20 man mythic recruitment killing my guild...what about you?

[vsb]

If you take 0/10 or 2-3/10 M raiders and they are still leaving your guild then I'm sorry but there is something wrong with your guild on a social level.
Maybe 1-2 loudmouths talking stupid sh*t all the time or being toxic etc.

That's another issue of modern WoW. Get 2-3 unexperienced players in your raid and you won't kill your farm. You can't carry them (may be Limit can, but average guild can't). You have to progress on farm bosses again and that's a closed loop.

It was not like that before. I remember in WotLK when we could get few new players and just carry them through farm. Gear simplified raids a lot and that helped. Also encounters were different in terms of personal responsibility and team play requirements.

[Garymorilix]

That's another issue of modern WoW. Get 2-3 unexperienced players in your raid and you won't kill your farm. You can't carry them (may be Limit can, but average guild can't). You have to progress on farm bosses again and that's a closed loop.

It was not like that before. I remember in WotLK when we could get few new players and just carry them through farm. Gear simplified raids a lot and that helped. Also encounters were different in terms of personal responsibility and team play requirements.

Okay, so you want to progress in the long-term or just do your farm bosses?
Yes, you have to actually teach new mythic raiders how to mythic raid, what a shocker.

Believe it or not you cannot pug above 2 or maybe 3 Mythic bosses so expecting 6/10 or 8/10 players to show up out of thin air is the dumbest thing I heard.

There are tons of people who want to progress Mythic but can't because those who they could progress with think that "oh, he ain't done what I have done so he sucks dick I won't play with him".
Then these people turn around and wonder why they can't find nobody.

[Osmeric]

Just get rid of anything approaching Mythic raiding. Problem solved.

I know this would conflict with the vision some of the dev team have. Get rid of them, too.

[TickTickTick]

Reduce? Lol I miss the days of the highest difficulty being 25 man. With 20 man it never felt the same.

Mythic recruitment is hard simply because this tier is/was (depending on QoL fixes and nerfs):

- not rewarding enough
- harder than usual
- pretty boring

Hopefully the 9.1 tier will be better in all of the above (from the very begining, not 3 months into the progress).

[Marxman]

Is the content too difficult for the average player?

LFR is too difficult for the average player. It's mind-boggling how large the skill gap is between Mythic raiders and the average WoW player. Couple that with how much more difficult Mythic has gotten in the past few years, plus the increased number of people doing M+ instead of raiding... it's no wonder guilds are struggling to keep a full roster.

Mythic raiding is too difficult and has been for years. Instead of doing something about that, Blizzard seems content to design that portion of the game for the RWF, and then slowly do miniscule nerfs over the following months. It's a bad design decision for the playerbase as a whole.

[Hellobolis]

recruiting for mythic raiding has been more difficult for a couple of years now, especially if you aren't on a high pop server. it's nothing new to SL.

you simply need to be aggressive about it, look for dying guilds and poach from them, and don't look on just your own server, poach from healthy less progressed guilds if you have to. i don't really like such aggressive approaches to recruiting, but it seems to be necessary nowadays.

oh and ofc: start recruiting when you are 25 people, dont wait till you drop below that.

making a good early start each tier also helps A LOT with the quality/quantity of recruits you can find.

[Mightytasty]

Why would I Mythic raid? There’s no mounts, no tier sets, and my classes best gear comes from PvP.

My 2c.

[Hellobolis]

This would ruin Mythic raiding..

flex from 10-30 players would ruin mythic, to be sure.

but flex from 19-21 or 18-21 or something in that range? doubt it would pose any real problem while giving a lot of breathing room for struggling guilds.

[Relapses]

flex from 10-30 players would ruin mythic, to be sure.

but flex from 19-21 or 18-21 or something in that range? doubt it would pose any real problem while giving a lot of breathing room for struggling guilds.

Even a smaller flex has the same problem I mentioned. If an encounter is easier at one interval or the other it will simply become the meta to kill the boss with that number of people. If the encounter is easier with more players, it has the potential to make the current problem worse, not to mention they'd still have to flex abilities to account for changes in roster size. It just seems like an unnecessary layer of complexity on tuning and runs the risk of begging the question why bother fixing what isn't broken.

