Artifact Power is gone: Anima are garrison/order/war resources redux

[huth]

The problem with the Anima grind is it lacks an acceleration that Artifact/Azerite Power had. It does not need to be as steep as the Legion/BfA AP ones were, but it should be there.

There is no acceleration in collection because there is no increase in cost. You still need the exact same 1000 anima per week you needed in week 1.

[baskev]

One thing that comes up a lot when thinking about what is off about SL is that the AP grind is as bad as ever. I've been guilty thinking that myself. But the AP of Legion/BfA is nearly gone; Anima gives no player power beyond the catchup covenant armor upgrades. It is instead very similar to resources.

I think a lot of people are happy to see the AP grind gone, but initially in SL it felt like it was just replaced by anima, and I think that's because you needed to grind 1k anima every week to keep up with Renown. Now that "catchup" renown is fully in force, ie the two weekly quests are just two of many ways to get renown, we can see that Anima has close to zero effect on player power. It is now an expanded version of resources that gives you base upgrades, but also mounts and cosmetics.

But maybe AP didn't go completely away? There *is* a grindable currency that has a direct effect on player power: Soul Ash. Grinding Torghast for Soul Ash is very comparable to grinding Expeditions for Azerite; an actually necessary chore that you're "forced" to do. Soul Ash is at the very least a much lesser grind than AP, as there's a "soft cap" of 5150 to max out your best legendary, which is about 10 runs on layer 8 for any alts you want to get up to speed.

I think the discussion about the pros and cons of SL can be clarified a lot by recognizing Soul Ash as the new AP, and Anima as the new garrison resources.

Nope. I think many of the extra resources are pointless in this in this expansion btw ( start of the expansion and we have already more then any had at the end of its run time :S).

But nope.

Soul ash is not a "AP" "grind" . once you have your 2 legendary's you are done. No endless grinds. you can have your 2 legendary's already.

as for Anima being the new garrison resources...again NOPE. Those where way easyier to get ( garrison resources). You could build a lot with it. And had a automatic stream comming in. And you could be done once you have everything. And everything gave a lot of fun/cool stuff.
Anima is nothing like garrison resources.
First of the collection of garrison resources was WAY faster. And secondly what you could get for it was way cheaper. things where ( expect the big garrison expansion) around 50 to 300 garrison resources ( most things). That was like a treasure chest or rare or quest reward ( or 3). Do you know what you can get for 300 , some garrisong ear that is outdated real fast. and it quickly goes tot 500-1000+ to buy stuff. and you need reps, and sometimes other resources to get it. ON top of that, where in dreanor you could do little to "farm" the resources ( or get them for free). you can kill several "rare's" and do 3 or 4 ( and if you have bad luck with 35/70 anima wq) and you do not even come close to it.

Do not get me wrong i dislike anima. But your comparisons are really bad.
my titans did you even play those expansions?


Man i miss garrisons....really i do.

[paxen]

Do not get me wrong i dislike anima. But your comparisons are really bad.
my titans did you even play those expansions?

You are pretty far off. For one, Soul Ash is not the same as AP, yes, but I said it's the closest thing SL has.

And secondly, Anima buys you a whole ton of stuff just now in the first patch (while you're apparently comparing it to everything you could buy for resources across three expansions). There's no garrison cache, but there wasn't any garrison cache after wod, was there? You don't get much from the adventuring table, but again, that was a wod-ism after you optimized your crew. In Legion I was heavily into the table, and I had to go out and get resources quite a bit, mostly from WQs (with follower with proper eqiupment - which again, wasn't much of in 7.0.whatever). Anima *is* the resource of SL. It's not the same as resources were in wod/legion/bfa, but then again, resources were not at all a constant across those three expansions either.

[cparle87]

My main and two alts has just above 110k anima sitting in them in total atm, nothing worth spending them on and since I can't use it to improve my chars, it's just sitting there. Guess I could upgrade covenant further, but there's no point doing that.

Anima is entirely optional, even more so now than before.

"I can't use it to improve my chars... I could upgrade the covenant further" Is anyone else seeing the mental disconnect here?

[Aesahaettr]

"I can't use it to improve my chars... I could upgrade the covenant further" Is anyone else seeing the mental disconnect here?

There is no disconnect though. There is literally nothing that anima provides to character power. Literally none of it will result in a power increase.

