{TV} The Falcon and the Winter Soldier

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Honestly I don't understand all that. If Dora Milaje are capable of dealing with super soldiers 1v1 with no problem, then what's exactly the point of super soldiers ? That means that any single trained fighter with vibranium equipment is capable of doing the same feats as Captain, Black Panther and Winter Soldier. Then I don't even see the point of the Wakanda needing a Black Panther to begin with.

One Dora Milaje should be a no match for a super soldier, period. And if that's the Vibranium stuff they wield that make such a difference, then Infinity War's Wakanda's battle would have ended within minutes.

Wakanda's aspects are so overpowered in the MCU that it's becoming sickening. Next thing you know is Shuri going 1v1 against Strange and winning fingers in the nose

I didn't say 1 would beat Bucky. I said he'd probably have trouble with 3.

And being a Super Soldier doesn't necessarily make you a skilled fighter. Stats aren't everything. Take Civil War for example. Spider-Man has far better Stats than Steve Rogers...but Steve is a much more skilled fighter than Peter. Iron Man is vastly more powerful than Steve and Bucky...but the combination of the two of them overwhelms him because they're skilled fighters that work well together.

John Walker, without the Super Soldier Serum, is supposed to be the creme de la creme of the America Military... yet he got taken to school by a Dora Milaje. Like completely humiliated.

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Go do a judo move on an elephant, endus. tell us how it went after.

That's a bad comparison...since an elephant and a human aren't of comparable sizes. Super Soldiers are strong...but they are still human sized opponents. There's no reason why a judo move wouldn't be just as effective against a super soldier as it is on anyone else.

[Ophenia]

And being a Super Soldier doesn't necessarily make you a skilled fighter.

Bucky is the 'strongest character on this show, Bucky and Kali are the 'strongest' characters but not the best fighters. I would actually put Sam before Bucky when it comes to fighting skills, and the Wakadans are obviously a league above everyone. A fight isn't just about who can throw the hardest blow, but how well you can actually counter and manipulate your opponent. It's why the Hulk is stronger than just about everyone but can still be bested. The Wakandans kicked everyone's ass not because they were the strongest but because they were the best combatants.

All the Super Soldier serum does for someone who isn't good at fighting is make a lucky blow devastating, assuming they can land a lucky blow against a smart opponent.

Bucky was totally not the best assassin of Hydra for 60 years, he's just a random guy who happened to be boosted for a few minutes.

I agree that Kali is probably just that, strong. But Bucky was a super soldier, dedicated to take out priority targets and put chaos everywhere, all that in the hands of Hydra during a whole 60 years, who probably trained him in fighting for a few years. He's not your everyday random bobby who was boosted and whose only feature is to hit as hard as he's stupid. He was literally the best assassin in the world.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Bucky was totally not the best assassin of Hydra for 60 years, he's just a random guy who happened to be boosted for a few minutes.

No one has said that.

[PACOX]

Bucky was totally not the best assassin of Hydra for 60 years, he's just a random guy who happened to be boosted for a few minutes.

I agree that Kali is probably just that, strong. But Bucky was a super soldier, dedicated to take out priority targets and put chaos everywhere, all that in the hands of Hydra during a whole 60 years, who probably trained him in fighting for a few years. He's not your everyday random bobby who was boosted and whose only feature is to hit as hard as he's stupid. He was literally the best assassin in the world.

The Winter Soldier was the best assassin. The Winter Soldier soldier experienced no pain, had no emotion, he simply followed orders. Bucky is a different person who was forced to live out the life of the Winter Soldier. Bucky has his own mind, his own motivations, his own will. Bucky also can't shake all the things that come with being a human that the Winter Soldier could. Honestly that what makes Bucky (and Steve) compelling characters to me. Super Soldiers who must weigh humanity with their actions. Being a numb soldier who is basically an cyborg is a lot different than being a man of the same physical capabilities but also their own man.

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The whole point of his character is that he remembers everything that he did while he was the Winter Soldier. You can easily argue that he's more inclined to pull his punches now that he's not just a faceless killing machine, but even while programmed by Hydra, he wasn't a robot. As evidenced by the fact that Steve was able to reach him in the first place.