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Just get rid of anything approaching Mythic raiding. Problem solved.

I know this would conflict with the vision some of the dev team have. Get rid of them, too.

Nice to see you using this as yet another opportunity to share with us your desire to make WoW a game that isn't WoW.

[MrKnubbles]

That's actually what happened to my guild as well. We were struggling to get a few more players to fill our roster and eventually people got sick of wiping with pugs or not even being able to step into Mythic so they either server transferred or just quit. First, a tank transferred so we replaced him. Then, a great healer of ours just quit without saying a word which discouraged our main tank and GM so he said he's taking a break until 9.1. After that, we were just done.

[Hellobolis]

Even a smaller flex has the same problem I mentioned. If an encounter is easier at one interval or the other it will simply become the meta to kill the boss with that number of people. If the encounter is easier with more players, it has the potential to make the current problem worse, not to mention they'd still have to flex abilities to account for fewer/more players. It just seems like an unnecessary layer of complexity on tuning and runs the risk of begging the question why bother fixing what isn't broken.

no it won't. blizzard isn't THAT bad at encounter design. sure you will run into the occasional boss where this will be the case, but by and large having 1 player more or less won't cause any issues.

worst case they have to stop designing extremely complex positional mechanics like you see once in a while, but i honestly doubt anyone will miss those. and no i'm not talking about stuff like on denatrius where 2 finesse spawn on ranged and 1 on melee, but if 1 person is dead 2 spawn on melee and 1 on ranged, that can easily be coded in such a way that you won't get variation with 1 player more.

if you really think its a problem, just make it flex only for the first half of the raid, cause that's really the only part of the raid with a lot of these struggling guilds anyways. guilds that get cutting edge usually have their recruitment in order.

[enigma77]

I don't have these kinds of problems but I think in general Mythic is too difficult. It should be the hardest difficulty sure, but it doesn't have to be that hard.

[Azerate]

Had it not been for streaming and hype generation, mythic would have already been axed from the game. Barely anyone is able to do it, or at least clear it completely. It requires not only great command of your characters, but also very good coordination, usually with the usage of 3rd party tools, and also devotion of a lot of time to preparation, which often includes spending real money. Not to mention the upkeep of alts that's been made a fad by the top guilds doing split runs.

I eagearly await the moment, when keeping mythic difficulty of the raids in is no longer profitable in any way and it gets removed. The overall quality of the game will improve and we will also get some sweet elitist tears on the forums.

At this moment already, the vast majority of wow servers have like 1-2 guilds tops that actually have significant progress in the mythic difficulty. This will probably drop and drop as time passes by.

[BossManRoth]

I think this late in the raid tier (even though we don't know when the next patch is) you guys might not be a cutting edge guild. and thats ok. 8/10 mythic is really good for being a new guild. our raid group had to deal with this decision just last week. this our first xpac where we took mythic anywhere near seriously. recruitment is hard right now (sorry we are also on thrall so we are actually directly competing). if you cant field the 20 man group right now its probably best not to stress out the group with constantly either a) not having the people or b)pugging in people that leave after one pull. take a step back, figure out retention (this is obviously the biggest problem) and recruit for next tier. as others have said, mythic isnt going anywhere and there will be more cutting edge achievements to earn. build your foundation stronger and people will come.

[kaelix1]

I don't know what the solution could be, but recruiting 20+ people for core and bench is starting to look like an impossible task at this very moment. I would even speculate it's easier to recruit 40 people in classic than it is to recruit 20 people for mythic in retail at the moment, and that's quite ridiculous.

My solution proposal would be obvious, reduce the number of people required for mythic content. 15? 10? again, this is the only thing I can really think of, as making mythic content scale-like LFR, normal, and heroic does would just be a balancing nightmare.

We are on a "full" pop server, US Thrall with plenty of people. The problem is related to not enough talent being out there to fill the roles. Is the content too difficult for the average player? is Raider.IO part of the problem? again, I don't know what the solution could possibly be, but there's definitely something going on with recruitment that is making it really hard to make a consistent roster.

