20 man mythic recruitment killing my guild...what about you?

[kaminaris]

Brother, I manage people for a living. It's literally my fucking job. The reason I haven't mentioned it is because it's not fucking relevant to the discussion.

For what it's worth, I recruited for a 10M Heroic guild back in SoO that needed to transition to 20M in WoD. We raided four times a week between the hours of 2:30 AM and 6:30 AM. Do you know how many people raid those hours? I'll fill you in: Literally fucking nobody (except Australians who had shit ping since we were on US servers). But we still managed to get a raid group going and ended Tier 17 in the US Top 100. Recruiting sucks but it's part of the package. I have no idea why you keep trying to use an appeal to authority fallacy to support your position.

Thats cool but has zero impact on discussion.

Further, there's no argument that 10M Heroic was more popular; that's not the argument. The argument is about what's best for the game -- smaller raid sizes simply do not fulfill the intended desire Blizzard has for endgame progression nor do they allow for sufficient class representation. (Can you imagine asking for something that reduces class representation in a game that has daily multi-page conversation topics about adding more class/specs to it?)

And this is where you are wrong as well. Smaller teams size is better for game for about 100 reasons with biggest on of them is social aspect. MMOs are not suppose to be competitive games where balance and shit is primary concern as it will never be fair unless you remove all loot and make every class just a template. It is suppose to be fun experience with friends. This is something that 10Man does a lot better.

So it is better for game.

Bottom line, if you want the smaller "tight-knit group" experience that 10M Heroic provided then you have two entire raid difficulties and M+ to fill that niche. If that still doesn't work for you, the option shouldn't be to whine loudly on forums until the powers-that-be hear you. It should be the same fucking option you had a decade ago when they announced the change to a fixed larger raid size: Find another game to play. FFXIV's 8-player raids are pretty good from what I hear.

M+ doesn't fill that niche as its simply different game mode. Its like saying you could substitute bread in your diet with grass. And here is your fallacy. There is not just 2 options. 3rd one exists as well, try to change it back how it was suppose to be, how originally blizzard planned it, when they still had vision.

[exochaft]

Twenty people is just alright for the mythic raid. These fights are supposed to be hard. It's about six months to deal with the whole tier. It has to be hard, because people with the purpose of mythic raiding will have nothing to do in the game. Fights are always different than heroic, more realistic, it's the whole point of it. I wouldn't scale it to 15 or 10 people, because then it would be much easier, when it's meant to be hard. I know it’s difficult to manage the guild like this, but that’s the whole point of mythic raiding is to suffer and strengthen up!

Back when there was heroic 10man and heroic 25man raiding, there was always internal player debate about what which mode was harder... and people picked their camps. Reality was both were hard, but for different reasons.

For example, if there was a fight with a smaller room that required people to spread out for a mechanic, the fight could be harder for a 25man team since there was less room per raider compared to 10man. If a fight required a lot of healer CD's and/or immunities, 10man was usually harder because even class stacking or having access to all buffs/debuffs (or adding an extra healer/tank in some cases) may not be viable as it would with a 25man team to work with. Tuning-wise, it varied between the difficulties from a pure DPS/HPS perspective, where either 10man or 25man was harder... although typically if you lost one person in 10man, it was way more detrimental than losing one person out of 25 people. From the coordination side of things, getting 25 people to be on the same page was usually harder than getting 10 people in sync, assuming the content demanded any level of group-wide synchronization. Outside of the raid itself, keeping a 25man roster was harder than keeping a 10man roster.

Now I understand Blizz not wanting mythic to be flex raiding, as many raid mechanics could (and should) change based upon how many people there are in the group; ironically enough, 10man raiding was a precursor to how having less bodies in flex raids for the same number of mechanics that require bodies (such as soaking) was objectively harder to accomplish than a larger group. However, what size the raid is does not mean the encounter difficulty would necessarily get easier. As I mentioned earlier, changing the size of a raid introduces other difficulties while alleviating others. Blizz could change their minds and make mythic raiding 15man, 10man, 25man, or whatever they want while maintaining the standard difficulty people expect.

