Why skilled player got so mad about casual getting better loot?

[LordTakeo]

Isn't this like the 5th thread like this the last two weeks?

Tl;dr - Nothing stops you from getting good gear aside yourself.
Being powerful is a reward in of itself, for how much time and effort you put into getting there.
And lastly...
Everyone and their mother complained about gear feeling worthless cause titanforging, and M+ dropping above hc raid gear. Now they made gear rare and valuable again, but people now complain that they don't get their equal attention cake.

You can't make everyone happy, people will always find something to complain about, cause the error is never in the player.

[Tadkins]

The high end community don't want something for everyone. They want everything for themselves and nothing for everyone else. Thankfully there are better MMORPGs out there that does the RPG part much better and caters to the majority instead the vocal toxic minority. I doubt WoW and its community will ever change so it's probably best to do what so many others have already done, leave.

I'll argue that the truly high end probably couldn't care less. It's the wannabes below them who try to make up for their lack of status with toxicity and elitism.

But yeah, I've just lost complete interest in playing WoW anymore. Let Ion, Kotick, and their fanbase have their dream game. I just honestly, genuinely, can't bring myself to endure this anymore. Might give FFXIV a look when my computer is fixed, otherwise I really am having far more fun playing P99 EQ these days, lol.

Maybe wherever the old Blizzard guard went will produce something promising in the future.

[LordTakeo]

I'll argue that the truly high end probably couldn't care less. It's the wannabes below them who try to make up for their lack of status with toxicity and elitism.

But yeah, I've just lost complete interest in playing WoW anymore. Let Ion and Kotick have their dream game. I just honestly, genuinely, can't bring myself to endure this anymore. Might give FFXIV a look when my computer is fixed, otherwise I really am having far more fun playing P99 EQ these days, lol.

I hope you find fun in FF14. Just beware though, endgame is a pretty harsh slowburner. Imagine castle nathria being split into 3 parts, and fed over months as 3 raids. Got cool boss music tho.
Also, normal raids are basically lfr here. Try savage ones instead.
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The high end community don't want something for everyone. They want everything for themselves and nothing for everyone else. Thankfully there are better MMORPGs out there that does the RPG part much better and caters to the majority instead the vocal toxic minority. I doubt WoW and its community will ever change so it's probably best to do what so many others have already done, leave.

Imagine letting this invisible toxic elite living rent free in your head...
Not saying there aren't some idiots, it's an MMO after all, but it's insane how often people complain without ever having tried to play in a guild, or make friends to do content with.

Not saying you didn't, but it's a common observation lately.

[Tadkins]

I hope you find fun in FF14. Just beware though, endgame is a pretty harsh slowburner. Imagine castle nathria being split into 3 parts, and fed over months as 3 raids. Got cool boss music tho.

For sure, even when I had no interest in FFXIV I knew of some of their tracks. They have some pretty epic music.

Imagine letting this invisible toxic elite living rent free in your head...
Not saying there aren't some idiots, it's an MMO after all, but it's insane how often people complain without ever having tried to play in a guild, or make friends to do content with.

Not saying you didn't, but it's a common observation lately.

Have you considered that some of us might have tried to find guilds/friends in this game, and it's not as easy as you might think? It is tough to break into existing cliques these days and finding a good, inclusive community is definitely not easy. I've been trying for months. This community is not overall welcoming to folks who aren't standout players.

[LordTakeo]

For sure, even when I had no interest in FFXIV I knew of some of their tracks. They have some pretty epic music.



Have you considered that some of us might have tried to find guilds/friends in this game, and it's not as easy as you might think? It is tough to break into existing cliques these days and finding a good, inclusive community is definitely not easy. I've been trying for months. This community is not overall welcoming to folks who aren't standout players.

I mean.. If you're playing alliance, I'm currently gearing up a pally tank.
And I disagree, i've been part of a few academy runs by now. Aka, people who teach pugs how to do heroic. It's usually a fun time.
Although pugs are infinitely harder to find decent human beings, I got alot of bnet friends from there, who saw me perform on my ele.