[paxen]

There is no disconnect though. There is literally nothing that anima provides to character power. Literally none of it will result in a power increase.

Which is why it is the SL version of resources.

[Shaetha]

The problem with the Anima grind is it lacks an acceleration that Artifact/Azerite Power had. It does not need to be as steep as the Legion/BfA AP ones were, but it should be there.

That's because it's not comparable to AP. Did you even read the OP?

- - - Updated - - -

"I can't use it to improve my chars... I could upgrade the covenant further" Is anyone else seeing the mental disconnect here?

Improve your character. That means make it more powerful. The only things that cost a significant amount of anima are cosmetics.

[huth]

Improve your character. That means make it more powerful. The only things that cost a significant amount of anima are cosmetics.

Making it look better is also an improvement.

[MrLachyG]

1k anima is not a "grind" unless you wanted to get it all done in a single day.

Keep in mind that you got almost ALL of the anima just by doing normal weekly things.

250 anima from weekly World Boss.
It used to be 350 anima for a full raid or 10 M+ clears, giving you 600 anima total.
Then an extra 350 anima for 2 specific dungeon clears.

This left you at 50 anima to get from other sources, basically your "callings"

Now? You get your full 1000 anima from JUST a full raid clear or full 10 M+.

PvP players had anima EZ mode the entirety of the expansion, easily able to get nearly 10k anima/week JUST from daily PvP

there's also a bug with Maldraxxus world quests/daily quests - any anima you get from that zone is doubled. just had it happen to me today and have noticed it in the past as well

[Eosia]

It's there. We got more anima rewards as part of covenant progression, as well as additional table quests for more anima.

It's slow now because it's 9.0, just like War Resources were. By 9.3 there will be more Anima sources to the point everyone will be able to get everything pretty fast, if they want. People just don't get it - this shitty cosmetic piece for 5k Anima now seems like a big deal, but in 9.3 5k Anima will be like 500-1000 Anima now.

It's not really comparable. Time was the factor that boosted Legion/BfA AP. That's not present in Shadowlands. I am earning Anima at the same rate. Actually slower since they nerfed tables for Arden.

There is no acceleration in collection because there is no increase in cost. You still need the exact same 1000 anima per week you needed in week 1.

Which is moot now because we're already max in covenant renown and have been for weeks.

That's because it's not comparable to AP. Did you even read the OP?

Yes. I did. Go back and read the second sentence.

[Mysterymask]

"I can't use it to improve my chars... I could upgrade the covenant further" Is anyone else seeing the mental disconnect here?

We wiped on Sire because BILLYS EMBER COURT is only level 2...

[VinceVega]

I don't see anything as a grind tbh. As soul ash gathering is finished so fast you can't really say it is a grind. And anima has zero player power behind it and you can completly ignore the gather quest if you are ok being one week behind the people who do. Now after max renown is reached you can ignore it completly.

Anima is... sparse... i think i would actually grind it a bit but what they want us to gather up is just ridicoulus. I always have enough so i can keep my missions rolling so i get the mounts. The rest i ignore. You only get another color palet of gear you get for free anyway. The oh so greath covenenat choice is completly useless for me as nothing is fun in it and is just use the powers. I don't even change anything about the soulbinds as i have different for my to played specs. So they are fixed for weeks now.

TLDR: I don't think anything is a grind in SL in the sense how people in the past complaint about it. As you don't have to do anything. You even get the most power out of the leggo in the first stage. The rest is nice to have but not really needed. So nothing can really be compared to azerite or artifact power.

[baskev]

You are pretty far off. For one, Soul Ash is not the same as AP, yes, but I said it's the closest thing SL has.

i am far off? i have given serveral reasons why they are not the same. You say: they are both currency, so they are the same.

Soul ash is for getting legendary items, once you have them. You are done.
AP was a endless grind.

And how much needed, sources etc all differ to much. So please proof with some logic etc why they are the same. Not just, because they are currency.

And secondly, Anima buys you a whole ton of stuff just now in the first patch (while you're apparently comparing it to everything you could buy for resources across three expansions).