Going back to the OP and recruitment issues, that's a direct result mythic raids requiring 20 people (realistically 30 to have a bench), and reducing mythic raid size to 15 or 10 would alleviate that issue to some degree. When you compete against end-game content like M+, which currently has an easier/more reliable gearing system with less restrictions on time, being able to freely cross-realm and pick friends/pugs, and only requiring 5 people... yeah, the interest in raiding plummets. PvP gearing has a even more deterministic gearing system that many people like. What the game is finding out now is that more people that used to raid at the highest difficulty were likely driven by gear more than Blizz likely realizes, at least in the best case scenario, and they've shifted to other forms of content. Worst case scenario, the WoW population is moving on from the raid model in terms of short-term commitment activities such as M+ and PvP, and getting fresh blood with the drive and skill to mythic raid gets harder.

If there's a first step to making mythic raiding participation/completion rates go up, it would be making mythic raiding more accessible. RaidID lockouts and cross-realm restrictions absolutely choke off potential players and stifle raids from even starting a raid in a world where you need exactly 20 people to do the content. I've had times where I've wanted to help out less progressed guilds of my friends when they're stuck at 18-19 people showing up for a raid, but I can never go on my main because of RaidID lockouts and usually cross-realm restrictions... and this sort of scenario is extremely common on non-full/high realms. Going loot lockout and removing realm restrictions for mythic raiding on day 1 would go a long way towards getting people to mythic raid.

Secondly, they need to make the gearing system a bit more competitive to M+ and PvP. Raiding used to be the ultimate way to get gear, the Blizz reasoning being that raiding took way more people and coordination to complete the content. Mythic raiding still takes more people and coordination to complete the content, yet the rewards are terrible compared to other competing end-game content.

I'm going to say right now that no matter what Blizz does, people won't be happy, because they've built up that PvP, M+, and raiding are supposed to be all viable ways to reasonably gear up the same if that's your main content. In people's mind, everyone wants to think their content is the hardest and most deserving of the rewards they get, that their end-game content is more special than the others; reality is that each is difficult in their own way, but my stance is mythic raiding is the most restrictive and difficult despite having an inferior reward structure and not being any more special than the others.

So possible solutions (certainly not the only ones) are buff the crap out of the rewards you get from mythic raiding to match the difficulty and effort so the best loot comes from mythic raiding only, reduce the difficulty/restrictions of mythic raiding to match the rewards of other content, reduce the size of mythic raids to 15/10man or have two mythic raid sizes (balance nightmare be damned)... and I can already tell there will be people who would vehemently oppose things on this list. While I hate saying it this way, a lot of the issues regarding mythic raiding stem from players and Blizz themselves gate-keeping mythic raiding and keeping it on a pedestal, each group having different reasons for their actions but ultimately having the same end result: mythic raiding is generally not worth the time and effort for most people who have the skill to actually complete the content.

In case people were wondering, as if it matters really: I used to raid 25m heroic and mythic top 30-50 US since WotLK and going a more casual route in Legion while still completing the raid tiers on mythic during their respective patch cycles (albeit taking much longer). What caused me to go more casual is that recruitment was becoming hell in WoD due to server restrictions and less people being interested in raiding, the raids were becoming more bugged to annoying levels that most players don't see beyond world first and people who complete the raid w/i a month of release, and the sheer amount of time commitment it took to raid at that level. So yeah, I've been around the block and experienced the hardest raiding content from different perspectives, but I've never wanted to exclude people from the content... I've wanted more people to experience it. However, the design of end-game mythic raiding is constantly being pushed in a direction that excludes people who could experience it instead of inviting them in. Until that changes, the hardest part about mythic raiding will still be maintaining a roster and finding people actually interested in mythic raiding.

[kaminaris]

Just gonna use your own quote against you to prove how hypocritical you are acting.




Sorry Kam, you don't know what "every" raider preferred.

I for one preferred 25 man raids, 10 mans were just so much more convenient.

Im just going to explain you human written language:

Whole post is

Thats cool when people try to dismiss argument but I had exact same situation, I have yet to find any real raider that actually preferred 25 over 10

Now if you actually bother to read context I was reffering to this post:

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...7#post53125237

Which is:

I've yet to find a real player (not some forum dude) who disliked 10-man raiding.

So even if you say you like it, for me you are not a real raider, never raided with you, you are just a "forum dude".

And where did I say "every"? My point still stands, I have yet to find any real raider that actually preferred 25 over 10

I know reading with comprehension is not easy but at least try to read whole context before replying.

[Zyky]

Mythic is just fine as it is, some guilds are just not made to go far in mythic raiding as there is always a point where the players are just not skilled enough to clear the content while its current. Mythic raiding is too difficult for average players as its not desinged to be done by them, flex mythic would just not work as some fights would be easier and some would be harder so you would still need a certain amount of players so you could do the content as easy as possible.

