{TV} The Falcon and the Winter Soldier

[Something Wicked]

Question: When Steve got injected with the serum, they gave him like, what? 6 doses? Does the dosage affect how much stronger the person gets? Cause Walker only took 1.

Technically none of them should be as "peak" as Steve Rogers is, because they all failed to include the really important part: The exposure to a massive dose of Vita Rays. Whatever those are supposed to be.

[tyrlaan]

Technically none of them should be as "peak" as Steve Rogers is, because they all failed to include the really important part: The exposure to a massive dose of Vita Rays. Whatever those are supposed to be.

Well, do we know exactly how they "dosed up" Barnes? And we don't know how the serum has been changed over the years; arguably vita rays are not necessary anymore.

[Something Wicked]

Well, do we know exactly how they "dosed up" Barnes? And we don't know how the serum has been changed over the years; arguably vita rays are not necessary anymore.

Not disagreeing at all. In my mind, they were needed for him more because of just how scrawny he was to begin with, while the vast majority of other subjects were already in really good health. But that has no real backing in anything.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Not disagreeing at all. In my mind, they were needed for him more because of just how scrawny he was to begin with, while the vast majority of other subjects were already in really good health. But that has no real backing in anything.

I don't think that's the case really. All of the other candidates in Steve's program were men of exceptional fitness...but they all would have undergone the same treatment Steve did. The Vita rays were just to activate the Serum.

The Serum these guys are getting is not the same serum Steve got though. It's probably closer to the version that Emil Blonsky (The Abomination) got. Blonsky's shot didn't seem to require Vita Rays either.

[Ihavewaffles]

So are a lot of other heroes you aren't focusing on. So I'm trying to figure out why you're focusing on the Dora Milaje specifically.

are u really questioning why we are talking about the characters in the show?

You realize Frank's killed the Hulk before, right?

I couldn't give a shit about some no-name issue marvel comics company going down the drains desperately sold. Talk about having no imagination if that's what they did. I said the punisher as a joke, and then you reply proudly that marvel would sink that low as if ur making some kind of argument.

It's obvious marvel doesn't care about the rules of the universe they set up themselves. No wonder nobody buys their shit anymore..

If it wasn't for the movies n the old stories, nobody would even talk about marvel today.

[Darththeo]

Just give up already. Theres no reason to argue about things that have been canonically proven by trying to turn it into fanfic instead.

Because it hasn't. Characters stating what they believe to be true =/= being true.

Seriously, you even quote how it is a personality change. A strong man will lose respect for the power ... what do you think that means? Seriously. And the reason I use personality is because it what if you look up on the MCU Wiki uses that the serum causes changes in personality.

You're own post proves you don't even understand the canon enough to post.

[Volardelis]

That wasn't the whole quote. And it is debatable if he meant that literally and not figuratively.

Most likely means literally. We have seen examples of other people taking the serum or different versions of it and it affected them negatively in terms of their personality. From Blonsky in The Incredible Hulk (I made a comparison between him and walker earlier) to the other 'Winter Soldiers' Hydra tried to create with the Serum they got when Bucky killed Howard Stark. Who's to say that this ultimate perfected version is any different? I'm also sure the guy who originally made the serum and saw how it affected the Red Skull would know the dangers of it. Which was why he chose Steve long before Steve had passed the trials. As shown with his conversations with Tommy Lee Jones' character in the First Avenger. Where the latter wanted to basically pick a guy like Walker while Erskine was against the idea because that guy was ultimately a bully.

[Illusions]

Man the mental gymnastics some people go through to justify their probable sexism and racism.

One addition I've liked is also that Winter Soldier Bucky has no regard for others and does his mission as effectively as possible, hence why in Civil War or Winter Soldier he was strong enough to be the villain / part villain etc, however when not in the Winter Soldier state he won't go all out, something something good guy human compassion and so on. He's not really the Winter Soldier any more, so he holds back more.

[Volardelis]

Question: When Steve got injected with the serum, they gave him like, what? 6 doses? Does the dosage affect how much stronger the person gets? Cause Walker only took 1.

Keep in mind that the dosage Walker took was from the 'ultimate perfected version' where it becomes more subtle. Would also be because Erskine had just completed his version (Red Skull took a beta version) so that could explain why Steve needed more. Could also be because of Steves physical body as well. Where Steve was a really skinny, runty guy. The other people we have seen that have taken the serums since then are either regular people with average body types or trained fighters / assassins.

[cuafpr]

i always figured the stuff Capt got was better as it bulked him up but others seem more or less the same size physically so therefore not as potent or strength enhancing. I say this as someone that doesn't read the comics so I have no issues being wrong just the opinion of a movie watcher.

and yes Bucky was holding back it's obvious.

[TheramoreIsTheBomb]

Question: When Steve got injected with the serum, they gave him like, what? 6 doses? Does the dosage affect how much stronger the person gets? Cause Walker only took 1.

i think so and it enhances the strength and the person's morality according to which side they're on so it made cap not only stronger but also more good while redskull became more twisted and evil. think of the force in star wars with light side enlightenment and dark side corruption

[tyrlaan]

are u really questioning why we are talking about the characters in the show?



I couldn't give a shit about some no-name issue marvel comics company going down the drains desperately sold. Talk about having no imagination if that's what they did. I said the punisher as a joke, and then you reply proudly that marvel would sink that low as if ur making some kind of argument.

It's obvious marvel doesn't care about the rules of the universe they set up themselves. No wonder nobody buys their shit anymore..

If it wasn't for the movies n the old stories, nobody would even talk about marvel today.

You can stop watching their stuff any time.