Street brawlers (which is essentially what the Flagsmashers are, aren't going to be well-versed in dealing with someone with a rocket strapped to his back and the ability to deploy extra limbs at will. Bucky is on par with Steve when it comes to close-quarters combat, and it took assistance from a computer (and all the tricks built into his suit) for Tony to get the better of him...something Sam doesn't have access to.

We have to get this out first. Bucky might have been aware of the Winter Soldier's actions but he was nothing more than a passive observer occupying the same space. Buck and the Winter Soldier might as well be two different people occupying the same body - one of the reasons why Bucky isn't completely held accountable for the actions of the Winter Soldier.

Bucky has the 'potential to be on par with Steve but he is no Steve. Bucky knows this and acknowledges it. It's Steve's mind and character that makes him exceptional, why he can even breathe in the same vicinity as Thanos and dare lift Mjolnir.

Bucky doesn't have the experience or temperament (yet) to deal with situations like Steve or even Sam. Bucky only has a few years of experience before and after his stint as the Winter Soldier over the Flagsmashers.

[s_bushido]

snip

I feel like one of us has seriously misinterpreted this character...

There is no hard line between Bucky and The Winter Soldier. His programming made him compliant to the orders he was being given by his Hydra handlers, but it didn't turn him into a machine. He had his memories suppressed and was brainwashed into at least some belief in Hydra's goals, but he was still a person...and he definitely still felt pain.

[PACOX]

I feel like one of us has seriously misinterpreted this character...

There is no hard line between Bucky and The Winter Soldier. His programming made him compliant to the orders he was being given by his Hydra handlers, but it didn't turn him into a machine. He had his memories suppressed and was brainwashed into at least some belief in Hydra's goals, but he was still a person...and he definitely still felt pain.

He had no agency though. Bucky could feel the pain but the pain meant nothing but more torture on top of not being having any control of his own body. Like I said, he was a passive observer to the Winter Soldier. You can't really reconcile Bucky's pardon or anyone sticking their neck out for him if he wasn't just along for the ride as Hydra used his body as the 'Winter Soldier'.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

He had no agency though. Bucky could feel the pain but the pain meant nothing but more torture on top of not being having any control of his own body. Like I said, he was a passive observer to the Winter Soldier. You can't really reconcile Bucky's pardon or anyone sticking their neck out for him if he wasn't just along for the ride as Hydra used his body as the 'Winter Soldier'.

Not completely passive... just unable to break free on his own. Otherwise Steve would never have been able to reach him. And, even with his personality and memories suppressed, he's still able to ask questions. He wanted to know how Steve knew who he was.

And just because he was "only along for the ride"... it doesn't mean he's lost any of the skills he had as the Winter Soldier. That little Display Zemo had him do in Madripoor proved that.

[PACOX]

Not completely passive... just unable to break free on his own. Otherwise Steve would never have been able to reach him. And, even with his personality and memories suppressed, he's still able to ask questions. He wanted to know how Steve knew who he was.

And just because he was "only along for the ride"... it doesn't mean he's lost any of the skills he had as the Winter Soldier. That little Display Zemo had him do in Madripoor proved that.

I'm not saying that Bucky is an incapable fighter, I'm trying to paint a picture as to why him being having the serum doesn't mean he just wipes the floor with everyone. Bucky is still coming to terms with being his own man. He has all the potential Steve had but without the same about time, experiences (on his own), wisdom to tap into it. The Winter Soldier, same body but not Bucky. The primal unyielding instinct without care of self-injury is gone as Bucky. Bucky has to learn from the ground floor up. Well not exactly the ground floor because he was lucid enough to imitate the Winter Soldier. What he did for Zemo was nothing more than reacting what saw through the eyes of the Winter Soldier, like a novice cook imitating a YouTube video they saw of Gordon Ramsey. Maybe they were successful at imitating Ramsey but maybe a while before they can cook on their own. Bucky is still going to be shaky when it comes to fighting until Bucky is able to come to terms with who Bucky is.