Mythic really isn't fine, we've been seeing an ever decreasing population for mythic raiding since Legion and that's primarily because the reward structure is garbage. When the vast majority of your BiS gear is from doing M+, why waste your time doing raids? Blizzard keeps going down the wrong direction time and time again, last expansion was forced personal loot, this expansion was significantly reduced drops(and it's still less even after they buffed it). There's a reason people, even high end, enjoy olden days of raiding, not really in Vanilla and a small extent in BC, but it's because the raids weren't overly complicated and the rewards actually felt rewarding. Some of the hardest encounters ever came out in Wrath and they weren't hard because Blizzard just increased the damage the boss does just because their test team was able to kill the boss. Now the only thing "hard" about most encounters is the overlapping mechanics because they throw an obnoxious amount of them together to elude at difficulty. My case rests with the reality that they do this illusion of difficulty with overlapping mechanics and then punish you when you're DPS is too high and push phases faster, this has happened SEVERAL times since Legion and it's already a thing with multiple mythic encounters in the current tier.

[Relapses]

Thats cool but has zero impact on discussion.

You quoted me, three times, telling me that I didn't know what I was talking about because I didn't have "personal experience." I then tell you that I have personal experience and you immediately dismiss it. Cute.

And this is where you are wrong as well. Smaller teams size is better for game for about 100 reasons with biggest on of them is social aspect. MMOs are not suppose to be competitive games where balance and shit is primary concern as it will never be fair unless you remove all loot and make every class just a template. It is suppose to be fun experience with friends. This is something that 10Man does a lot better.

So it is better for game.

"I liked it, therefore it's better." This is not an argument. There's no way you can speak on behalf of all players. I raided in a 10M Heroic guild in ICC. I raided in a 10M Heroic guild in T11, T12 and T13. I wouldn't have got CE when I did if I didn't raid 10M in ToT and SoO. I had a blast in every one of the 10M guilds that I was in. It represents some of my best memories in the game. Some of my best friends that I still have to this day I made while I was in a 10M guild. But even with that said, I understand why Blizzard decided to change the format. And instead of being mad that the game changed, I did what most rational human beings do: I dealt with it and moved the fuck on with my life.

M+ doesn't fill that niche as its simply different game mode. Its like saying you could substitute bread in your diet with grass. And here is your fallacy. There is not just 2 options. 3rd one exists as well, try to change it back how it was suppose to be, how originally blizzard planned it, when they still had vision.

And this is just you reinforcing what I said earlier: You clearly aren't interested in discussing this topic with any objectivity. You want 10M Heroic and nothing else.

[kaminaris]

"I liked it, therefore it's better." This is not an argument. There's no way you can speak on behalf of all players. I raided in a 10M Heroic guild in ICC. I raided in a 10M Heroic guild in T11, T12 and T13. I wouldn't have got CE when I did if I didn't raid 10M in ToT and SoO. I had a blast in every one of the 10M guilds that I was in. It represents some of my best memories in the game. Some of my best friends that I still have to this day I made while I was in a 10M guild. But even with that said, I understand why Blizzard decided to change the format. And instead of being mad that the game changed, I did what most rational human beings do: I dealt with it and moved the fuck on with my life.

"I didn't like it, therefore it's worse." Exact same thing. You don't understand a thing, probably nobody knows the truth. Blizzard literally contradicted themselves by doing a shift to 20 man and the only thing we know why is because its easier. Go click that link and read the blue post.

And this is just you reinforcing what I said earlier: You clearly aren't interested in discussing this topic with any objectivity. You want 10M Heroic and nothing else.

Ah please, I dont need 10M. Read this guy post, he explains it well:

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post53125333

- - - Updated - - -

Maybe you arent a native English speaker so.... When you say "I have yet to find any" You are suggesting that you've asked quite a few people and ZERO have given you a particular response.

I am not native English speaker but my reading comperehension is at least better than yours.

I have yet to find any real raider that actually preferred 25 over 10

I - Me, personally
have yet to find - in unspecified period of time that began somewhere in the past and continues till this very moment "HAVE NOT FOUND"
any real raider - nobody personally that raided (with me in this context as it was reply which excluded "forum dudes")
that actually - that truthfully expressed themselves and made a statement
preferred 25 over 10 - prefered one raid size over the other.

[Zatch4Ever]

I honestly would not mind if at some point mythic became a 15 man standard.

