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  1. #1301
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    So everyone is carrying everyone else, who is getting carried? You seem pretty confused....
    Nope. You just fancy yourself more clever than you actually are.

  2. #1302
    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Wu View Post
    This concept works in literally every game ever and people like you need to deal with the fact that multi-player games just have a set level of toxicity to them due to human nature. If you can't cope with that then maybe relaxing singleplayer games are more your speed.
    Except that is straight false. Its not only not "every" game but actually "barely any" game.

    Multiplayer games with loot like fortnite, pubg = false
    Multiplayer shooter games like csgo = false
    ARPGs = false (there are exceptions here)
    Mobas = false
    GTA like games = false
    Single player games = false

    And even in oldschool mmos gear was simply tradable which made that argument completely irrelevant as money could buy you power - as it rightfully should.
    Ship has been abandoned.
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  3. #1303
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    And even in oldschool mmos gear was simply tradable which made that argument completely irrelevant as money could buy you power - as it rightfully should.
    Partly why I'm enjoying P99 EverQuest right now. Aside from the fact that it's free and it's the only game my computer can really handle atm, there's the fact that a large portion of player power is tradable and available to everyone with enough grit and hard work*.

    *debatable as what's really hard about sitting at a static spawn for hours straight and doing other things in between? I'm cleaning my house in between hill giant spawns right now lols.
    Last edited by Tadkins; 2021-04-09 at 11:16 PM.

  4. #1304
    Quote Originally Posted by Tadkins View Post
    I saw you guys suggesting all sorts of pretty fluff on gear for us "casuals" but I knew the moment I suggested some actual, tangible benefit that it would be rejected, lol.
    We have suggested multiple systems that would make you far more powerful in your chosen pursuit (when you are actually playing the expansion, unlike SL which you haven't actually played yet, correct?)- open world solo play. These systems would give you really strong benefits when playing this way, even over raiders and pvpers.

    You keep focusing on pvp and saying there is no progression there - you have been told countless times this is incorrect. You play the game, get the honor, spend the honor on pvp gear, which makes you stronger.........in pvp.

    You are instantly dismissing all suggestion that do not equal exceedingly powerful gear from solo content. You can already EASILY obtain normal mode equivalent gear, something that has never been the case in wows history before, and you reject this as not good enough.

    The real issue is, you are flatout refusing to have an open discussion, and are actively avoiding any reply that doesn't fit your narrative - looking through this thread i see you constantly skip over a dozen or more replies, until someone sorta kinda maybe agrees with you, and then you engage with them. Behaving like this eliminates any opportunity for an open and honest discussion about your concerns, as seeking out an echo chamber as you are does NOT help your argument.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    In no way are you entitled to the 'complete' game when you buy it, because DLC/cosmetics and so on are there for companies to make more money
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Others, including myself, are saying that they only exist because Blizzard needed to create things so they could monetize it.

  5. #1305
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    We have suggested multiple systems that would make you far more powerful in your chosen pursuit (when you are actually playing the expansion, unlike SL which you haven't actually played yet, correct?)- open world solo play. These systems would give you really strong benefits when playing this way, even over raiders and pvpers.

    You keep focusing on pvp and saying there is no progression there - you have been told countless times this is incorrect. You play the game, get the honor, spend the honor on pvp gear, which makes you stronger.........in pvp.

    You are instantly dismissing all suggestion that do not equal exceedingly powerful gear from solo content. You can already EASILY obtain normal mode equivalent gear, something that has never been the case in wows history before, and you reject this as not good enough.

    The real issue is, you are flatout refusing to have an open discussion, and are actively avoiding any reply that doesn't fit your narrative - looking through this thread i see you constantly skip over a dozen or more replies, until someone sorta kinda maybe agrees with you, and then you engage with them. Behaving like this eliminates any opportunity for an open and honest discussion about your concerns, as seeking out an echo chamber as you are does NOT help your argument.
    I am only addressing you right now because a friend recommended I do so on this point alone.

