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  1. #421
    Quote Originally Posted by SirBeef View Post
    The one picker story may have merit about being forced.They were basically told to hold it in or be fired for missing their rate. However I'd bet this is a their direct manager issue not a cultural issue. I'd bet dollars to donuts that if the GM of that location found out an employee was told to do something like that, that manager would be fired.
    Well, yeah. If it were a company policy, there would have been far more than one story out there. But that doesn't matter to the far left media and the far left echo chamber here. They spin everything to fit their agenda.




    In Alabama, where the employer used daily propaganda and threatening actions to make sure it didn't succeed. Shocker.
    Proof of the threatening actions happening please. Unsubstantiated claims by the union does not equal proof. And don't act like the Unions didn't use propaganda too. LOL at these attempts to make it seem like the Unions are innocent angels here that did nothing to try to influence things.

  2. #422
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krakan View Post
    I don't think the unemployed are going to be a part of a union...for this idea to work the working poor would need to be less...well poor.
    True, but then they get employed, and join the union.
    Which is what I implied was happening.

    Sweden has no minimum wage law legislation. Because we've got unions.
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  3. #423
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    I never said it was easy to put into practice. But it needs to be done if the people in the US want to keep even the slightest resemblance of control. Let's be honest, the way things are going the US mega corps are absolutely happy to exploit the fuck out of the workers. That Amazon bottle thing? The only reason, the ONLY reason someone in the PR department thought it necessary to even comment on that is the public shitstorm. And the practical result? A lot of meetings in which it will be decided that the drivers have to get rid of their bottles before they get into the station. Breaks? Fuck no, that's not what Amazon understood this shitstorm to be about. Their policy is no bottles back into the station (if anyone asks, that's so they can say they never knew about problems).
    Repeating BS spin doesn't make it fact.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karreck View Post
    But if everybody is making "slave wages", then why are the majority "fat cats"?
    The fat cats are thsose that have spouses with large incomes, so it doesn't matter to them what their wages are.

    Here what this situation sounds like. Your "family members" wanted more than the majority wanted, or than the union could bargain for, and got pissed that their personal wants were not met. What you, and your "family members", clearly don't understand is that unions try to bargain with the following mindset.
    A. What do the majority of our members want?
    B. What do we have the best chance of getting for our members?
    C. What will benefit the majority of our members?

    Based on your own statements, the union got pensions and benefits for their members, the majority were happy with this result, and the majority did not push for more. Is a union supposed to put in the resources and effort pushing for something that the minority of their members want?
    YES. Union are supposed to be looking out for ALL workers not just the majority. They absolutely could bargain for more awages, but refused to because the majority made it so they could refuse to.

    It is absolutely hilarious that you scream about corporations paying slave wages and then puff up unions to get them better wages then turn right around and say it is OK for Unions to screw workers over on wages. What a massive hypocrite you are. I guess as long as you get what you want screw everyone else huh?

  4. #424
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    YES. Union are supposed to be looking out for ALL workers not just the majority.
    Again, you're exhibiting that you literally haven't the foggiest clue how unions work.

    It's always been about representing the majority within the union, because you're never going to get a uniform opinion from every union member. They're not a hive-mind.

    They protect all their member. But when it comes time to negotiation and the members have to choose to prioritize pay increases or health coverage, for example, the negotiators are going to push for what the majority of the union wants more aggressively.

    Every post of yours is further evidence that you haven't the foggiest clue about the history or purpose of unions.

  5. #425
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Are you looking for excuses to dismiss the entire concept? Because that's a pretty dumb argument you have right there. The quality of a union is determined by the member density of the union. The German judiciary considers a union "adequately strong" if it can impose actions during labor disputes. With actions we're talking strikes, temporary shut downs of production plants, those sort of things.

    Other than that, I'm not going to do the English teacher thing. Look up good and bad in your dictionary.

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    The trick is that you keep unionising, anyone who joins the Amazon force is offered membership in that union, at some point Amazon will have to talk to the union and the longer Amazon drags it out, the more powerful that union gets.

    And yes, Amazon would have to seriously suffer. The point is not to get at Amazon, the point is to show the entire industry what would happen if you fuck with the union.

    Now, and this is why it doesn't work in the US, at this point typically corrupt fucks and/or the Mafia step in and say "Wow, extortion at an industrial level, awesome, I'm going to take over right here... and now you pay me. Thank you!" and Americans give up on the concept.
    "Good" and "bad" are subjective. Also, strength (especially in numbers) is not the same as quality. A strong union does not mean it is a quality union.

    I'm glad to see you understand that unions are industrial level extortion.

  6. #426
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    I'm glad to see you understand that unions are industrial level extortion.
    Give up all the employment protections and benefits union members fought and died for, then. Seriously. No overtime, no weekends, no 8 hour days, no paid leave. Give it all up since I guess those all came from industrial level extortion.

  7. #427
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Again, you're exhibiting that you literally haven't the foggiest clue how unions work.

    It's always been about representing the majority within the union, because you're never going to get a uniform opinion from every union member. They're not a hive-mind.

