Another "I can't breath" death: Police Reform & Protests in the USA

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

I think is is more on the order of 200 years from now, someone tears down a statue of Obama because his drone policy sometimes killed migrants so regardless of what good he also did we're not allowed to celebrate him.

People are complicated. Very few of us are all good or all bad. Sometimes, we stop celebrating someone because the good they did was exaggerated/fabricated, and the bad significantly downplayed (like Christopher Columbus). Sometimes it's because the "good" they did was entirely subjective, being intentionally at the expense of other people (like most of the "heroes" of the Confederacy). But sometimes, someone was generally a good person, but also did some bad things. Maybe they engaged in something that was considered fine then, but isn't considered fine now. Maybe they were even bothered by it at the time. Is it right to let the evils they committed outweigh the good that they did? Is it right to judge the men of yesterday by the morals of today? Is it fair to hold people who are no longer alive to defend themselves to an impossibly high standard purely so we can pat ourselves on the back and tell ourselves we're good people for holding them to account?

You are literally making a "What about all the good things Hitler did" argument.



Although my personal favourite is "Say what you want about Hitler... but at least he killed Hitler"

[Themius]

Not in academic fields. Ancient Greece, along with Ancient Rome, are the origin points for "Western Civilization" in general. There hasn't been a time in history when Greece wouldn't qualify.

And I really don't give a shit about the ever-changing chimera that is "whiteness", constantly redefined by racists to exclude whoever they've decided to hate this decade. It's also excluded the Irish, Italians, Spaniards, Slavs, at various times.



Again, Greeks are part of that same group. "We all".

If I were to accept that colonialism was still rampant. Which, y'know, nah.

There was a time when Irish and Latinos were all grouped together... until America bestowed on the Irish the honour of being white

Whiteness is ever changing... i suspect once whites become a through minority in America they'll expand the group once again.

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The only reason any local/state governments act is because there's local/state pressure.

Seriously, you don't have anything to fear from sailboats full of ess jay dubyas washing up on your shores (or cycling across the border) and telling you to remove a statue. And if they do, you can have a laugh and tell them to fuck off.

I want to know what historical basis he's using for:

The evil left anglosphere USA/UK mainly... are going to try and implement global leftist movements!!!

Like what?!!! They've been involved in DESTROYING THEM and installing the very opposite government. Like are we on the same planet with Stelio? Is there some alternate dimension where the USA is going around toppling capitalism and creating communist unions all over the world?

[Stelio Kontos]

Not in academic fields. Ancient Greece, along with Ancient Rome, are the origin points for "Western Civilization" in general. There hasn't been a time in history when Greece wouldn't qualify.

And I really don't give a shit about the ever-changing chimera that is "whiteness", constantly redefined by racists to exclude whoever they've decided to hate this decade. It's also excluded the Irish, Italians, Spaniards, Slavs, at various times.



Again, Greeks are part of that same group. "We all".

If I were to accept that colonialism was still rampant. Which, y'know, nah.

We were colonized, not colonizers. We got conquered and enslaved, we didn't go out with the British, the French, the Americans, and the Canadians doing that to others. We had that shit done to us. Our roots might be western, but our national experience has been nothing like western Europe. At least within the last 1000 years.

Culturally, I have very little in common with a Brit, a Canadian, or a German. Religiously even less so, considering how the Orthodox church has never been considered a western branch of Christianity.

That's a debate for another topic, and it's one Greeks often disagree with each other about. I couldn't give less of a fuck what you heard in Canadian academia. It produced you, after all.

No offense, of course. But let's not derail the thread further on this. My point was these ideas will get exported just like all the previous ones got exported outside north America and western Europe.

[Themius]

We were colonized, not colonizers. We got conquered and enslaved, we didn't go out with the British, the French, the Americans, and the Canadians doing that to others. We had that shit done to us. Our roots might be western, but our national experience has been nothing like western Europe. At least within the last 1000 years.

Culturally, I have very little in common with a Brit, a Canadian, or a German. Religiously even less so, considering how the Orthodox church has never been considered a western branch of Christianity.

That's a debate for another topic, and it's one Greeks often disagree with each other about. I couldn't give less of a fuck what you heard in Canadian academia. It produced you, after all.

No offense, of course. But let's not derail the thread further on this. My point was these ideas will get exported just like all the previous ones got exported outside north America and western Europe.

Why don't you just say you have no clue what you're talking about, and stop talking about it?

[Endus]

We were colonized, not colonizers. We got conquered and enslaved, we didn't go out with the British, the French, the Americans, and the Canadians doing that to others. We had that shit done to us. Our roots might be western, but our national experience has been nothing like western Europe. At least within the last 1000 years.

Again, you are Western Europe. And always have been. You're drawing a false distinction.

