{TV} The Falcon and the Winter Soldier

[Skulltaker]

pfft, he can just hold them n they can't get out of his grip. he doesn't have to attack them..

what the flag-smash ginger did was different..she threw a punch with full force, i knew at once he was dead how his back hit that pillar..

u can't make super strength not count when u want some characters to do something beyond their power level, ordinary humans by the rules set by that universe would be like children trying to wrestle with an adult...gimme a break..

If it were one, maybe. But they were three, armed with Wakandan tech and Vibranium spears. They are one of the toughest group of non-enhanced warriors on the planet. You can't just grab them by the neck like a kitten if they have a spear that can gut you in an instant. To use your stock image example, give the kids a gun and the urge to fight back, see how good that goes for the adult.

[tyrlaan]

The further we get into this, the more I think we're gonna end this with the shield being destroyed and the mantle of Captain America tarnished beyond redemption. I think everyone arguing about who was gonna be the "new Cap" have been missing the point (and I'll freely include myself and all my "I think it's gonna be Bucky" theorizing earlier in the thread).

I think that's how they're gonna separate the MCU from the comics, here. Take a firm stance that mantles sometimes can't be passed on, because there's no one who can fill out the suit and live up to the original.

This feels unlikely to me. I also think that delivering the message that sometimes you can't fill the shoes of a predecessor and having someone take up the shield are not mutually exclusive.

I just think from a meta perspective it would be a hard sell to audiences for this to conclude with no shield at all. I also think that would be a greater insult to Steve's wishes than Sam turning it over.

I feel like a very big line that speaks to where the story needs to tread is the moment where Bucky laid out his fears to bare to Sam - "If he was wrong about you then that means he was wrong about me". I don't think there's a meaningful conclusion to this story if the shield gets destroyed and no one takes up the mantle. Unless the MCU decides to take an extraordinarily dark turn.

I also think your Bucky theory has a lot of merit and has been additionally foreshadowed since you first posted it.

[Endus]

This feels unlikely to me. I also think that delivering the message that sometimes you can't fill the shoes of a predecessor and having someone take up the shield are not mutually exclusive.

I just think from a meta perspective it would be a hard sell to audiences for this to conclude with no shield at all. I also think that would be a greater insult to Steve's wishes than Sam turning it over.

I feel like a very big line that speaks to where the story needs to tread is the moment where Bucky laid out his fears to bare to Sam - "If he was wrong about you then that means he was wrong about me". I don't think there's a meaningful conclusion to this story if the shield gets destroyed and no one takes up the mantle. Unless the MCU decides to take an extraordinarily dark turn.

I also think your Bucky theory has a lot of merit and has been additionally foreshadowed since you first posted it.

That's my thoughts on the "it's gonna be Sam" theory; Sam's just "what if Cap had wings". He'd make for different action scenes, sure. But frankly, I think the moment he had with the kid when they were going to Isaiah Bradley's is really telling; the kid calls him "Black Falcon", and Sam's immediately "why you gotta do that? Why am I not just Falcon?"

If Sam takes up the shield, as empowering as that might feel for a lot of visible minorities, it's also gonna get him labelled as "the black Captain America". Even by audiences outside the show. It ain't right, but it's gonna happen. The whole conversation around Sam as Captain America is going to center around race. What it "means". That's why people want Sam to pick it up; for the symbolism, not because it's what Sam needs.

This whole show is about breaking down what symbols really mean to people, the power that they have, both by existing, and when they break. You can see them running through that with the symbol of the shield; what it meant when Steve held it. Then the bated breath America held when it was sitting, waiting. Then Walker taking it up, and now drenching that shield in blood in full view of the public and their cameras. Because that was the most important part of that final scene; not that Walker killed that guy, but that he did it in public, where it was recorded and from which it will be broadcast, for everyone to see. That's now going to indelibly be part of the mantle. Anyone who picks it up, people will immediately think "is this gonna be another John Walker?" How much damage did Walker do, in that moment, not just to the title of Captain America, but to what America thinks of itself, with Cap as its avatar?

This is what I meant when I said I thought they may destroy the shield. We're gonna have at least one more episode for Walker to dig his hole even deeper before they can tear that shield away from him, maybe both the remaining episodes. But for anyone to take the shield up now means they wouldn't just be trying to live up to Steve's legacy. They'd also be trying to wash off the blood of Walker's legacy. He's changed the meaning of the symbol. Possibly irredeemably. There's no going back from this, now.

And I think that's what they've been driving at from day 1.

[Skulltaker]

you are comparing martial arts between regular humans, not human vs super human. Why can't you understand the difference?