    They protect all their member. But when it comes time to negotiation and the members have to choose to prioritize pay increases or health coverage, for example, the negotiators are going to push for what the majority of the union wants more aggressively.

    Every post of yours is further evidence that you haven't the foggiest clue about the history or purpose of unions.
    The most common purpose of a union is to artificially inflate the value of its members' labor. (Not saying that is good or bad, just what it is.)

  8. #428
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    The most common purpose of a union is to artificially inflate the value of its members' labor. (Not saying that is good or bad, just what it is.)
    That's not remotely true at all. The point of unions is to put employees on more equal footing in negotiation for pay, benefits, and protections with their employer, and acts as a check to ensure that its members are not being exploited by the employer.

    They don't all operate this way in practice, and there are plenty of shitty unions out there. Plus you have "unions" in China which are pretty much the polar opposite of what we traditionally understand in the west.

    But this isn't remotely true in the slightest, especially when it comes to unionization in skilled trades, for example.

  9. #429
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Give up all the employment protections and benefits union members fought and died for, then. Seriously. No overtime, no weekends, no 8 hour days, no paid leave. Give it all up since I guess those all came from industrial level extortion.
    I have paid leave, but none of the others, but my leave was negotiated at hiring. And yes I work full time.

  10. #430
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    I have paid leave, but none of the others, but my leave was negotiated at hiring. And yes I work full time.
    What country is this where there's no standard 8 hour workday or weekends? Or are you salaried and exempt or something?

  11. #431
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    Well, yeah. If it were a company policy, there would have been far more than one story out there. But that doesn't matter to the far left media and the far left echo chamber here. They spin everything to fit their agenda.




    Proof of the threatening actions happening please. Unsubstantiated claims by the union does not equal proof. And don't act like the Unions didn't use propaganda too. LOL at these attempts to make it seem like the Unions are innocent angels here that did nothing to try to influence things.
    Anti union posters placed in break rooms. Happened, not union propaganda. A dropbox infront of the building where cameras would show management who was mailing votes. This is fact and this is a clear threatening move. Considering they fire people who even mention unions, requiring you to vote under management's eye.

    So look, these are all out there and reported on, even leaked emails showing Amazon trying and successfully getting the USPS to install a box where they legally were ot allowed to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    The most common purpose of a union is to artificially inflate the value of its members' labor. (Not saying that is good or bad, just what it is.)
    Spoken like someone who has no clue what unions do. Even so, the value of labor is so undervalued these days, if all non skilled labor stopped working for a day Amazon would be toast. Seems like they are worth more than what you may think.

  12. #432
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    That's not remotely true at all. The point of unions is to put employees on more equal footing in negotiation for pay, benefits, and protections with their employer, and acts as a check to ensure that its members are not being exploited by the employer.

    They don't all operate this way in practice, and there are plenty of shitty unions out there. Plus you have "unions" in China which are pretty much the polar opposite of what we traditionally understand in the west.

    But this isn't remotely true in the slightest, especially when it comes to unionization in skilled trades, for example.
    As I said, they make employees more valuable than the market dictates. You can coach it in more flattering terms, but at the end of the day, that is their function.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    What country is this where there's no standard 8 hour workday or weekends? Or are you salaried and exempt or something?
    Exempt salaried and very well compensated for it. No union required.

  13. #433
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    As I said, they make employees more valuable than the market dictates.
    "The market" doesn't dictate anything. The company chooses what they want to pay them, and the companies interest is in keeping wages as low as possible to limit expenses.

    Hence why unions exist to push back against that and push for more fair wages and benefits for their members. Labor's value isn't purely determined by companies, nor should it be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    You can coach it in more flattering terms, but at the end of the day, that is their function.
    You're arguing for a world where employees have no recourse to exploitation but to beg companies to maybe pay them more individually.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    Exempt salaried and very well compensated for it. No union required.
    Congrats! I'm salary-exempted too, though thankfully work for a company that respects my personal life and rarely requires me to do overtime. Still doesn't detract from the importance of unions for the majority of workers who are not salary-exempt.

  14. #434
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirBeef View Post
    Anti union posters placed in break rooms. Happened, not union propaganda. A dropbox infront of the building where cameras would show management who was mailing votes. This is fact and this is a clear threatening move. Considering they fire people who even mention unions, requiring you to vote under management's eye.

    So look, these are all out there and reported on, even leaked emails showing Amazon trying and successfully getting the USPS to install a box where they legally were ot allowed to.

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    Spoken like someone who has no clue what unions do. Even so, the value of labor is so undervalued these days, if all non skilled labor stopped working for a day Amazon would be toast. Seems like they are worth more than what you may think.
    Unskilled labor has a value cap at the cost of automation to replace it, and a market cap at the cost of replacing a person with another unskilled person.

  15. #435
    Quote Originally Posted by SirBeef View Post
    Anti union posters placed in break rooms. Happened, not union propaganda. A dropbox infront of the building where cameras would show management who was mailing votes. This is fact and this is a clear threatening move. Considering they fire people who even mention unions, requiring you to vote under management's eye.

