{TV} The Falcon and the Winter Soldier

[Endus]

it's cute how you keep going back to regular humans for your examples. But Bucky is a supe, got fighting experience, he knows of the experience of his opponents. Your example seems to be, what? Bucky would stand still n let someone throw him?

There's such a thing called take-down defense, u might have heard of it just by watching ufc.

Now, an experienced fighter, and a supe, somehow is defeated? I know ur woke, so u will never admit the absurdity of your position..

Super soldier serum takes you to "peak human capacity". He isn't throwing cars at people.

[Ihavewaffles]

Super soldier serum takes you to "peak human capacity". He isn't throwing cars at people.

Don't think he needs to go hulk on regular humies.

btw currently watching CA civil war, serum is way beyond regular human at peak capacity, look at capt holding a helicopter from taking away, the strain of those joints..those wakandian kittens can tussle with serum dudes? yeah, right...

[eschatological]

Sam and Bucky were always going to give Zemo back up at some point. Their goal was to bring him to justice again at some point, not just let him slip out of sight unseen as well. And as you noticed, they got involved in the fight anyways because the Dora Milaje were so ragey they were going for the kills against Walker and Hoskins. So they failed on that front regardless, and btw, still kicked all four of their asses, 3 v 4.

It's established elsewhere that John and Lamar would not hesitate to use the Super Soldier Serum if given the chance.

Established in the scene right after the fight. And even then Walker was unsure, until he got a "Hells Yeah" from his boy, and reassurance that it wouldn't affect him negatively (Hoskins was wrong, and it led directly to the events of the end of the episode).

[Endus]

Established in the scene right after the fight. And even then Walker was unsure, until he got a "Hells Yeah" from his boy, and reassurance that it wouldn't affect him negatively (Hoskins was wrong, and it led directly to the events of the end of the episode).

I'm not convinced the serum did affect John negatively.

I think it just gives you the strength to be who you really are, less reason to give a shit about whoever tells you "no, wait, stop . . ."

I think John was always the kind of guy who'd kill an enemy in a public square like that, if he thought he could get away with it. And now that he's got this strength, who's gonna stop him?

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Don't think he needs to go hulk on regular humies.

btw currently watching CA civil war, serum is way beyond regular human at peak capacity, look at capt holding a helicopter from taking away, the strain of those joints..those wakandian kittens can tussle with serum dudes? yeah, right...

They literally do in their regular training, which includes training against/with the Black Panther, who's even stronger than Cap and other super soldiers.

And yes; what you see Steve doing there is pretty near "peak human". Marvel uses that term to describe the apex of human achievement; Steve is essentially as strong as the strongest weightlifter, as agile as the best gymnast, etc. Probably a bit beyond any actual human because of how all these things come together; he can run faster than Usain Bolt because his legs are stronger and he's more agile; he can literally push further with each pace and move his legs more quickly.

Black Panther, on the other hand, is canonically stronger. When he and Bucky fight, Bucky gets a hand on T'Challa's throat, and T'challa just grabs Bucky's hand and pulls it right off.

They were also able to hold their own just fine in the battles against Thanos and his troops.

I really don't care why you're being dismissive of the Dora Milaje, whether it's because they're women or because they're African, but it's literally bullshit you're making up.

[Something Wicked]

I'm not convinced the serum did affect John negatively.

Doesn't matter what you think on the subject.

Erskine himself said it works that way; the serum doesn't just affect you physically but mentally as well, amplifying everything about you. "The serum amplifies everything that is inside, so good becomes great, bad becomes worse."

You can think whatever you want, but that's pure head canon that has no basis in (the fictional) reality.

[Darththeo]

Doesn't matter what you think on the subject.

Erskine himself said it works that way; the serum doesn't just affect you physically but mentally as well, amplifying everything about you. "The serum amplifies everything that is inside, so good becomes great, bad becomes worse."

You can think whatever you want, but that's pure head canon that has no basis in (the fictional) reality.