I can sadly only speaking from my viewpoint, and I can easily imagine people being frustrated cause of steady declines or some nutjobs wanting to be carried. But those are for me, usually the exception, that I tell my friends about during the next raid.

[Tadkins]

I mean.. If you're playing alliance, I'm currently gearing up a pally tank.
And I disagree, i've been part of a few academy runs by now. Aka, people who teach pugs how to do heroic. It's usually a fun time.
Although pugs are infinitely harder to find decent human beings, I got alot of bnet friends from there, who saw me perform on my ele.

I can sadly only speaking from my viewpoint, and I can easily imagine people being frustrated cause of steady declines or some nutjobs wanting to be carried. But those are for me, usually the exception, that I tell my friends about during the next raid.

My intent when/if I came back was to take my Horde mage and make him Alliance, and transfer to Moon Guard. I really wanted to be a void elf. I also understood that it would be even harder to find a community in that route but I was planning on taking my chances.

I was never looking to be carried, I only wanted to find a group to learn content with, that won't rage at a person or deny invites while learning and making mistakes.

[Echocho]

I'll argue that the truly high end probably couldn't care less. It's the wannabes below them who try to make up for their lack of status with toxicity and elitism.

But yeah, I've just lost complete interest in playing WoW anymore. Let Ion, Kotick, and their fanbase have their dream game. I just honestly, genuinely, can't bring myself to endure this anymore. Might give FFXIV a look when my computer is fixed, otherwise I really am having far more fun playing P99 EQ these days, lol.

Maybe wherever the old Blizzard guard went will produce something promising in the future.

Since you seem to like random battlegrounds I think that you would enjoy ESO more. FFXIV is more of a PVE game (PvP exists but nobody cares) modelled after WotLk with badge gear and weekly capped badges.

[LordTakeo]

My intent when/if I came back was to take my Horde mage and make him Alliance, and transfer to Moon Guard. I really wanted to be a void elf. I also understood that it would be even harder to find a community in that route but I was planning on taking my chances.

I was never looking to be carried, I only wanted to find a group to learn content with, that won't rage at a person or deny invites while learning and making mistakes.

Argent Dawn EU here. Rp servers are funnily enough pretty comfortable and populated.

I'd offer to help, but I think US servers can't interact with EU. :/
What if people rallied a guild for such content and players here on MMO champion? Similar to how Savix started up his PvP Guild SoloQ with some other PvP'ers? As in, a community guild, that helps out and is there to connect likeminded people, not a free carry.

I think guilds would be the prime way to stop this horror show of toxic pugs.

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Since you seem to like random battlegrounds I think that you would enjoy ESO more. FFXIV is more of a PVE game (PvP exists but nobody cares) modelled after WotLk with badge gear and weekly capped badges.

Can confirm, ESO is way better in terms of PvP than FF14.

[Mystikal]

Gear is simply part of the reward structure. Blizzard has a few things to reward you with, they have gear, transmog, mounts, pets and titles.
Usually gear is the most tempting one, and I don't think it's because you "stomp noobs" but because you progress your character. Suddenly that world quest feels easier, you are stronger compared to that one boss that gave you trouble 3 weeks back etc. Single player RPGs also use this system, you gear up and find better weapons in most games.

Transmog mounts pets and titles are harder to get right as rewards, just taking myself here but I play with titles turned off, I don't like the clutter, and because of that I have no idea what the nice titles are. Mounts pets and transmog all suffer from a different problem, they are very subjective, some people find certain mounts amazing, while others wouldn't ride them to save their lives. Transmog is in the same boat, look at any thread when they release new gear sets, you will, most of the time see both people saying "They finally designed a good set for my class!" and people saying "This is the worst set ever for my class!" While talking about the same gear.

This is why gear is such a good reward, if you do 1% more damage with your new pants, you do 1% more damage, nothing subjective here, 50 is always more than 49.

Giving out gear too fast however makes the game boring because you reach that level of "Ok, I'm 90% of the way to maxed out, took me a week, no way I'm spending 15 weeks to gain the last 10%" Look at Diablo3 as an example, it absolutely showers you in gear, day2 you will be close to greater rift 100, but to reach greater rift 130 or so you'll need to put in several weeks of grinding.