Nope i did not. I did not say 3 expansions. I said that anima has fewer drops/big collection points etc, and things cost way WAY more to buy anything with it.
And i did not compare it to 3 expansions. I was just comparing it in this case to Garrisons...because you put garrisons resources as the same thing as anima.
Yes GR buys you less, but you where done and it was easy to get. You did not have to grind for days/weeks to get simple stuff done.

There's no garrison cache, but there wasn't any garrison cache after wod, was there?

Yes there where (in a matter of sense). Both paragon exlated ( you know those boxxes) dropped a lot. World bosses, WQ dropped a lot. and those where not that hard.
Thats 1 of my big points. Easyier to collect.

You don't get much from the adventuring table, but again, that was a wod-ism after you optimized your crew.

Like you get a lot now? both had stuff like pets, resources ( WoD even had multiple resources you could get) , follower stuff and xp. Hell WoD even had their version of the weekly quest in the mission table.

In Legion I was heavily into the table, and I had to go out and get resources quite a bit, mostly from WQs (with follower with proper eqiupment - which again, wasn't much of in 7.0.whatever). Anima *is* the resource of SL. It's not the same as resources were in wod/legion/bfa, but then again, resources were not at all a constant across those three expansions either.

Yes, but unlike the other expansions. we did not have MANY sub resources to get stuff. If you had garrison resources, or order hall stuff. You did not need a lot of different things to buy stuff ( maybe a rep here or there). Now you have treasurs etc to collect.

And i am not comparing them to eachother you are. You are saying they are the same.
My whole point is they are not.


So in short:
anima is way harder to collect, things are way more expansive, you can not easy get it. And you need more things to use it. Then just a rep and the resource. So its nothing like garrison resources. Those where easy to get, had less to buy with it , faster rewards ( like buildings etc) etc etc.


Soul ash is nothing lip AP. Soul ash is only for 2 items, collected from 1 source. once you are done, your done.
AP was for 3 items ( or 4 if you are a druid), it had MANY sources. Rewards where quick. But it was a endless grind.
So they where not the same at all.

[paxen]

i am far off? i have given serveral reasons why they are not the same. You say: they are both currency, so they are the same.

Soul ash is for getting legendary items, once you have them. You are done.
AP was a endless grind.

And how much needed, sources etc all differ to much. So please proof with some logic etc why they are the same. Not just, because they are currency.



Nope i did not. I did not say 3 expansions. I said that anima has fewer drops/big collection points etc, and things cost way WAY more to buy anything with it.
And i did not compare it to 3 expansions. I was just comparing it in this case to Garrisons...because you put garrisons resources as the same thing as anima.
Yes GR buys you less, but you where done and it was easy to get. You did not have to grind for days/weeks to get simple stuff done.



Yes there where (in a matter of sense). Both paragon exlated ( you know those boxxes) dropped a lot. World bosses, WQ dropped a lot. and those where not that hard.
Thats 1 of my big points. Easyier to collect.


Like you get a lot now? both had stuff like pets, resources ( WoD even had multiple resources you could get) , follower stuff and xp. Hell WoD even had their version of the weekly quest in the mission table.



Yes, but unlike the other expansions. we did not have MANY sub resources to get stuff. If you had garrison resources, or order hall stuff. You did not need a lot of different things to buy stuff ( maybe a rep here or there). Now you have treasurs etc to collect.

And i am not comparing them to eachother you are. You are saying they are the same.
My whole point is they are not.


So in short:
anima is way harder to collect, things are way more expansive, you can not easy get it. And you need more things to use it. Then just a rep and the resource. So its nothing like garrison resources. Those where easy to get, had less to buy with it , faster rewards ( like buildings etc) etc etc.


Soul ash is nothing lip AP. Soul ash is only for 2 items, collected from 1 source. once you are done, your done.
AP was for 3 items ( or 4 if you are a druid), it had MANY sources. Rewards where quick. But it was a endless grind.
So they where not the same at all.

So what you're saying is

Both AP and resources are dead, and there is no AP grind

[intenz]

You forgot a detail: You do not need anima for anything, unless you want to get its rewards. No reward comes without work/grind/rng... ever, on any game.
So this is actually great.

The only grind in Shadowlands is Ash. It is tedious because the only way to obtain it is by clearing trash for a good couple of hours or more every week. And Torghast is always teh same thing, it does not "change" as they claimed from the start... lol, couple of different depuffs, mobs and map layouts.