[Endus]

I couldn't give a shit about some no-name issue marvel comics company going down the drains desperately sold. Talk about having no imagination if that's what they did. I said the punisher as a joke, and then you reply proudly that marvel would sink that low as if ur making some kind of argument.

It's obvious marvel doesn't care about the rules of the universe they set up themselves. No wonder nobody buys their shit anymore..

If it wasn't for the movies n the old stories, nobody would even talk about marvel today.

Marvel is massively successful as a company. "If it wasn't for their most successful products, nobody would talk about them today". That's like arguing "if it weren't for Mac laptops and ipads and iphones, nobody would talk about Apple today." Just absolutely frickin' ludicrous.

You made a comment that betrayed how little you know about the source material. In trying to defend a position that the films have already canonically demonstrated to be false in a myriad of ways, both generally and in specific (namely, that the Dora Milaje are just normal people and therefore can't handle fighting superhumans).

[Darththeo]

Most likely means literally. We have seen examples of other people taking the serum or different versions of it and it affected them negatively in terms of their personality. From Blonsky in The Incredible Hulk (I made a comparison between him and walker earlier) to the other 'Winter Soldiers' Hydra tried to create with the Serum they got when Bucky killed Howard Stark. Who's to say that this ultimate perfected version is any different? I'm also sure the guy who originally made the serum and saw how it affected the Red Skull would know the dangers of it. Which was why he chose Steve long before Steve had passed the trials. As shown with his conversations with Tommy Lee Jones' character in the First Avenger. Where the latter wanted to basically pick a guy like Walker while Erskine was against the idea because that guy was ultimately a bully.

That's why I said it is debatable. You can read it as literal, if you do it is clear he is also then literally talking about changes in personality (ie losing respect for the power ... that's a personality change.) Or you can read it figuratively where it isn't the serum doing it directly but rather something that happens with the person based on their personality.

I am dealing with people who think I am arguing that it is "100% figurative" when my argument is "It wasn't proven to be literal." It may be literal, it may not be. The story doesn't need it to be one way or the other and keeping it vague allows people to come to their own conclusions on the characters.

[Ihavewaffles]

Marvel is massively successful as a company. "If it wasn't for their most successful products, nobody would talk about them today". That's like arguing "if it weren't for Mac laptops and ipads and iphones, nobody would talk about Apple today." Just absolutely frickin' ludicrous.

A comics company that relies on some film makers decided to indulge their old comics content...if people read comics at all today is anime n stuff. I'd call that a big fail

You made a comment that betrayed how little you know about the source material. In trying to defend a position that the films have already canonically demonstrated to be false in a myriad of ways, both generally and in specific (namely, that the Dora Milaje are just normal people and therefore can't handle fighting superhumans).

hah, it was your position that they could fight superhumans for how many posts now?

[Endus]

A comics company that relies on some film makers decided to indulge their old comics content...if people read comics at all today is anime n stuff. I'd call that a big fail

Marvel is not "a comics company". They include the films as much as anything else.

Nor is their comics branch struggling to begin with. Print comics are doing just fine these days; 2020's been a bad year but that's pretty much entirely due to some issues with distribution directly connected to COVID-19, not the fandom.

https://www.cbr.com/2019-comic-book-sales-record-high/

hah, it was your position that they could fight superhumans for how many posts now?

Did you not understand what you quoted? That remains my position. What the canon demonstrates to be conclusively false is your impression that they couldn't.

Because they have. Multiple times before.

[s_bushido]

Nor is their comics branch struggling to begin with. Print comics are doing just fine these days; 2020's been a bad year but that's pretty much entirely due to some issues with distribution directly connected to COVID-19, not the fandom.

https://www.cbr.com/2019-comic-book-sales-record-high/

I just don't understand where the narrative that comics are a failing industry comes from in the first place. Is it literally just the "go woke, go broke" crowd desperately wishing that was true? Because otherwise, I can see no point in believing it whatsoever.

[Endus]

I just don't understand where the narrative that comics are a failing industry comes from in the first place. Is it literally just the "go woke, go broke" crowd desperately wishing that was true? Because otherwise, I can see no point in believing it whatsoever.

That's pretty much it, yeah.

They've really never had anything to back it up other than the utterly baseless "go woke, get broke" mantra. Which speaks to their own personal moral failings more than it says anything about the comics industry, or any other.

[Kyphael]

I just don't understand where the narrative that comics are a failing industry comes from in the first place. Is it literally just the "go woke, go broke" crowd desperately wishing that was true? Because otherwise, I can see no point in believing it whatsoever.

It makes no sense from a business standpoint. Marvel probably sells more comics now than ever thanks to their films making their character household names. Marvel comics were actually almost going bankrupt in the late 90's to early 2000's due to low comic sales, which is why they had to sell most of their titles to movie studios to just stay afloat. Now that they turned B-list heroes like Iron Man, Thor, and Captain America into Batman & Superman-level properties, their comics likely sell more than ever thanks to even general audiences probably checking out their comic titles.

Imagine what Wandavision must have done for House of M and other Scarlet Witch comics that were likely not as valuable.

I will say I see the point of the argument that makes sense. Cancel culture can be creatively stifling since everything has to be PG, especially with Disney owning Marvel and dictating their stories. They can't do Black Label stories like DC does with say, Three Jokers. It's a moot point though. If Marvel wants to make children their target audience, and are making more money now than ever, one can't argue with their success.

[Nadiru]

Marvel was putting out absolute garbage and going broke for decades before Disney scooped them up. Whatever failings Marvel has as a business, they're not related to going woke.