I think wow is fair in the way it hands out gear, if you are a very good player, you will get your 226 gear fast, if you are medium you will get there but a bit slower, if you are on the lower end of the scale you might not reach 226, but if you do your best, you could reach 220 at least, most of the way there.

I agree with most of your points, except the rate of gearing in SL. It's a little better now with the changes but, for the first few months, unless you were very lucky, you were generally gearing only through your vault, and even then you could be shafted by duplicates quite easily.

I love that you understand why gear is important, though. Blizzard has gone on record many, many times saying that they want ALL players to be able to progress their characters. That 'progress' comes in the form of power. As you say, if a world quest takes a few minutes less to complete, that's still satisfying and is going to keep those players coming back for more next week.

Unfortunately, a lot of elitist players hold non-raiders in such disdain, that they don't believe that those players should be able to progress. Imagine how barren the game would be if those elitists had their way - multitudes of casuals quitting the expac a few weeks in, because they've reached the pinnacle of gearing that the top-end raiders think they 'deserve', and there's no way to progress their characters.

No, transmog, titles, pets and mounts are not 'progressing your character's power' which, I say again, Blizzard has gone on record many times saying that ALL characters should be able to do.

I think a large part of the problem here is mob scaling. Currently, your character's ability to 'overpower' the world doesn't kick in until about ilvl 215+. Until then, the mobs pretty much scale at the same level as your character. I know a lot of people are saying "WQs and callings give 197 / 203!" but, if you're decked out in those, those mobs still take just as long to kill as they did before. Perhaps, if Blizzard adjusted the mob scaling, it wouldn't be necessary for the truly casual to seek out more than LFR & WQ rewards in order not to feel weak. However, we know from the past that, without mob scaling, new zones in the game are either ridiculously easy for those in raid gear from the previous tier, or brutally unsoloable for those without.

[LordTakeo]

I agree with most of your points, except the rate of gearing in SL. It's a little better now with the changes but, for the first few months, unless you were very lucky, you were generally gearing only through your vault, and even then you could be shafted by duplicates quite easily.

I love that you understand why gear is important, though. Blizzard has gone on record many, many times saying that they want ALL players to be able to progress their characters. That 'progress' comes in the form of power. As you say, if a world quest takes a few minutes less to complete, that's still satisfying and is going to keep those players coming back for more next week.

Unfortunately, a lot of elitist players hold non-raiders in such disdain, that they don't believe that those players should be able to progress. Imagine how barren the game would be if those elitists had their way - multitudes of casuals quitting the expac a few weeks in, because they've reached the pinnacle of gearing that the top-end raiders think they 'deserve', and there's no way to progress their characters.

No, transmog, titles, pets and mounts are not 'progressing your character's power' which, I say again, Blizzard has gone on record many times saying that ALL characters should be able to do.

I think a large part of the problem here is mob scaling. Currently, your character's ability to 'overpower' the world doesn't kick in until about ilvl 215+. Until then, the mobs pretty much scale at the same level as your character. I know a lot of people are saying "WQs and callings give 197 / 203!" but, if you're decked out in those, those mobs still take just as long to kill as they did before. Perhaps, if Blizzard adjusted the mob scaling, it wouldn't be necessary for the truly casual to seek out more than LFR & WQ rewards in order not to feel weak. However, we know from the past that, without mob scaling, new zones in the game are either ridiculously easy for those in raid gear from the previous tier, or brutally unsoloable for those without.

On the point of "Blizzard stating things". You do know, that that's rather a point against you, as Blizzard barely knows what they want themselves. They've been thrashed since WoD for bizzare and weird design choices, and you bring THEM up to represent your point?
Not that I disagree with you, Casuals should have a way to progress aswell, even if it's slower than the other content paths. Valor could be that "thing", although it needs refinement on how it's used.