2/4/9 or 2/3/10 sounds like it can be balanced quite well, while allowing more guilds to maintain a healthy roster of people.

And those guilds with big rosters could go for team A and team B solutions instead of benching a whole lot of people.

[kaminaris]

Your English comprehension is the problem here NOT mine.

Dude, all that yelling and still zero arguments. You tried to tell me I contradicted myself and when I explained the sentence you are suddenly moving goalpost and your entire reply was "NO YOU!".

Were 10 mans more popular - yes, we know that. Read the link.

The fact I said I know nobody that preferred 25 man isn't a direct confirmation that MAJORITY is like that. You made that shit up. - This is another issue with your reading comprehension, you would have hard time as attorney.

What wasn't explicitly written doesn't exist.

[kaminaris]

No I didn't say "NO YOU!" hahahahahaha.

The two things I just said, that you, and me basically said, mean the same thing. Thats just a fact. Im sorry, its just a fact, its English language dude haha. When you make a comment like that, you're insinuating that. Sorry if you don't like it, its just the way language works.

You're literally just insulting me nothing more haha.



Alright well we all know that is not true ������������������������������

This is exactly true. I do not make hidden meanings. Period. All my sentences are exact and explicit.

This is clearly your issue with reading with comprehension:

I could even say "I haven't met anyone who believe that, therefore I believe most people don't believe that"

there is no "therefore", that is just your assumption.

[kaminaris]

No no, I'm not saying that you are making 'hidden meanings' I'm saying that in language, when you make a statement that is generic like "I haven't met any person who likes lord of the rings"

You are basically saying, well I've not met anyone who likes it so Im pretty sure most people don't like it..

The red part is YOUR ASSUMPTION. Which is completely wrong as I never said that.

So to summarize:

You imagined yourself something I DID NOT SAY then began arguing against it.

[Osmeric]

Can you guys like get a room or something? This back and forth I-said-you-said is not, I think, very interesting to anyone else.

[msdos]

My retail guild always falls apart before we can recruit for Mythic.

Your guild really has to have an "everyone" mentality, otherwise it's just going to split apart. Example: you can't have all the best players together doing M+ exclusively together.
It's like basketball kinda, you don't want your entire bench to be scrubs and you want a 6th man who is starter material, but who you purposely have on the bench rotation.

So in other words, you want to mix your best players all together with all of your other guild members. You can't alienate people and then be like "zomg bro, where's all your M+ loot??!?!!?" because then what is the point of your guild?

[Marrilaife]

Furthermore, the WoW population itself and their behaviors/attitudes combined with in-game design are not conducive to mythic raiding, or at the very least is trending away from the activity. Without delving into every facet in detail, the overarching issue is that mythic raiding is just not worth it if you're concerned about gear. Right now, the ease of gearing ranks (easiest to hardest): PvP > M+ >> raiding. Only reason to raid mythic is just to kill the bosses, and the design and philosophy behind the difficulty and reward structure even make just killing bosses not enticing. If we circle back to recruiting, it's not uncommon to get the response "Why would I mythic raid? I can PvP or M+ and get all the gear much faster and with less effort." Even if we just talk PvE, clearing ten M+ dungeons at +14 or higher is immensely easier and potentially less time-consuming than actually mythic raiding in a given week.

Tbh what you said is all true, raiding went from being "be all end all" of wow endgame to being an absolute worst in effort to reward ratio.

Situation with vault is also creating drama because people don't wanna get benched if that would give them 1 fewer item from the vault, and this is especially problematic when progressing and not having all bosses on farm.

Being forced to pvp to get enough gear to raid is especially not funny (I remember my guild's tanks - monk and DH - both said pvp gives them BIS gear due to versa on it).

This raid is also harder than previous tiers, a friend of mine finally killed mythic Denathrius a while ago which was still months after the raid opened and he got around 500 world rank... I remember past raids would have 800-1000 guilds killing last boss in a similar time frame. This could also reflect how many guilds gave up on mythic raiding because it's unrewarding and worse than let's say spamming RBGs as a guild.

Still, I think this raid is harder overall, due to scarce loot and extra coordination mechanics, and it's probably a deliberate attempt from Blizzard to artificially extend content because they're not ready with 9.1 even though we're 5 months into expansion so it's high time to get some new patch.

Generally the "entry" raid was usually easier than the subsequent one, but this time we're already starting with KJ vibes from the get go. For example, several mythic guilds killed 2 bosses on mythic before they killed hc Denathrius on the opening of the raid, meaning they did not clear hc week 1.