That wasn't the whole quote. And it is debatable if he meant that literally and not figuratively.

[Something Wicked]

That wasn't the whole quote. And it is debatable if he meant that literally and not figuratively.

Again, debate it all you want in your head. But that's all it is; head canon. It's been stated repeatedly on-screen that that's how it works. Your personal opinions to the contrary mean nothing.

[Ihavewaffles]

They literally do in their regular training, which includes training against/with the Black Panther, who's even stronger than Cap and other super soldiers.

And yes; what you see Steve doing there is pretty near "peak human". Marvel uses that term to describe the apex of human achievement; Steve is essentially as strong as the strongest weightlifter, as agile as the best gymnast, etc. Probably a bit beyond any actual human because of how all these things come together; he can run faster than Usain Bolt because his legs are stronger and he's more agile; he can literally push further with each pace and move his legs more quickly.

Black Panther, on the other hand, is canonically stronger. When he and Bucky fight, Bucky gets a hand on T'Challa's throat, and T'challa just grabs Bucky's hand and pulls it right off.

They were also able to hold their own just fine in the battles against Thanos and his troops.

I really don't care why you're being dismissive of the Dora Milaje, whether it's because they're women or because they're African, but it's literally bullshit you're making up.

Ah, there he is...woke endus dude, what have been talking about the whole time? that they are mere human.

As for black panther playing around with those kittenz..good that u made my case how powerful he is when he went up against other supes, yet all this woke stuff that they can be on par...what is exactly the point of being a supe if a non-supe can counter it? Makes as much sense as the Punisher beating the Hulk or something.

[Skulltaker]

I'm not convinced the serum did affect John negatively.

I think it just gives you the strength to be who you really are, less reason to give a shit about whoever tells you "no, wait, stop . . ."

I think John was always the kind of guy who'd kill an enemy in a public square like that, if he thought he could get away with it. And now that he's got this strength, who's gonna stop him?

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I'm not so sure he was. Ironically, I think that what made him worse was not the serum, but the shield. John is a decorated war hero, higher decorated than anyone else. 3 Medals of Honor, and probably a lot more. In any case, he can be considered the top of the field in regards of the US military. He has done some tough shit.

And now, his country gives him the chance, or rather orders him to, become THE american symbol. The Starspangled banner incarnate. He gets the parade, he probably also looked up to the real Cap to some degree. And now you have a terrorist organization that opposes everything Mr. Star Spangled Banner stands for. They are literally the antithesis to what he percieves Captain America to be. He stands for a Nation, they want to get rid of it, and others, but that's secondary to him.

So he, now Captain America, walks up to Caps former closest friends, an Avenger and Caps sidekick, people who have been feared and revered. He's got a clear purpose, and his brother in arms at his side. Maybe he expects the Avengers to rally around him, maybe not.

And they just completely dismiss him. Sam, the Falcon, the man who was entrusted with the Shield by Cap, measures him up and considers him not worth talking to. I think that really doesn't compute.

And when he, the best America has to offer, is face to face with (sorry for the colorful language) some spear-chucking people from the third world he absolutely gets his ass handed to him. It isn't even close. He must have realized that they could have ended him then and there. Imagine what that does to a man who was just named 'Your Captain America'. It's his own personal 9/11, a brutal awakening, a reminder that three Medals of Honor and the Shield mean jack shit. His entire world broke apart around him. It's enough to make everyone snap.

Don't get me wrong, it's pretty clear that John wasn't exactly a nice guy. I think he's comparable to Gilmore Hodge, the guy in Roger's unit who got floored by Peggy Carter. He's sure of himself, and rightfully so. In regards of soldiers, he's probably at the top. It's like being the fastest race horse, and then being expected to keep up with Peregrine Falcons. You don't even compete. Imagine what that does to a man who has no objection to kill.

[Berndorf]

Super soldier serum takes you to "peak human capacity". He isn't throwing cars at people.