[formerShandalay]

I think one of the biggest problems Bucky has at the moment is that he doesn't know when to apply his strength right now. He does it absolutely right in actual fighting situations. But he also knows he is still unstable and loses his calm (which of course comes with being traumatized, the man has been tortured for a few decades, so yea..) while not in a fight and is unsure of applying his strength there. Like when he freaks out at Zemo, Sam stops him and you can see, Bucky agrees that threatening Zemo here was wrong (because he was 'bullying' him with his superior strength). Later he doesn't dare hold Walker back from joining Sam and Karli, even though he of course could, because Walker gets to him with the serum talk and he doesn't know which is the right place to apply this strength: hold Walker back and let Sam finish ('bully' Walker into waiting with his superior strength) or let Walker through and go with him to help Sam.
The dilemma here being the very same that Zemo has been talking about, if you have superior strength, is it ever ok to use it to get what you want, even if you think what you want is the right thing or 'the greater good', because once you use it, you're being a bully towards someone.

[Ihavewaffles]

That's a bad comparison...since an elephant and a human aren't of comparable sizes. Super Soldiers are strong...but they are still human sized opponents. There's no reason why a judo move wouldn't be just as effective against a super soldier as it is on anyone else.

No reason except super powers?

[eschatological]

Did anyone ever stop to think the Dora Milaje were that strong in that fight......for a narrative purpose?

That purpose being to humiliate John Walker and push him to secretly take the serum which he has in his pocket, which no one else knows about?

Hell, it's even important that they're NOT super soldiers, because then he has no excuse, and his push to take the serum is complete and thorough, after a little hypothetical with his bestie.

Y'all argue this shit like it's physics and the show is a TED Talk, when it's a story trying to push certain story beats.

[tyrlaan]

Y'all argue this shit like it's physics and the show is a TED Talk, when it's a story trying to push certain story beats.

Geeks gotta geek ;-)

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

No reason except super powers?

It's not like they are the Hulk. They aren't even in the same strength category as Spider-Man. They may be stronger than normal humans...but that doesn't give them the ability to completely ignore things like leverage.

[Skulltaker]

No reason except super powers?

So you don't understand how fighting works, that has been established.

Cap, and the other super soldiers, have enhanced strength and stamina. That's about it. Everything else they display is 'trained human' level. You can simply gun them down; look what happened to Karli. If they hit you, they'll probably kill you. But first they have to hit you, and Judo is about avoiding your opponent, not to block them.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Y'all argue this shit like it's physics and the show is a TED Talk, when it's a story trying to push certain story beats.

I recall saying something similar to you about why the Dora Minaje let Zemo move to the next room. :P

[eschatological]

I recall saying something similar to you about why the Dora Minaje let Zemo move to the next room. :P

That, narratively, makes no sense. It has nothing to do with physical power levels or superpower capabilities, it's a pure story beat taken by the writers. It breaks immersion to suggest the Dora Milaje would be so distracted as to let as wiley a character as Zemo out of their eyesight.

John Walker getting his ass beat and humiliated by non-super soldiers is a story beat that serves a narrative function of pushing him to use the serum, and powerlevels are irrelevant to it.

Even if powerlevels were well defined, we have a saying in the football world, "Any given Sunday," meaning in any given week, two foes meeting where you're almost certain of the result can never be absolutely certain because you can't control all the moving parts that goes into a battle. It's like arguing that the Allies couldn't have won the Battle of the Bulge because of the logistics of the two armies fighting.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

That, narratively, makes no sense. It has nothing to do with physical power levels or superpower capabilities, it's a pure story beat taken by the writers. It breaks immersion to suggest the Dora Milaje would be so distracted as to let as wiley a character as Zemo out of their eyesight.

If they were try to grab Zemo while fighting Walker...that would automatically engage Bucky and Sam in the fight as well. That's basically like fighting a war on two fronts.

John Walker getting his ass beat and humiliated by non-super soldiers is a story beat that serves a narrative function of pushing him to use the serum, and powerlevels are irrelevant to it.

It's established elsewhere that John and Lamar would not hesitate to use the Super Soldier Serum if given the chance.

[Endus]

Honestly I don't understand all that. If Dora Milaje are capable of dealing with super soldiers 1v1 with no problem, then what's exactly the point of super soldiers ? That means that any single trained fighter with vibranium equipment is capable of doing the same feats as Captain, Black Panther and Winter Soldier. Then I don't even see the point of the Wakanda needing a Black Panther to begin with.

Who says they ever needed a Black Panther? It was primarily a status symbol, a mark of kingship, before the modern era. It wasn't something they developed because they needed it, it was a way they consistently demonstrated their supremacy.