But on the second part, I flat-out disagree. I stomp elites on my shaman, my pally, and my priest without even thinking too much about it, and they're all hovering around 200~ with my Shaman being 219.
I destroy elites in the time frame that I used to take out normal mobs in blues. The gear -does- feel significant from 160 ish to 200 ish. As a cloth wearer, I can masspull and deal with a WQ then and there. Stuff that would have killed me, or took ages to do back in blues.

[Mystikal]

On the point of "Blizzard stating things". You do know, that that's rather a point against you, as Blizzard barely knows what they want themselves. They've been thrashed since WoD for bizzare and weird design choices, and you bring THEM up to represent your point?
Not that I disagree with you, Casuals should have a way to progress aswell, even if it's slower than the other content paths. Valor could be that "thing", although it needs refinement on how it's used.

But on the second part, I flat-out disagree. I stomp elites on my shaman, my pally, and my priest without even thinking too much about it, and they're all hovering around 200~ with my Shaman being 219.
I destroy elites in the time frame that I used to take out normal mobs in blues. The gear -does- feel significant from 160 ish to 200 ish. As a cloth wearer, I can masspull and deal with a WQ then and there. Stuff that would have killed me, or took ages to do back in blues.

Whilst I think that I do understand the point you're making, I believe that this is a little different. Firstly, Blizzard have been pretty consistent on the power progression since about MoP, they haven't flip-flopped on it (which, I believe, is your earlier point). Secondly, power progression isn't a 'strange' or 'weird' design choice, it's a staple of many games, especially RPGs. I can't quite decide if you're actually advocating that WoW should be different in that regard, or not.

As to your second point, I think that speaks more to disparity in class design and their own scaling, rather than the world scaling itself being 'ok'. I've read other threads where the world is still an issue for some specs. On that point, I think we will have to agree to disagree.

[LordTakeo]

.
As to your second point, I think that speaks more to disparity in class design and their own scaling, rather than the world scaling itself being 'ok'. I've read other threads where the world is still an issue for some specs. On that point, I think we will have to agree to disagree.

That's a fair point to make, and it's honestly just two people having different experiences, no harm done.
Classes definitely need more balancing for sure.

As for the first point, power progression is fine, I am merely advocating to have time as a gatekeeper, instead of leaving the solo crew out entirely. Valor to increase covenant armor to M+ level? I'd be all for it. Reward valor from WQ and other solo stuff.

[Mystikal]

That's a fair point to make, and it's honestly just two people having different experiences, no harm done.
Classes definitely need more balancing for sure.

As for the first point, power progression is fine, I am merely advocating to have time as a gatekeeper, instead of leaving the solo crew out entirely. Valor to increase covenant armor to M+ level? I'd be all for it. Reward valor from WQ and other solo stuff.

I agree with the time element, and I think a fair few others would, too. Unfortunately, the somewhat vocal crowd seem to think that, if one player gets 226 ilvl in 2 months (from clearing Mythic raids) and another gets it in 6 months (from some good luck with the Great Vault), that that is somehow 'wrong'.

Not really sure how to feel about the latest implentation of valour. It feels like it's more directed at alts to me at the moment, although this could be down to how late in the patch that it arrived. It might feel different next patch, although having to regrind the dungeon achievements before I can make use of it hardly fills me with joy. It also is a bit strange that callings award valour when there is nothing in the covenants to spend them on (and it's such a low amount, that it begs an even further question of 'why?').

[kaminaris]

Except money had to be accrued so yes that rewarded greater effort = greater reward. You're making my argument for me. I know my wording was bad, but if you can read in-between the lines at all, you'll still understand I was talking about RPGs, not literally every game ever made in every genre ever.

Comparing WoW to Fortnite is just asinine.

No, you are plain wrong. Doing HARDER content gave you usually more efficient reward, not something unobtainable anywhere else (ie, not possible to buy, not possible to drop). Effort is not equal difficulty.

This is how it always was and should be.

[Echocho]

No, you are plain wrong. Doing HARDER content gave you usually more efficient reward, not something unobtainable anywhere else (ie, not possible to buy, not possible to drop). Effort is not equal difficulty.

This is how it always was and should be.