Peak human capacity in the mcu though has seen him throwing his motorcycle like 30 feet with momentum and taking out a jeep full of soldiers or something similar and being able to push back on Thanos while he is wearing the IG along with a ton of other things no regular human would have much of any chance of replicating. In short, peak human(which is a similar thing in comics where it allows heroes like him to do things like lift a ton or two) is well above what any standard human is capable of. Even when it comes to static strength type movements vs guys who are 6-8 400lb, full of steroids and train for pure strength year round.

[Endus]

Ah, there he is...woke endus dude, what have been talking about the whole time? that they are mere human.

So are a lot of other heroes you aren't focusing on. So I'm trying to figure out why you're focusing on the Dora Milaje specifically.

As for black panther playing around with those kittenz

See, with sexist diminutives like that. That's the issue.

good that u made my case how powerful he is when he went up against other supes, yet all this woke stuff that they can be on par...what is exactly the point of being a supe if a non-supe can counter it? Makes as much sense as the Punisher beating the Hulk or something.

You realize Frank's killed the Hulk before, right?

And you realize that plenty of "normal humans" have gone toe-to-toe with super-powered individuals and done just fine, in the MCU? Even leaving aside Black Widow (because she had a serum variant in the comics, and that may come out in her solo film), there's Hawkeye, Falcon, if we just want to stick to "within normal human capacities" we could stick Rocket Raccoon in there and arguably Star-Lord too (he never really taps into his heritage in any meaningful way). If we just allow technological-tools-for-regular-folks (given that the Dora Milaje are using Wakanda tech, which is comparable), we can add Ant-Man, Iron Man, War Machine, and the Wasp.

And that's just the heroes.

[Darththeo]

Again, debate it all you want in your head. But that's all it is; head canon. It's been stated repeatedly on-screen that that's how it works. Your personal opinions to the contrary mean nothing.

As is yours, you just don't want to accept that your argument isn't a proven fact, but rather a belief characters in universe have.

What personality changes did Rogers have? None. He is still the same as the skinny boy from Brooklyn.
We know nothing of most of the Super Soldiers prior to them taking the serum.

Those with significant pre- and post- serum time are: Rogers, Barnes, and Blonsky. Soon to be Walker. Of those we know, only one seems to experience personality changes (being Blonsky). And Blonsky was not treated with the perfected serum.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Again, debate it all you want in your head. But that's all it is; head canon. It's been stated repeatedly on-screen that that's how it works. Your personal opinions to the contrary mean nothing.

This isn't actually Erskine's formula though. It's something similar but not the same.

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Don't think he needs to go hulk on regular humies.

btw currently watching CA civil war, serum is way beyond regular human at peak capacity, look at capt holding a helicopter from taking away, the strain of those joints..those wakandian kittens can tussle with serum dudes? yeah, right...

Yes they can...the same way Cap can tussle with Spider-Man...the power difference between Cap and Spider-Man is greater than the power difference between Super Soldiers and humans in prime physical condition.

[Aurrora]

Super soldier serum takes you to "peak human capacity". He isn't throwing cars at people.

That's what it was billed as in the 1941 comics. Unless we're including Spider-Man on the spectrum of human capacity he's gone well past peak in the modern era of both comics and the MCU with Steve preventing a helicopter from moving in Civil War. No matter how peak human you are you're not going to embed a blunt metal frisbee a foot deep into cinderblocks, or kick someone hard enough that they move like they were hit by a truck instead of a foot.

[Otaka]

As is yours, you just don't want to accept that your argument isn't a proven fact, but rather a belief characters in universe have.

What personality changes did Rogers have? None. He is still the same as the skinny boy from Brooklyn.
We know nothing of most of the Super Soldiers prior to them taking the serum.

Those with significant pre- and post- serum time are: Rogers, Barnes, and Blonsky. Soon to be Walker. Of those we know, only one seems to experience personality changes (being Blonsky). And Blonsky was not treated with the perfected serum.

Just give up already. Theres no reason to argue about things that have been canonically proven by trying to turn it into fanfic instead.