Also, who did Canada "conquer and enslave"? Note that I'm not going to accept anything that occurred prior to 1867 as a reasonable answer.

Culturally, I have very little in common with a Brit, a Canadian, or a German. Religiously even less so, considering how the Orthodox church has never been considered a western branch of Christianity.

And the average Brit has just as little in common with Germans, Spaniards, or Italians. And each of them with each of each other. Congrats; you've understood that the various cultures of Europe have differences. Greek culture isn't unique in that. They're the same as literally everyone else in that.

That's a debate for another topic, and it's one Greeks often disagree with each other about. I couldn't give less of a fuck what you heard in Canadian academia. It produced you, after all.

I'm not talking about Canadian academia alone. Hell, that isn't really a "thing". Academic discourse is fundamentally international/extranational.

[Stelio Kontos]

Why don't you just say you have no clue what you're talking about, and stop talking about it?

Sorry, sweetness, but I do know very well how your guys' governments act. I saw their effects in my region of the world, from the conflict in Cyprus to the wars during the breakup of Yugoslavia, to the refugee situation YOUR governments created in Libya and Syria that other countries are paying for. You like to think there's some neat, tidy difference between your ideas and the other side's tripe that's spewed out of your countries, but there's no difference.

[Themius]

Sorry, sweetness, but I do know ver well how your guys' governments act. I saw their effects in my region of the world, from the conflict in Cyprus to the wars during the breakup of Yugoslavia, to the refugee situation YOUR governments created in Libya and Syria that other countries are paying for. You like to think there's some neat, tidy difference between your ideas and the other tripe that's spewed out of your countries, but there's no difference.

Do you think our government is in the space of playing "leftist world police" because honey... we are not. So this little paranoid spell of yours that the USA is going to forcibly spread leftist ideas is both bogus, and hilarious.

I mean we're fucking giving weapons to Saudis to bomb Yemen and are backing an embargo that is projected to starve 400k children alone to death let alone the adults. You think that's the government that's going to say take down statues?

Weird how you want to erase the people who are rallying and speak about governments..almost like you don't give two shits about the voices of the minorities themselves, because to you they do not matter.

[Rozz]

I'm partly to blame myself, but we are getting way off track. Enough about foreign statues, we're just getting needlessly into tangents and personal affairs.

[Stelio Kontos]

Weird how you want to erase the people who are rallying and speak about governments..almost like you don't give two shits about the voices of the minorities themselves, because to you they do not matter.

They matter to me about as much as I matter to them. Not at all. Solidarity can't be one way. And I've yet to see any of these political groups protesting Turkey's treatment of the Kurds, or what was done during the various genocides Turkey's committed. So why should I support them? My grandfather was a slave, in 1913. Not the 1860s. 1913. My "aunt", not by blood, but my mother's best friend, was a refugee from the Greek pogroms in Istanbul during the 1950s. Full on pogrom, people being driven from their homes with just the clothes on their backs, and they were the lucky ones, they lived.

But magically here I'm the great white oppressor who's to blame for everyone else's problems.

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I'm partly to blame myself, but we are getting way off track. Enough about foreign statues, we're just getting needlessly into tangents and personal affairs.

it was my mistake for looking at threads in the echo chamber. Carry on, I'll stop my part on derailing it, barring anyone else keeping things going.

[Ivanstone]

We were colonized, not colonizers.

Alexander the Great would like a word with you.

[Stelio Kontos]

Alexander the Great would like a word with you.

If we're going back that far then no one is a victim, no one at all.

[Ivanstone]

If we're going back that far then no one is a victim, no one at all.

True but the Greeks have a very, very long history and its filled with many great things and many bad things. Some of each can still be felt to this day.

[Krakan]

If we're going back that far then no one is a victim, no one at all.

I think they imagine themselves as the soul beings capable of evil.. at least that is what it seems. The strangest part is the west really comes off as one of the most noble and selfless civilizations in history....barring maybe the Japanese but that's arguing isolationism vs colonialism more then morality.

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Looks like another riot in Minneapolis. Black suspect fleeing from a stolen vehicle was shot and looting started. Looks like wal mart is already looted but they are on the move jumping through live streams right now.

Looks like the seasons started this year.

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So far foot locker and little Caesars has fallen. Not many fires yet though will keep updates going till I turn in got some popcorn going.

[postman1782]

I think they imagine themselves as the soul beings capable of evil.. at least that is what it seems. The strangest part is the west really comes off as one of the most noble and selfless civilizations in history....barring maybe the Japanese but that's arguing isolationism vs colonialism more then morality.

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Looks like another riot in Minneapolis. Black suspect fleeing from a stolen vehicle was shot and looting started. Looks like wal mart is already looted but they are on the move jumping through live streams right now.