Strength sure is helpful, but by far not the most decisive factor in a fight. The human body has plenty of weak points that can be exploited with little strength and cannot be trained. A scrawny teenager can take the reigning heavy-weight champion out of the fight with one well-placed kick against the knee. A properly executed jab against the Solarplexus and you'll have people struggling for breath. Jab the eyes. Hit the jaw from below.

Also, Vibranium spears.

[tyrlaan]

That's my thoughts on the "it's gonna be Sam" theory; Sam's just "what if Cap had wings". He'd make for different action scenes, sure. But frankly, I think the moment he had with the kid when they were going to Isaiah Bradley's is really telling; the kid calls him "Black Falcon", and Sam's immediately "why you gotta do that? Why am I not just Falcon?"

If Sam takes up the shield, as empowering as that might feel for a lot of visible minorities, it's also gonna get him labelled as "the black Captain America". Even by audiences outside the show. It ain't right, but it's gonna happen. The whole conversation around Sam as Captain America is going to center around race. What it "means". That's why people want Sam to pick it up; for the symbolism, not because it's what Sam needs.

This whole show is about breaking down what symbols really mean to people, the power that they have, both by existing, and when they break. You can see them running through that with the symbol of the shield; what it meant when Steve held it. Then the bated breath America held when it was sitting, waiting. Then Walker taking it up, and now drenching that shield in blood in full view of the public and their cameras. Because that was the most important part of that final scene; not that Walker killed that guy, but that he did it in public, where it was recorded and from which it will be broadcast, for everyone to see. That's now going to indelibly be part of the mantle. Anyone who picks it up, people will immediately think "is this gonna be another John Walker?" How much damage did Walker do, in that moment, not just to the title of Captain America, but to what America thinks of itself, with Cap as its avatar?

This is what I meant when I said I thought they may destroy the shield. We're gonna have at least one more episode for Walker to dig his hole even deeper before they can tear that shield away from him, maybe both the remaining episodes. But for anyone to take the shield up now means they wouldn't just be trying to live up to Steve's legacy. They'd also be trying to wash off the blood of Walker's legacy. He's changed the meaning of the symbol. Possibly irredeemably. There's no going back from this, now.

And I think that's what they've been driving at from day 1.

And that sounds exactly like the kind of challenge Bucky needs, or at least feels he needs, and the kind of challenge Sam doesn't.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Why isn't he wrecking the Wakandans in that fight scene? Because they're the best friends he has in that room. Better friends than Sam. Definitely better than Zemo and Walker. He likes them and it's hurting him that he even has to oppose them.

A) i don't think the Wakandans would get "wrecked" by Bucky. Sure, he has superior physical stats...but they are all Dora Milaje...Basically Wakandan Special Forces and the King's Royal Guard. A king that has stats that are, at the very least, equal to Bucky's. And remember, When they were testing to see if Bucky's trigger words had been deactivated...Ayo was alone with him and she was like "I won't let you hurt anyone". That at least speaks to their confidence. Not saying that she could beat him one on one...but i think she'd put up a decent fight for him. And with 3 of them there...he'd probably have issues.

B) I don't think it's friendship that holds Bucky back. I'm sure he does like them but it goes deeper than that. It's like he owes them a debt he knows he can never pay...and they have every reason in the world to want to bring Zemo to justice. Protecting Zemo from them, even for the greater good, is distasteful.

As an aside, I really liked how he just stood back and let them humiliate Walker...only interfering when they went for the killing blow. He wanted them to school Walker a bit. Unfortunately, John learned the wrong lesson.

[formerShandalay]

A) i don't think the Wakandans would get "wrecked" by Bucky. Sure, he has superior physical stats...but they are all Dora Milaje...Basically Wakandan Special Forces and the King's Royal Guard. A king that has stats that are, at the very least, equal to Bucky's. And remember, When they were testing to see if Bucky's trigger words had been deactivated...Ayo was alone with him and she was like "I won't let you hurt anyone". That at least speaks to their confidence. Not saying that she could beat him one on one...but i think she'd put up a decent fight for him. And with 3 of them there...he'd probably have issues.

B) I don't think it's friendship that holds Bucky back. I'm sure he does like them but it goes deeper than that. It's like he owes them a debt he knows he can never pay...and they have every reason in the world to want to bring Zemo to justice. Protecting Zemo from them, even for the greater good, is distasteful.

As an aside, I really liked how he just stood back and let them humiliate Walker...only interfering when they went for the killing blow. He wanted them to school Walker a bit. Unfortunately, John learned the wrong lesson.

Best thing was, when Sam said 'we should do something' Bucky does something alright... 'looking strong, John' is definitely very helpful

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

u guys can think that, but I think he'd be expecting they would go for murder at once n would hold them down..

anyways, the whole show has had bucky acting underpowered..

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pfft, he can just hold them n they can't get out of his grip. he doesn't have to attack them..