Noone claimed Rogers would have personality changes nor anyone else for that matter... strengthening whats there doesnt mean something changes, it means something improves... for better or for worse.
A bad person becomes a worse person, its not a change its an "improvement" or an enhancement.
Likewise a good person becomes an even better person... and this is exactly what has happened with Rogers and Walker. Ofcourse its not easy to see because rogers doesnt have a long history without the serum but walker is a prime example, hes killed people for the greater good and he will continue to do so if he thinks its necessary.
Those medals arent a sign of a perfect person, they were awarded to him for his bravery but they also remind him of his failures, this is what he said in the episode. (and the episode is canon so no reason to argue against it, he doesnt exactly cherish those medals of honor)

Theres also the quote from Captain America: 'This is why you were chosen. Because a strong man, who has known power all his life, will lose respect for that power. But a weak man knows the value of strength, and knows compassion.' Dr. Abraham Erskine
Walker was never weak, Rogers was weak.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

That's what it was billed as in the 1941 comics. Unless we're including Spider-Man on the spectrum of human capacity he's gone well past peak in the modern era of both comics and the MCU with Steve preventing a helicopter from moving in Civil War. No matter how peak human you are you're not going to embed a blunt metal frisbee a foot deep into cinderblocks, or kick someone hard enough that they move like they were hit by a truck instead of a foot.

Spider-Man isn't on the Super Soldier formula...and Cap isn't anywhere close to Spidey

[Aurrora]

Spider-Man isn't on the Super Soldier formula...and Cap isn't anywhere close to Spidey

Maybe, maybe not. We don't know Spider-man's origin in the MCU, in the Ultimates universe Spider-man was the result of trying to replicate the super soldier formula. Since they just introduced the idea that people weren't content to leave Steve as a unique page of the history books they could use that as a story hook. The point is Cap is well past peak human capacity in the real world, you're not going to find a weightlifter capable of overpowering a helicopter's engine.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Maybe, maybe not. We don't know Spider-man's origin in the MCU, in the Ultimates universe Spider-man was the result of trying to replicate the super soldier formula. Since they just introduced the idea that people weren't content to leave Steve as a unique page of the history books they could use that as a story hook. The point is Cap is well past peak human capacity in the real world, you're not going to find a weightlifter capable of overpowering a helicopter's engine.

Osborn wasn't trying to recreate the original Super Soldier Serum...he was creating a new one.

An attempt to create a new Super Soldier Serum isn't the same thing as the Super Soldier Serum that Cap got...and Ultimate Spider-Man is still stronger than Ultimate Cap.

[Aurrora]

Osborn wasn't trying to recreate the original Super Soldier Serum...he was creating a new one.

An attempt to create a new Super Soldier Serum isn't the same thing as the Super Soldier Serum that Cap got...and Ultimate Spider-Man is still stronger than Ultimate Cap.

It was based on the Super Soldier Serum, reverse engineered from Fury's blood, basically the same origin as Falcon and Winter Soldier's new serum. I'm not arguing that Spider-man isn't stronger than Cap, but Steve and all the other super soldiers are definitely far stronger than anything that would be considered peak human in reality.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

It was based on the Super Soldier Serum, reverse engineered from Fury's blood., basically the same origin as Falcon and Winter Soldier's new serum. I'm not arguing that Spider-man isn't stronger than Cap, but Steve and all the other super soldiers are definitely far stronger than anything that would be considered peak human in reality.

And the Serum Fury got isn't the same as the Serum Steve got. It was an early test version. And then Osborn reversed engineered from Fury's blood and added his own things into the mix for good measure...creating an entirely new formula. Unless you somehow missed that Spider-Man climbs walls and has low-level precognition? It's not the same formula. And then Miles got another version of Osborn's Attempts...which gave him some new powers that even Peter didn't get. And of course there's what Norman did to himself. These are all different formulas.

It's like saying a Ferrari and a Pinto are the same thing because they are both cars. Or, more fittingly, it's like saying that Humans are the same thing as gorillas because we have a common ancestor.