Wakanda's aspects are so overpowered in the MCU that it's becoming sickening. Next thing you know is Shuri going 1v1 against Strange and winning fingers in the nose

Why would that even be a problem? Shuri's pretty much on the same par as Tony Stark in terms of tech proficiency.

Wakanda is the most advanced nation on the planet and it isn't even a close race. It isn't just a matter of something like American dominance, which is almost entirely economic; they are legitimately decades more technologically advanced than any other nation on the planet, if not a century or more. Wakanda going up against the US and EU would work out like one of those games of Civilization where your tank troops roll in against knights on horseback.

Go do a judo move on an elephant, endus. tell us how it went after.

The elephant's got a hell of a lot more mass. Mass is what makes the difference there, not strength. And super soldier serums don't give you much more mass (and the "much" is basically just for Steve's variant, which bulked him up a bit, nowhere close to elephant levels of mass).

If a 100lb girl does a judo throw on a 300lb weightlifter and does it correctly, the weightlifter's hitting the dirt. His strength literally will not help. Speaking as a guy who, again, was a 250lb heavy-set guy who got launched 10 feet by my buddy's girlfriend who weighed maybe 120lbs, and I also had a good 6 or 8 inches of height on her. I was a hell of a lot stronger than her, but I tried to use muscle over technique, and that's why I went for a trip.

There's a reason top martial artists don't look like body builders, dude.

[formerShandalay]

Honestly I don't understand all that. If Dora Milaje are capable of dealing with super soldiers 1v1 with no problem, then what's exactly the point of super soldiers ? That means that any single trained fighter with vibranium equipment is capable of doing the same feats as Captain, Black Panther and Winter Soldier. Then I don't even see the point of the Wakanda needing a Black Panther to begin with.

One Dora Milaje should be a no match for a super soldier, period. And if that's the Vibranium stuff they wield that make such a difference, then Infinity War's Wakanda's battle would have ended within minutes.

Wakanda's aspects are so overpowered in the MCU that it's becoming sickening. Next thing you know is Shuri going 1v1 against Strange and winning fingers in the nose

The point is, that there is indeed no point to supersoldiers, because if you make them, someone else is just going to make an Ironman suit. Tony was just a human with superior tech too and he took on 2 mega-honed battle-hardened and experienced supersoldiers and only barely lost. And before that it took all of the Avengers to dismantle some Stark Tech running amok (Ultron). Steve Rogers wasn't the boss because he was a supersoldier. That helped in fights, but that was not the reason he was so valuable. It was his tactical thinking, his wits and his empathy that made him super, not his strength.
And while Earth is killing themselves fighting over who has the superior grunts (supersoldiers), everyone else in the Universe has the superior tech in addition to being stronger and more powerful body-wise (at least the conquering societies, like the Kree).

I think the only thing you could argue as being a 'good thing' about a super soldier program would be a serum that only has the regenerative aspect. Make people more resilient and heal faster and then give it to everyone, in case there is an alien army around, give it to everyone on the planet and then pour all of your ressources into new and better tech. And maybe make some friends with other alien species and people with superpowers instead of antagonizing them. Then you have your armor around the world.

[Ihavewaffles]

The elephant's got a hell of a lot more mass. Mass is what makes the difference there, not strength. And super soldier serums don't give you much more mass (and the "much" is basically just for Steve's variant, which bulked him up a bit, nowhere close to elephant levels of mass).

If a 100lb girl does a judo throw on a 300lb weightlifter and does it correctly, the weightlifter's hitting the dirt. His strength literally will not help. Speaking as a guy who, again, was a 250lb heavy-set guy who got launched 10 feet by my buddy's girlfriend who weighed maybe 120lbs, and I also had a good 6 or 8 inches of height on her. I was a hell of a lot stronger than her, but I tried to use muscle over technique, and that's why I went for a trip.

There's a reason top martial artists don't look like body builders, dude.

it's cute how you keep going back to regular humans for your examples. But Bucky is a supe, got fighting experience, he knows of the experience of his opponents. Your example seems to be, what? Bucky would stand still n let someone throw him?

There's such a thing called take-down defense, u might have heard of it just by watching ufc.

Now, an experienced fighter, and a supe, somehow is defeated? I know ur woke, so u will never admit the absurdity of your position..