    Have you considered the fact that maybe I am not talking to certain people because I don't want to speak with folks who gleefully throw around toxicity and insults? I had you on ignore for that reason. I wouldn't be surprised if you've been trying to do it throughout this entire thread. I am perfectly willing to have a civil debate with someone. You're ignoring the backs and forths I've had with some folks that aren't on my side, but aren't being bullies about it. I don't need any more toxicity and abuse in my life and so I will make use of the ignore function. Even at the risk of creating an "echo chamber" (which is untrue as I just said), it's far more preferable than being talked down to and called names all day.

    As to your point, imagine if someone stuck to nothing but heroic dungeons all day. That was what they liked, that was what they were comfortable with, and they acquired a gear level that was appropriate for that content. Now imagine if queued heroic dungeons randomly featured bosses from other difficulties. First boss is at heroic level, second boss ends up being the M0 version, with the third boss being a heroic one again, finally ending with the 4th boss being its tyrannical +15 version.

    Would you call that fair? That is essentially what it is like in PvP right now. I as a solo queue random BGer do not get a choice in who to fight and the game does not care that my gear level can't fight a mythic raider or +15 keystone master. The gear I am given is not good enough for that, yet I am facing those challenges anyway.

    Your next response will determine whether we can continue the discussion in a civil manner between you and I.

  6. #1306
    Quote Originally Posted by Tadkins View Post
    I am only addressing you right now because a friend recommended I do so on this point alone.

    Have you considered the fact that maybe I am not talking to certain people because I don't want to speak with folks who gleefully throw around toxicity and insults? I had you on ignore for that reason. I wouldn't be surprised if you've been trying to do it throughout this entire thread. I am perfectly willing to have a civil debate with someone. You're ignoring the backs and forths I've had with some folks that aren't on my side, but aren't being bullies about it. I don't need any more toxicity and abuse in my life and so I will make use of the ignore function. Even at the risk of creating an "echo chamber" (which is untrue as I just said), it's far more preferable than being talked down to and called names all day.

    As to your point, imagine if someone stuck to nothing but heroic dungeons all day. That was what they liked, that was what they were comfortable with, and they acquired a gear level that was appropriate for that content. Now imagine if queued heroic dungeons randomly featured bosses from other difficulties. First boss is at heroic level, second boss ends up being the M0 version, with the third boss being a heroic one again, finally ending with the 4th boss being its tyrannical +15 version.

    Would you call that fair? That is essentially what it is like in PvP right now. I as a solo queue random BGer do not get a choice in who to fight and the game does not care that my gear level can't fight a mythic raider or +15 keystone master. The gear I am given is not good enough for that, yet I am facing those challenges anyway.

    Your next response will determine whether we can continue the discussion in a civil manner between you and I.
    You want to casually queue and automatically have an upper hand against everybody. Including those that do the most difficult content. Its not gonna happen. You're mistemembering the past. Even in other xpacs, super pve heroes shit all over random bgers. Rated pvpers always beat casual pvpers

  7. #1307
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    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    You want to casually queue and automatically have an upper hand against everybody. Including those that do the most difficult content. Its not gonna happen. You're mistemembering the past. Even in other xpacs, super pve heroes shit all over random bgers. Rated pvpers always beat casual pvpers
    Uh... how is segregation of players into different BG brackets based on ilvl giving people an advantage? Are you just mad because segregation of PVP by ilvl would not let you and other geared people easily beat "casual nubs"?
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    Ok, I give up. This is pointless.
    Many Multitudes Online Constantly Harping About Minor Problems
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  8. #1308
    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom View Post
    Uh... how is segregation of players into different BG brackets based on ilvl giving people an advantage? Are you just mad because segregation of PVP by ilvl would not let you and other geared people easily beat "casual nubs"?
    Wouldn't even have to segregate the BGs either. Templates would be fine too.

    I don't mind losing when it comes to skill, or if they happen to muster more numbers at the time. It's just disheartening when you're dying constantly with no hope of fighting back because they happen to have better gear.