There is nothing to speculate or its ridiculous, 40m raiding is dog shit easy compare with the current raiding mythic, the problem you mention had nothing to do with 20m, its a problem we had since vanilla, there are not enough skilled players to fill up all the guilds that want to step up the difficulty, lower the numbers of players mythic raid need will change nothing

You have some options tho

1-Lower the requirements your guild ask from players and start 'training' lower skill level players in hoping you can find unpolish gems
2-Make your guild more attractive for players to join (last serious and organize guild i was offered everything raid related free from repair to pots and other shit you needed)

[ZazuuPriest]

He stated to reduce it to 10 or 15 players so its you who didnt read what he posted, 20 players is the perfect balance for a raid so if guilds are unable to gather enough players they just are not suited to raid mythic.

even without scaling some bosses are always easier or harder.

if 20 people were the perfect balance for raids the meta for normal and heroic would be 20 people but its obviously easier to raid 2-2-6 or 2-3-9/10 especially from a logistical standpoint.

[Relapses]

no it won't. blizzard isn't THAT bad at encounter design. sure you will run into the occasional boss where this will be the case, but by and large having 1 player more or less won't cause any issues.

worst case they have to stop designing extremely complex positional mechanics like you see once in a while, but i honestly doubt anyone will miss those. and no i'm not talking about stuff like on denatrius where 2 finesse spawn on ranged and 1 on melee, but if 1 person is dead 2 spawn on melee and 1 on ranged, that can easily be coded in such a way that you won't get variation with 1 player more.

if you really think its a problem, just make it flex only for the first half of the raid, cause that's really the only part of the raid with a lot of these struggling guilds anyways. guilds that get cutting edge usually have their recruitment in order.

All of these fringe cases you're introducing into the equation aren't necessary right now. Looking from another angle, why bother having to go through all these extra steps for tuning/encounter design when the current system isn't so inherently broken that it necessitates such a change? Logistics are a part of the Mythic raiding experience whether you want to acknowledge it or not.

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Had it not been for streaming and hype generation, mythic would have already been axed from the game. Barely anyone is able to do it, or at least clear it completely. It requires not only great command of your characters, but also very good coordination, usually with the usage of 3rd party tools, and also devotion of a lot of time to preparation, which often includes spending real money. Not to mention the upkeep of alts that's been made a fad by the top guilds doing split runs.

I eagearly await the moment, when keeping mythic difficulty of the raids in is no longer profitable in any way and it gets removed. The overall quality of the game will improve and we will also get some sweet elitist tears on the forums.

At this moment already, the vast majority of wow servers have like 1-2 guilds tops that actually have significant progress in the mythic difficulty. This will probably drop and drop as time passes by.

The RWF being more and more popular every tier pretty much ensures Mythic raiding isn't going anywhere any time soon. This is a ridiculous outlook.

[Hinastorm]

This would ruin Mythic raiding. Say an encounter is easier with 17-players and the WF people kill it with 17? Guess what: Every fucking rekill will be 17 players, even if you have a 27 player roster. Same goes if for whatever reason the encounter is easier with 30 players. Suddenly if you can't get 30 players to kill the boss, it's not worth pulling. Not only that, now you're hamstringing the encounter design department because no longer can they create raid mechanics that can be reasonably handled by a set group of players, every. single. thing. must be able to be flexed. This is why they got rid of the 10/25M duality from Cata/MoP. So you'd essentially be bringing back worse-designed encounters and forcing a truly degenerate meta on the game because your smug opinion about logistics and raiding is somehow more important than the quality of the raids themselves. This has nothing to do with "1%ers" or whatever imaginary arguments you want to invent. It will not be healthy for raiding.

It would ruin it for you. It's not healthy for the hardcore 1% guilds. Otherwise it's a good idea.

Having the raiding game make sense is FAR more important than thinking about what WF people are doing.

So many on this forum are completely ok with 1%ers being catered to at the expense of the majority, and i'm tired of it.

I'm sick of clearing heroic then not being able to even do mythic cause we're a smaller guild. We're FAR from alone.

[kaminaris]

Make is 10 man and suddenly people want to raid again. There is reason why 10 mans were vastly more popular, because nobody wants to deal with HR stuff after work.

That or stop caring about top and make it flex.

[AkundaMrdal]

OR... don't wait until this late in the patch to recruit for Mythic.

Great advice, but guilds usually recruit late in patches because a lot of people stoped playing, especially now because 9.1 will realease god knows when.