Effort can be doing something time consuming or something hard or any combination of the two. Somehow the elitist minmaxers have decided that only skill should award anything of value.

It's like in real life if only the most difficult jobs earned you any money, your brain surgeons and rocket scientists.

[Freedom]

No, you are plain wrong. Doing HARDER content gave you usually more efficient reward, not something unobtainable anywhere else (ie, not possible to buy, not possible to drop). Effort is not equal difficulty.

This is how it always was and should be.

I don't get it - this isn't all true. Good luck obtaining Might of Menethil, Apolyon the Soul-Render, or Glorenzelg, High-Blade of the Silver Hand (especially the 277 Heroic version) from killing boars in Elwynn Forest, Hellfire Peninsula or Howling Fjord during their respective expansions. There have always been some level quality of items that are just not obtainable if you don't do much harder than average content. I'd certainly say that not only was Naxx40 harder than MC, SWP was harder than Karazhan, and ICC25/25H was harder than Naxx10/25, they definitely had some things in them that were very good, and unobtainable anywhere else. Sure you could get a PVP 2 hander with high enough rating that was somewhat close to Naxx40/SWP/ICC25H loot, but it just wasn't the same for use in PVE content, as a high end PVE weapon.

Take DBW versus Herkuml War Token or whatever its name was. There is no way that you can say there was any way other than raiding medium to hard content to get DBW: https://wotlkdb.com/?item=50362. That item is just plain better for most classes than its badge counterpart, Herkuml War Token: https://wotlkdb.com/?item=50355. There's really no comparison between the two, especially for classes that need ArP like Fury Warriors.

[kaminaris]

I don't get it - this isn't all true.

You responded to me not knowing context and that automatically makes your entire post invalid. I was talking about oldschool mmos and even new mmos like ashes where concept of soulbind didn't exist (or it was limited/possible to unbind). Wow is exception here and reason why loot sucks as there is no loot sink, no risk vs reward systems.

[Freedom]

You responded to me not knowing context and that automatically makes your entire post invalid. I was talking about oldschool mmos and even new mmos like ashes where concept of soulbind didn't exist (or it was limited/possible to unbind). Wow is exception here and reason why loot sucks as there is no loot sink, no risk vs reward systems.

Oh, whoops. But I guess in a way my post proves your point - WoW has been the way it is for a long, long time.

And even in oldschool mmos gear was simply tradable which made that argument completely irrelevant as money could buy you power - as it rightfully should.

If I understand what was said any better now, you think that there being soulbound loot instead of everything being BoE is a bad thing, and Heroic LK 25 loot or Mythic Denathrius loot should be sellable on the AH... which would change WoW's character entirely. I have no interest in debating this point whatsoever.

[kaminaris]

If I understand what was said any better now, you think that there being soulbound loot instead of everything being BoE is a bad thing, and Heroic LK 25 loot or Mythic Denathrius loot should be sellable on the AH... which would change WoW's character entirely. I have no interest in debating this point whatsoever.

Soulbind loot is a "solution" to a problem of having utterly garbage boring loot system in general, speaking simply, because there is NO Risk x Reward system like +X enchanting blizzard gone with the laziest "solution" - soulbinding. Making everything in BoE wouldn't work without any item sink. But it also breeds problem like you have now inability to reliably obtain items you want. If RNG screws you over, you may not see specific item drop for very long time or you have to buy boosts.

[cszsolt3]

This.

This singular argument is the one that makes me laugh the hardest every time it comes up. Downloading and installing addons and macros other people made doesn't make you "better at the game." It makes you a brainless near-bot who couldn't play the game to save their life if said addons and macros weren't telling you what to do every step of the way.

It's always amusing how "unplayable" the game gets whenever one of the bigger addons breaks with a patch or expansion, but miraculously becomes playable the same day its updated.

Sorry for the late reply , but I feel I had to respond given you thought to ridicule me.

All I want to say is, I always have a hard time believing someone with your magnitude of delusions could walk on this earth. Please have someone set up your macros and addons for you, then join some mythic clear for the easy loot. I would loveeee to see your performance.