  9. #1309
    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom View Post
    Uh... how is segregation of players into different BG brackets based on ilvl giving people an advantage? Are you just mad because segregation of PVP by ilvl would not let you and other geared people easily beat "casual nubs"?
    It would be fine with me, as long as horde are ok with 1hr+ queues

  10. #1310
    Quote Originally Posted by Tadkins View Post
    Wouldn't even have to segregate the BGs either. Templates would be fine too.

    I don't mind losing when it comes to skill, or if they happen to muster more numbers at the time. It's just disheartening when you're dying constantly with no hope of fighting back because they happen to have better gear.
    They don't just "happen" to have better gear - they played the game and earned that gear - and you could do exactly the same.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    In no way are you entitled to the 'complete' game when you buy it, because DLC/cosmetics and so on are there for companies to make more money
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Others, including myself, are saying that they only exist because Blizzard needed to create things so they could monetize it.

  11. #1311
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    They don't just "happen" to have better gear - they played the game and earned that gear
    So they're justified in making the gaming experiences of others miserable?

    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    and you could do exactly the same.
    I can't though. I don't have the right skills, don't have the right connections, not strong enough socially and mentally... it's all hopeless.

  12. #1312
    Quote Originally Posted by Tadkins View Post
    So they're justified in making the gaming experiences of others miserable?


    I can't though. I don't have the right skills, don't have the right connections, not strong enough socially and mentally... it's all hopeless.
    No, you CAN, but are unwilling to. The irony of this entire discussion is that Blizzard have systems in place to help players like yourself, to keep them from constantly encountering superior players - rated content. You have said before that you could never make it to 1800 - and I have great news for you! Since you will be rated far below 1800, you are unlikely to encounter many if any players who are 1800+. The game has systems to help you, and you refuse to take advantage of them, and instead want the game changed to suit your very unique personal situation.

    You are openly asking for gear that far exceeds your skill level to compensate for your lack of ability, and I'm sorry, but that is not how any of this works. They will and do give you some help with TIME, such as catch-up mechanics, but they cannot gift gear to compensate for low skill play.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    In no way are you entitled to the 'complete' game when you buy it, because DLC/cosmetics and so on are there for companies to make more money
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Others, including myself, are saying that they only exist because Blizzard needed to create things so they could monetize it.

  13. #1313
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    No, you CAN, but are unwilling to. The irony of this entire discussion is that Blizzard have systems in place to help players like yourself, to keep them from constantly encountering superior players - rated content. You have said before that you could never make it to 1800 - and I have great news for you! Since you will be rated far below 1800, you are unlikely to encounter many if any players who are 1800+. The game has systems to help you, and you refuse to take advantage of them, and instead want the game changed to suit your very unique personal situation.

    You are openly asking for gear that far exceeds your skill level to compensate for your lack of ability, and I'm sorry, but that is not how any of this works. They will and do give you some help with TIME, such as catch-up mechanics, but they cannot gift gear to compensate for low skill play.
    There is a difference between being unwilling to and not having the confidence and fortitude. I want to do that content, I'm just terrified of messing up in front of people and being yelled at. I'm terrified of signing up for a pug, not knowing whether they'll be cool people or toxic ragers. I'm genuinely scared of making mistakes and losing a few games and getting yelled at. And yes if Skirmishes taught me anything I am probably going to spend an entire night doing nothing but losing. Who is going to put up with that especially when arenas don't award anything for losing?

    I'm not asking for anything more than what we had before, the ability to earn conquest gear on our own at a slow trickle.

  14. #1314
    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Wu View Post
    This concept works in literally every game ever and people like you need to deal with the fact that multi-player games just have a set level of toxicity to them due to human nature. If you can't cope with that then maybe relaxing singleplayer games are more your speed.
    That's a straight up lie. We can even look to games in the same genre to disprove it. FFXIV has barely any toxicity at all, not in game and not on forums. SWTOR, ESO are also pretty chill places.

    WoW is the exception. WoW has more toxicity per capita than all the other MMORPGs combined.

