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    It's also funny when people invite an 800 IO tank and start shitting on them for... playing like an 800 io tank. If you're 1300 and playing with someone at 800, don't expect them to magically become a 1300 level player.
    In other words - the theory that some are actually good but don't have the IO to show it is actually false.

    Thanks to highlighting things that some people love to ignore.

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    In other words - the theory that some are actually good but don't have the IO to show it is actually false.

    Thanks to highlighting things that some people love to ignore.
    I was raiding the other day and we had 5 hunters. We asked them to keep the shades cc'ed on huntsman. They just couldn't do it. Half the time, 1 shade just was left free. Or a hunter would shoot a shade and break it loose. In other words, mechanics can tell you a lot.
    TO FIX WOW:1. smaller server sizes & server-only LFG awarding satchels, so elite players help others. 2. "helper builds" with loom powers - talent trees so elite players cast buffs on low level players XP gain, HP/mana, regen, damage, etc. 3. "helper ilvl" scoring how much you help others. 4. observer games like in SC to watch/chat (like twitch but with MORE DETAILS & inside the wow UI) 5. guild leagues to compete with rival guilds for progression (with observer mode).6. jackpot world mobs.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by sykretts View Post
    Do you have any explanation or sound reasoning for why there shouldn't be? I'd be happy to hear about it.
    Cuz its the literal breeding ground for toxicity, good players that value time and effort get trowing into the shithole that is lfr/normal and hc raiding were ppl cant play thier characters to even 50% (green-blue log animals)
    Its like beeing forced to play football in a mental asylum for big "Money" (legendarys) no one liked that in my WR 20-40 range (and ppl know each other on highend of the lader and talk/play together alot (atlast on EU) and everyone complained about Legion.

    i dont mind Lazy bads but dont force me to play with them pls, corner them together into lfr/normal and let them rot there.
    Last edited by Feral Druid ist Op; 2021-04-10 at 02:11 PM.
    I.O BFA Season 3


  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Resheph View Post
    There are no good and bad players, as it's all relative. There's just people having fun playing a game on the level and in the way they are comfortable with.
    This makes no sense. If they are playing at their own comfort level then consequently they are playing at different levels, hence some being better than others. I just can't understand why some people are so meek and PC they can't even admit to basic observations of reality like some people being better at games than others. It has nothing to do with fun.

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