Are we still pretending that torghast is hard? After all the nerfs? It takes me 15 mins per wing on my rogue. On a freshly levelled warlock I could do both layer 8 wings in under an hour. Torghast is severely undertuned and it's a big problem aside from the lack of rewards.

[baskev]

So what you're saying is

Both AP and resources are dead, and there is no AP grind

Nope, not what i am saying. where did you get that from?

AP= artifact power. thats for your artifact...a legion weapon that no longer works.
Garrison resources is for the garrisons. A thing of 3! expansions ago. A thing that no longer serves any purpose.

But yeah, they are no longer relavant. So there is no grind for it.


As for it ( the old grind of both vs the new grind for both) i have said it before. soul ash is not a endless grind. and has a clear source to get it.
And anima is a very low reward, very high cost resource. And all the things you can get with it are optinal. No need to get it to win stuff.

But this is the 3th time you switched the conversation to something else. No clue what you are on about.

[paxen]

But this is the 3th time you switched the conversation to something else. No clue what you are on about.

That's probably because I have no clue what *you* are talking about. This post is about how people too often talk about artifact power/azerite power/anima as if they're the same type of thing, which they aren't - but artifact power and azerite power very much *were* the same type of thing.

Here's a tip: things can be similar and categorized together without being completely identical. Artifact power/azerite are two very similar concepts, even though they're not identical. Soul ash is the *closest thing* Legion has, even though it has major differences. So if people want to talk about the "forced grind" of a currency if you want to max out player power, they should talk about artifact power, azerite and soul ash, and not artifact power, azerite and anima.

That's it.

[baskev]

That's probably because I have no clue what *you* are talking about. This post is about how people too often talk about artifact power/azerite power/anima as if they're the same type of thing, which they aren't - but artifact power and azerite power very much *were* the same type of thing.

I was talking about ( the first response) how you thought anima and soul ash are the excat same thing as ( or even same thing) artifact power and garrison resources.
A thing you previous denied , but now agree to?

And you never talked about azerite. That is just 1 of your new jumps.

Here's a tip: things can be similar and categorized together without being completely identical. Artifact power/azerite are two very similar concepts, even though they're not identical. Soul ash is the *closest thing* Legion has, even though it has major differences. So if people want to talk about the "forced grind" of a currency if you want to max out player power, they should talk about artifact power, azerite and soul ash, and not artifact power, azerite and anima.

That's it.

here is my tip: do not change the subject every response. You just added azerite to the mix.

Yes the can be categorized in the same group ( resources). But that was not what you where doing. You where saying they are the excat same kind of things. And are very identical. My whole point is that they all might be resources. But they are not the same by far.

Again, you added azerite to the mix. Something you did not do before. you only talked about ( soul ash, anima, artifact power and garrison resources).

And Soul ash was not in legion, and it was no where near the same. 1 is resource to buy stuff. The other is a resource to upgrade stuff. Thats like comparing school to getting a paycheck.

And the forced grind, again people have stated ( including me) that is not forced. Artifact power was forced. You needed it to became better in pvp/raiding. Anima is not needed. And soul ash is not really a grind.

And you know change your tune again...talking about yet other stuff.
And funny you only respond to 1 sentence out of my response and ignore the rest. even saying the same things that i said before.

[rrayy]

The only grind in Shadowlands is Ash. It is tedious because the only way to obtain it is by clearing trash for a good couple of hours or more every week. And Torghast is always teh same thing, it does not "change" as they claimed from the start... lol, couple of different depuffs, mobs and map layouts.

You say it does not change, then list everything that changes. Also the boss changes. You completely invalidated your own claim.

- - - Updated - - -

There is no disconnect though. There is literally nothing that anima provides to character power. Literally none of it will result in a power increase.

Funny, I could have sworn I bought covenant gear with anima that provided to character power...

[paxen]

stuff

Okay, again, you think I only mentioned Legion AP and WoD garrison resources in the OP, while I explicitly listed garrison/order hall/war resources, as well as Legion/BfA artifact power (go check). BfA did use artifact power: it's what powered up the Heart, and was often used interchangeably with azerite.

But we in fact mostly agree: The SL systems are notably different from the old systems, which is important because a significant part of the griping about SL is the "forced anima grind" which we, again, agree isn't at all forced.

This will be my final post about this sidethread.