  15. #1315
    Quote Originally Posted by Tadkins View Post
    There is a difference between being unwilling to and not having the confidence and fortitude. I want to do that content, I'm just terrified of messing up in front of people and being yelled at. I'm terrified of signing up for a pug, not knowing whether they'll be cool people or toxic ragers. I'm genuinely scared of making mistakes and losing a few games and getting yelled at. And yes if Skirmishes taught me anything I am probably going to spend an entire night doing nothing but losing. Who is going to put up with that especially when arenas don't award anything for losing?

    I'm not asking for anything more than what we had before, the ability to earn conquest gear on our own at a slow trickle.
    How do you know that the honor gear is not good enough for this purpose? Since you do not play SL, and literally never have, you have zero experience. I do have experience in SL, and am telling you that the gear you have access to is equivalent to the old gear you had access to. I am also telling you that casual / solo players have access to gear more powerful in comparison to group content gear than any other first tier in wows history.

    You keep saying things used to be better because you could spend months farming gear, but ignore the fact that you still started in the exact same position as you do now. This hasn't changed - you still faced higher geared players, geared from either pve or pvp. You would still have been thumped just as hard then as now (as you wrongly assume you will be). You talk about resilience, while ignoring two key facts - the geared player you were facing still had twice the resil you did, so yet again, nothing has changed. And lastly, pvp gear has heavy weights of vers on it, for a similar result to resil.

    Nothing has changed, you havnt even played the game to back up your stance at all, and you completely ignore all the people saying "you are wrong, you will be fine, it's the same it always was - just play the game and you'll see"
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    In no way are you entitled to the 'complete' game when you buy it, because DLC/cosmetics and so on are there for companies to make more money
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Others, including myself, are saying that they only exist because Blizzard needed to create things so they could monetize it.

  16. #1316
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    How do you know that the honor gear is not good enough for this purpose? Since you do not play SL, and literally never have, you have zero experience. I do have experience in SL, and am telling you that the gear you have access to is equivalent to the old gear you had access to. I am also telling you that casual / solo players have access to gear more powerful in comparison to group content gear than any other first tier in wows history.

    You keep saying things used to be better because you could spend months farming gear, but ignore the fact that you still started in the exact same position as you do now. This hasn't changed - you still faced higher geared players, geared from either pve or pvp. You would still have been thumped just as hard then as now (as you wrongly assume you will be). You talk about resilience, while ignoring two key facts - the geared player you were facing still had twice the resil you did, so yet again, nothing has changed. And lastly, pvp gear has heavy weights of vers on it, for a similar result to resil.

    Nothing has changed, you havnt even played the game to back up your stance at all, and you completely ignore all the people saying "you are wrong, you will be fine, it's the same it always was - just play the game and you'll see"
    Going by sheer numbers there. I did play not too long ago and I know how ilvls work.

    BfA I could earn a set of 460 gear on my own. The highest available was 475 given to 15 key runners and mythic raiders. A 460 player vs a 475 player did not have that big of a disadvantage, generally speaking.

    Not only in SL do you have smaller ilvls, but you have a bigger gap. Be honest, how much of a chance is a 200 player *really* going to have against a 226 player?

  17. #1317
    Quote Originally Posted by Tadkins View Post
    Going by sheer numbers there. I did play not too long ago and I know how ilvls work.

    BfA I could earn a set of 460 gear on my own. The highest available was 475 given to 15 key runners and mythic raiders. A 460 player vs a 475 player did not have that big of a disadvantage, generally speaking.

    Not only in SL do you have smaller ilvls, but you have a bigger gap. Be honest, how much of a chance is a 200 player *really* going to have against a 226 player?
    That ENTIRELY depends on how they play - the game is NOT balanced around 1v1, as i have mentioned multiple times before, so your "who would win in a fight, batman or wolverine" question is entirely irreverent. This is a TEAM game - you play bgs with a team - stick with them, play correctly, fight on nodes and follow instruction - you'll be absolutely fine, just like the tens of thousands of other players playing the same game I am. And you mysteriously ignore the reality that both teams are equally as likely to have these mysterious bis 226 players, so as it is a TEAM activity, the playing field is level.