Looks like the seasons started this year.

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So far foot locker and little Caesars has fallen. Not many fires yet though will keep updates going till I turn in got some popcorn going.

Again, because someone is fleeing, doesn't give you the fucking right to systematically murder someone. In fact, if someone was fleeing from your house that they just robbed, and you shot them, you would be charged with murder as well.

[Themius]

Again, because someone is fleeing, doesn't give you the fucking right to systematically murder someone. In fact, if someone was fleeing from your house that they just robbed, and you shot them, you would be charged with murder as well.

Unless the Da doesn’t care and just lets the crime go. Which makes me question...

What is the next step in the Breonna Taylor case... the da lied... is it just over?

[Krakan]

Again, because someone is fleeing, doesn't give you the fucking right to systematically murder someone. In fact, if someone was fleeing from your house that they just robbed, and you shot them, you would be charged with murder as well.

Was shot while fleeing in a vehicle but I'm not disagreeing just enjoying a beer watching my favorite seasonal reality show. Kinda kicking it off with a bang police scanner reported a cop being ran over with a mini van. Serious condition.

[postman1782]

Unless the Da doesn’t care and just lets the crime go. Which makes me question...

What is the next step in the Breonna Taylor case... the da lied... is it just over?

At this rate, since the Kentucky AG is Republican, pretty much it is over.

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Was shot while fleeing in a vehicle but I'm not disagreeing just enjoying a beer watching my favorite seasonal reality show. Kinda kicking it off with a bang police scanner reported a cop being ran over with a mini van. Serious condition.

Again, unless he was using that car as a weapon attempting to run over someone, be it pedestrian or cop, you still can't systemically murder someone.

[Krakan]

At this rate, since the Kentucky AG is Republican, pretty much it is over.

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Again, unless he was using that car as a weapon attempting to run over someone, be it pedestrian or cop, you still can't systemically murder someone.

No videos leaked yet so can't say. I agree with you unless he posed a danger to someone else. I'm simply enjoy the riot and watching local businesses pay for their sins.

[Mayhem]

Because we're talking about Westerners here. It's *always* a matter of time until you start forcing your beliefs on others. Yesterday it was Protestantism and colonialism, or using murder and coups to put in pro-Western governments. It's always just a matter of time until you people start forcing what you think onto others.

Weird that you are condemning this while celebrating national "heroes" that did just that.

[DarkTZeratul]

You are literally making a "What about all the good things Hitler did" argument.

I'm emphatically NOT, which I would have thought would be obvious from my specific exclusions of the likes of Columbus and Confederates. My argument is more whether we should let one evil deed overshadow all the good someone has done, such that we cannot celebrate a man who has done any wrong? George Washington's contributions go without saying, yet because he owned slaves many would say his accomplishments are irrelevant in light of that fact. Ephraim McDowell pioneered many modern surgical techniques, and is known as "the father of ovariotomy" for being the first person to successfully remove an ovarian tumor, but at least one person here has emphatically argued that he should be castigated and compared to Josef Mengele because he operated on slaves, who were incapable of consenting to his then-untested surgeries that saved their lives. The San Francisco school board voted to strip Abraham Lincoln and Dianne Feinstein's names from the schools that bore them; the former because he didn't commute the sentences of EVERY Native American prisoner after the Dakota Uprising (only 80% of them), the latter because as mayor she once ordered that a Confederate flag that had been torn down from a government installation be put back up (despite later replacing it with a Union flag after consulting city officials).

It's an argument about balance and perspective. There is no valid perspective in which Hitler wasn't an evil fuckstain. There is no valid perspective in which Christopher Columbus didn't ravage the land and its people for personal profit to a degree that was considered heinous even in his day. But there are valid perspectives that George Washington was a key figure in the founding of the United States and a great statesman, that Ephraim McDowell's surgical techniques saved countless lives, that Abraham Lincoln's efforts in the Civil War saw the end of slavery. Don't ignore the wrongs they committed, but at the same time don't use them to ignore the good they did and call it "justice." It is better and more honest to say, "George Washington did great things for our country, but he also owned slaves" than to say "George Washington owned slaves, the rest is irrelevant."

Now, since this seems to be wildly off-topic for the thread, let me steer us back on topic with this fun little gem that came out of Boston a couple days ago:
https://www.businessinsider.com/bost...olester-2021-4

Back in 1995, a 12-year-old boy accused a police officer of sexually abusing him. He was pressured into recanting his accusation, and the investigation was dropped the following year. The officer not only continued but escalated his abuse, continued working as a police officer for another 20 years, and even served as head of the local police union a few years ago. This officer was arrested in August after sexually abusing a young girl... Who was the daughter of the boy he molested 25 years ago.