He could maybe hold one of them that way. Not all three. The Dora Milaje are not children. They train with the Black Panther. They know how to fight people with superior physical stats.

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Best thing was, when Sam said 'we should do something' Bucky does something alright... 'looking strong, John' is definitely very helpful

Yeah, Bucky was only worried about them killing Walker. For everything up to that point he was content to just enjoy the show.

[eschatological]

I mean, why were they trying to kill Walker?

I know he was kinda demeaning with his "pointy sticks" comment, and tried to do the shoulder clasp thing.....but he's not the one who sprung Zemo. There was very little shown for why they might want to kill the dude. That's why I wonder if they're rogue or not.

In fact, it's just weird to me in general that they got so distracted in trying to literally kill Walker and Hoskins that A) Sam and Bucky had to step in, and B) they let the object of their visit, Zemo, just slip away to the next room.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

I mean, why were they trying to kill Walker?

I know he was kinda demeaning with his "pointy sticks" comment, and tried to do the shoulder clasp thing.....but he's not the one who sprung Zemo. There was very little shown for why they might want to kill the dude. That's why I wonder if they're rogue or not.

I don't think think they wanted to kill Walker...they just had no reason not to. These are warriors... they don't start fights they don't intend to finish.

In fact, it's just weird to me in general that they got so distracted in trying to literally kill Walker and Hoskins that A) Sam and Bucky had to step in, and B) they let the object of their visit, Zemo, just slip away to the next room.

Well, that's just narrative. Zemo has to escape. But I don't think the Dora Milaje were expecting the Bathroom to be Zemo's escape route.

[Endus]

I don't think think they wanted to kill Walker...they just had no reason not to. These are warriors... they don't start fights they don't intend to finish.

Also, I'm really not sure they're rogue.

The "the Dora Milaje have jurisdiction wherever the Dora Milaje find themselves to be" line could just literally mean exactly that; they recognize no national jurisdictions at all, no laws but their own. The nation they're in would, of course, probably disagree, but do they have the capacity to enforce that, or will the Dora Milaje just kick the shit out of whatever cops try and stop them and go about their business?

Recall, Wakanda functionally did not exist on the world stage until like 7 years ago, in-universe. Everyone thought they were a poverty-stricken bit of Africa, so lacking in even natural resources that they weren't even worth conquering. They must have been operating in secret for centuries, with massively advanced technology compared to anyone else in the world, doing as they would, engaging in no diplomatic relations whatsoever other than what their puppet cover government did to maintain the fiction.

When someone stole Vibranium, they didn't launch appeals through the UN or pursue international cooperation with local police departments. They just went in and took it back, without even letting the government of the nation this took place in know they'd be there.

Walker's just in their way, and they'll put him down if that's what it takes. Like they have literally every other time anyone's ever opposed them.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Also, I'm really not sure they're rogue.

Yeah, I don't think they're rogue either.

The "the Dora Milaje have jurisdiction wherever the Dora Milaje find themselves to be" line could just literally mean exactly that; they recognize no national jurisdictions at all, no laws but their own. The nation they're in would, of course, probably disagree, but do they have the capacity to enforce that, or will the Dora Milaje just kick the shit out of whatever cops try and stop them and go about their business?

Recall, Wakanda functionally did not exist on the world stage until like 7 years ago, in-universe. Everyone thought they were a poverty-stricken bit of Africa, so lacking in even natural resources that they weren't even worth conquering. They must have been operating in secret for centuries, with massively advanced technology compared to anyone else in the world, doing as they would, engaging in no diplomatic relations whatsoever other than what their puppet cover government did to maintain the fiction.

I don't think Wakanda ever had a Puppet Government. Just no one outside of Wakanda what kind of World Superpower the country really is. The limited diplomatic outreach they engaged in all seems to be have been legit. T'chaka seems to have been the kind of King that did want to help the rest of the world in whatever ways he could that wouldn't blow their cover.

When someone stole Vibranium, they didn't launch appeals through the UN or pursue international cooperation with local police departments. They just went in and took it back, without even letting the government of the nation this took place in know they'd be there.

Well, in that specific case it was more about keeping the existence of vibranium a secret.

Walker's just in their way, and they'll put him down if that's what it takes. Like they have literally every other time anyone's ever opposed them.

Pretty much. Unlike Bucky,Walker's done nothing to earn their respect. He fucked around and he found out.

[Ophenia]

A) i don't think the Wakandans would get "wrecked" by Bucky. Sure, he has superior physical stats...but they are all Dora Milaje...Basically Wakandan Special Forces and the King's Royal Guard. A king that has stats that are, at the very least, equal to Bucky's. And remember, When they were testing to see if Bucky's trigger words had been deactivated...Ayo was alone with him and she was like "I won't let you hurt anyone". That at least speaks to their confidence. Not saying that she could beat him one on one...but i think she'd put up a decent fight for him. And with 3 of them there...he'd probably have issues.