    So look, these are all out there and reported on, even leaked emails showing Amazon trying and successfully getting the USPS to install a box where they legally were ot allowed to.
    Your spin is as hilariously bad as the pro-union radicals here.
    1. A poster? So? Unions handed out their own propaganda to all employees. Don't see you out raged about that. Oh I forgot, It's perfectly OK for Un
    ions to do it, but the company is not allowed to inform it's employees about unions. Your hypocrisy is growing.

    2. Show me proof that Amazon fired anyone for mentioning unions. So, not only are you a hypocrite, you are a liar too.

    3. LOL calling far left media who spin their reporting to fit their pro-union bias is not reporting.

    4.Everyone votes. That camera also can't show you how they voted. That camera is also a security camera and no matter where the mailbox is put, a security camera will be on it. If they are not allowed to install a box, then the USPS should be reported. Since they haven't been, it;s the Unions once again lying out their rears. That argument is beyond ridiculous.

    Your post is notiing but parroting the propaganda used by the media arm of the unions. Also funny how you completely spun away from unions screwing their members over on wages and refusing to condemn them for it. Your silence and hypocrisy is deafening.

  16. #436
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    "The market" doesn't dictate anything. The company chooses what they want to pay them, and the companies interest is in keeping wages as low as possible to limit expenses.

    Hence why unions exist to push back against that and push for more fair wages and benefits for their members. Labor's value isn't purely determined by companies, nor should it be.



    You're arguing for a world where employees have no recourse to exploitation but to beg companies to maybe pay them more individually.

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    Congrats! I'm salary-exempted too, though thankfully work for a company that respects my personal life and rarely requires me to do overtime. Still doesn't detract from the importance of unions for the majority of workers who are not salary-exempt.
    A company chooses what to pay based on what it takes to attract the skill and employment level needed to perform its work. My company pays over minimum wage to get Neanderthal level competence because the job is a bit hazardous and unpleasant.

    I wanted a better salary and benefits package, so I increased my skills in an in demand vocation. Much preferable to needing a union.

  17. #437
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    A company chooses what to pay based on what it takes to attract the skill and employment level needed to perform its work. My company pays over minimum wage to get Neanderthal level competence because the job is a bit hazardous and unpleasant.

    I wanted a better salary and benefits package, so I increased my skills in an in demand vocation. Much preferable to needing a union.
    See? It’s so easy guys.

    Just place your face directly into your own ass and sniff the farts.

  18. #438
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    A company chooses what to pay .
    As little as possible in order to extract maximum value. What determines that is essentially a power dynamic, a negotiation between employer and employee where the degree of power one has over the other is leveraged. Unionized work environments offer more leverage for labor in those negotiations because of strength from collective bargaining. Employers tend to have an advantage in most negotiations as a result of structural forces within the society and also well the fact that people need to eat. Your "skill" is a factor in that negotiations as well (it provides you leverage) but a small part. You could be the most skilled underwater welder in the universe but if the market was flooded with underwater welders then the strength of your bargaining position is weaker. If you were starving and about to lose your home the strength of your bargaining position would be weaker regardless of any formal education or ability etc etc
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2021-04-10 at 09:51 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  19. #439
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    Quote Originally Posted by unfilteredJW View Post
    See? It’s so easy guys.

    Just place your face directly into your own ass and sniff the farts.
    I didn't say it was easy, I said it was preferable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    As little as possible in order to extract maximum value. What determines that is essentially a power dynamic, a negotiation between employer and employee where the degree of power one has over the other is leveraged. Unionized work environments offer more leverage for labor in those negotiations because of strength from collective bargaining. Employers tend to have an advantage in most negotiations as a result of structural forces within the society and also well the fact that people need to eat. Your "skill" is a factor in that negotiations as well (it provides you leverage) but a small part. You could be the most skilled underwater welder in the universe but if the market was flooded with underwater welders then the strength of your bargaining position is weaker. If you were starving and about to lose your home the strength of your bargaining position would be weaker regardless of any formal education or ability etc etc
    Again, unions artificially raise the value of labor. Your "skill" is underwater welding, your only competition is other underwater welders. If there are more underwater welders than there are jobs, the value of your skill decreases. On the other hand, if the demand for underwater welders far exceeds the supply, your value balloons significantly.

  20. #440
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    Again, unions artificially raise the value of labor. Your "skill" is underwater welding, your only competition is other underwater welders. If there are more underwater welders than there are jobs, the value of your skill decreases. On the other hand, if the demand for underwater welders far exceeds the supply, your value balloons significantly.
    As a certified (non-underwater) welder, my value isn't determined by the number of other certified welders. It's the fact I'm certified. It would be more true for someone who is underwater certified because not only do they need certification in welding but also diving. Their value isn't determined by how many people can do it, it's the fact they are certified to do it. Any moron can watch a video on how to scuba dive, but to do it properly and safely you need to be certified. Just like any idiot can pick up a rod and say they're a welder. In order to do my (previous ) job you have to be certified. That deserves a higher pay grade compared to someone who isn't certified. Had my job not been union I wouldn't have been making as much as I did.

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