    You also only present literally the most extreme example you possibly can - you always only say "200 vs 226" you never say "207 vs 212" or anything in between - its always these mysterious bis max ilvl gods who apparently queue in entire teams, avoid the premade barrier, and run around stomping people in random bgs. As i have said multiple times - the scenarios you constantly present - the arguments you have hidden behind for 50 pages - they are NOT based in reality - and you would know this if you had actually played SL.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    In no way are you entitled to the 'complete' game when you buy it, because DLC/cosmetics and so on are there for companies to make more money
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Others, including myself, are saying that they only exist because Blizzard needed to create things so they could monetize it.

  18. #1318
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    That ENTIRELY depends on how they play - the game is NOT balanced around 1v1, as i have mentioned multiple times before, so your "who would win in a fight, batman or wolverine" question is entirely irreverent. This is a TEAM game - you play bgs with a team - stick with them, play correctly, fight on nodes and follow instruction - you'll be absolutely fine, just like the tens of thousands of other players playing the same game I am.

    You also only present literally the most extreme example you possibly can - you always only say "200 vs 226" you never say "207 vs 212" or anything in between - its always these mysterious bis max ilvl gods who apparently queue in entire teams, avoid the premade barrier, and run around stomping people in random bgs. As i have said multiple times - the scenarios you constantly present - the arguments you have hidden behind for 50 pages - they are NOT based in reality - and you would know this if you had actually played SL.
    And sometimes you need to go off on your own, especially if you need to go for an achievement. Not in a single game of Silvershard have I been able to convince anyone to help with the carts achievement. Being able to survive on your own is something valued by some. Maybe not to you, but it is why I primarily played Arcane on my mage in PvP, it gave me the mobility and defenses needed to 1v1. Finding and sticking to the group the entire game like a baby to its mother is not always a fun way to play, especially when you die and can't always get back. You're in Warsong Gulch and a flag carrier is running home totally unopposed with your entire allied team fighting in the middle; do you keep fighting in the middle yourself because your entire team is there, or do you take it upon yourself to at least try to slow the flag carrier a bit and actually try to win?

    You say that those scenarios I describe don't happen; c'mon now, they can and have happened quite a bit. You're seriously going to claim that bored 226 groups aren't going to queue for randoms with their buddies just to flex a bit to us "casual randoms"? Explain why I was in games during BfA where my entire team was 300kish HP, while the entire opposing team was 400-500k or higher in some cases.
    Last edited by Tadkins; 2021-04-10 at 03:17 AM.

  19. #1319
    Warchief Freedom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    No, you CAN, but are unwilling to. The irony of this entire discussion is that Blizzard have systems in place to help players like yourself, to keep them from constantly encountering superior players - rated content. You have said before that you could never make it to 1800 - and I have great news for you! Since you will be rated far below 1800, you are unlikely to encounter many if any players who are 1800+. The game has systems to help you, and you refuse to take advantage of them, and instead want the game changed to suit your very unique personal situation.

    You are openly asking for gear that far exceeds your skill level to compensate for your lack of ability, and I'm sorry, but that is not how any of this works. They will and do give you some help with TIME, such as catch-up mechanics, but they cannot gift gear to compensate for low skill play.
    Have you not paid attention to complaints about arenas in SL? The exact numbers may be off some, but the general idea is, you can be playing at 1400 MMR in 2s and still be facing 226 ilvl, 2400+ experience and up boosters playing with lower MMR players who are paying for a carry. And as you might expect the matchup isn't very fair. I know this but I don't even play SL.
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    Ok, I give up. This is pointless.
    Many Multitudes Online Constantly Harping About Minor Problems
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  20. #1320
    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom View Post
    Have you not paid attention to complaints about arenas in SL? The exact numbers may be off some, but the general idea is, you can be playing at 1400 MMR in 2s and still be facing 226 ilvl, 2400+ experience and up boosters playing with lower MMR players who are paying for a carry. And as you might expect the matchup isn't very fair. I know this but I don't even play SL.
    I've heard much of the same, that the arena world is chock full of that sort of carrying and sales. I can't imagine how a genuine arena player, the kind that did well and spent seasons genuinely pushing for ratings and titles, is having fun in this game right now.

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