Honestly I don't understand all that. If Dora Milaje are capable of dealing with super soldiers 1v1 with no problem, then what's exactly the point of super soldiers ? That means that any single trained fighter with vibranium equipment is capable of doing the same feats as Captain, Black Panther and Winter Soldier. Then I don't even see the point of the Wakanda needing a Black Panther to begin with.

One Dora Milaje should be a no match for a super soldier, period. And if that's the Vibranium stuff they wield that make such a difference, then Infinity War's Wakanda's battle would have ended within minutes.

Wakanda's aspects are so overpowered in the MCU that it's becoming sickening. Next thing you know is Shuri going 1v1 against Strange and winning fingers in the nose

[PACOX]

I've done a lot of lore discussions during the pandemic because wtf else is there to do? I think the one thing a lot of people miss in x vs y character discussions is technique/wisdom over pure strength when it comes to fights. Bucky is the 'strongest character on this show, Bucky and Kali are the 'strongest' characters but not the best fighters. I would actually put Sam before Bucky when it comes to fighting skills, and the Wakadans are obviously a league above everyone. A fight isn't just about who can throw the hardest blow, but how well you can actually counter and manipulate your opponent. It's why the Hulk is stronger than just about everyone but can still be bested. The Wakandans kicked everyone's ass not because they were the strongest but because they were the best combatants.

All the Super Soldier serum does for someone who isn't good at fighting is make a lucky blow devastating, assuming they can land a lucky blow against a smart opponent.

[s_bushido]

I would actually put Sam before Bucky when it comes to fighting skills

Going to have to hard disagree on that one. Sam may be a competent soldier but he didn’t spend decades as an assassin that even someone like Natasha seemed genuinely concerned about. And yeah, I get that he wasn’t active that entire time, but it’s still a lot of experience that Sam just doesn’t have.

[Ihavewaffles]

Because we're not talking about different physics.

Being able to lift 1000lbs over your head rather than 200 doesn't make it significantly more difficult to break a wrist grab you're holding on someone. Particularly not for a trained fighter. Technique matters one hell of a lot more than base strength.

Go do a judo move on an elephant, endus. tell us how it went after.

[Skulltaker]

Go do a judo move on an elephant, endus. tell us how it went after.

Leading a discussion ad absurdum is usually a really strong move in any argument. It shows just how much you know what you're talking about.

[PACOX]

Going to have to hard disagree on that one. Sam may be a competent soldier but he didn’t spend decades as an assassin that even someone like Natasha seemed genuinely concerned about. And yeah, I get that he wasn’t active that entire time, but it’s still a lot of experience that Sam just doesn’t have.

Sam was pararescue and a PTSD counselor before joining the Avengers. At the very least, his job was to exploit the weaknesses of a threat long enough for extraction. He may not be the strongest or the fastest but his job is to survive die-hard situations. Bucky barely tasted free will as a person who isn't programmed to ignore things such as pain, fear, reason before he was snapped away. Bucky maybe 1000 years old but he doesn't have much experience because as the Winter Soldier he was basically a robot. Punches hit different when you can actually feel them.

Cap chose Sam over Bucky because Sam has actual real-world crisis experience versus a man who spends years as an automaton. Nothing against Bucky really but Bucky has a lot of growing as a person to do.

Notice has Sam may be the physcially weakest of all the fighters on the show but he doesn't get his ass kicked left and right and has the most success against the Flagsmashers.

[Fabinas]

Go do a judo move on an elephant, endus. tell us how it went after.

In this case, man against elephant, technique is being able to imagine and construct a high caliber rifle that will split the elephant's head in two, when shot.

Something i am sure elephants, with their sheer strength and weight, cannot even fathom.

[s_bushido]

Punches hit different when you can actually feel them.

The whole point of his character is that he remembers everything that he did while he was the Winter Soldier. You can easily argue that he's more inclined to pull his punches now that he's not just a faceless killing machine, but even while programmed by Hydra, he wasn't a robot. As evidenced by the fact that Steve was able to reach him in the first place.

Notice has Sam may be the physcially weakest of all the fighters on the show but he doesn't get his ass kicked left and right and has the most success against the Flagsmashers.

Street brawlers (which is essentially what the Flagsmashers are, aren't going to be well-versed in dealing with someone with a rocket strapped to his back and the ability to deploy extra limbs at will. Bucky is on par with Steve when it comes to close-quarters combat, and it took assistance from a computer (and all the tricks built into his suit) for Tony to get the better of him...something Sam doesn't have access to.