Usually after xrealm mythic opened all the bosses would be nerfed to a joke state, and while Nathria had some targeted nerfs, we're still at sub 700 guilds clearing it.

Raids are also not designed to accommodate "warm bodies" so if you're semi-casual with some "filler" people they'll just keep wiping you on blood council or some other irritating boss.

Someone said about recruitment for classic - it's much easier because dps requirements aren't very tight and awareness requirements are minuscule. The old raids weren't like "everyone watch weak auras and boss mods like a hawk, 1 second of inattention from 1 person and whole raid wipes!"

[Aurosh]

Actually for a group of 15, recruiting would be worse. You would sacrifice some dps. You still wanna have raid buffs and utility. E.g. currently you wanna have every raid buff twice in case someone doesnt appear/quit. In a 15m, this would ne harder.

Back then, i raided 10m once. Raid was really nice, but when main tank and warlock quitted, we disbandoned.

Smaller or bigger raids dont solve any recruiting. 15m guilds would have the same problem after the start. People quit, you need to replace them...

[Nalam the Venom]

Actually its much easier to raid with a full raid group, the less ppl you have in the group makes the raid more difficult, there can only be one raid size for max difficulty as its hard enough to balance a raid as it is, 20 spots allows for most classes to get a raid spot so any less would limit the choices and make a certain class the only option to bring buffs.



Raiding is not about gear its about clearing the content, if your only goal is to aquire gear then the whole game is going to dissapoint you as gear is way too easy to aquire, gear is just a means to make the more challenging content just a little easier.

The raid and the bosses is the thing that’s ”A means to an end” so you pretty much have it backwards.

Played the game since 2006 and that has always been my mentality

[VinceVega]

I don't know what the solution could be, but recruiting 20+ people for core and bench is starting to look like an impossible task at this very moment. I would even speculate it's easier to recruit 40 people in classic than it is to recruit 20 people for mythic in retail at the moment, and that's quite ridiculous.

My solution proposal would be obvious, reduce the number of people required for mythic content. 15? 10? again, this is the only thing I can really think of, as making mythic content scale-like LFR, normal, and heroic does would just be a balancing nightmare.

We are on a "full" pop server, US Thrall with plenty of people. The problem is related to not enough talent being out there to fill the roles. Is the content too difficult for the average player? is Raider.IO part of the problem? again, I don't know what the solution could possibly be, but there's definitely something going on with recruitment that is making it really hard to make a consistent roster.

No Problem whatsoever. If we loose a player to whatever we get someone new in about two days.

We are also more than 20 people with a rotation so we can compensate a leaving player

[kamuimac]

I don't know what the solution could be, but recruiting 20+ people for core and bench is starting to look like an impossible task at this very moment. I would even speculate it's easier to recruit 40 people in classic than it is to recruit 20 people for mythic in retail at the moment, and that's quite ridiculous.

My solution proposal would be obvious, reduce the number of people required for mythic content. 15? 10? again, this is the only thing I can really think of, as making mythic content scale-like LFR, normal, and heroic does would just be a balancing nightmare.

We are on a "full" pop server, US Thrall with plenty of people. The problem is related to not enough talent being out there to fill the roles. Is the content too difficult for the average player? is Raider.IO part of the problem? again, I don't know what the solution could possibly be, but there's definitely something going on with recruitment that is making it really hard to make a consistent roster.

what really killed your guild is that SL is extremly bad expansion

my super casual guild died this reset even though we were very close to getting AoTC - why it died - because people realised that they cant be bothered with paying sub for such bad game just to raid casualy 1 night a week because there is nothing else to do in game unless someone spamms m+ for GV . other guilds i see ? extremly dead outside of raid hours.

if game was healthy and good you would have no problem to have full roster.

SL is just pure garbage expansion . thats what is killing guilds atm .

you know hat oudl help ? blizzard provinding people with actual content providing them with power progression of their char. becuase what i see now is my main and alts sitting on 220 and only thing they have to do is to spam +14 for GV - and its a nightmare getting into group .

game is really really bad atm .

[froschhure]

10man>>>>>>>>20man

thiiiiiiiis

[Yuli]

I think looking at the progress of this thread will answer your question: I think SL is just not very popular and that people are leaving left and right, meaning your attempts to recruit will not be very successful.

That thread is a circlejerk where every positive word is thwarted by negativity though that also heavily derails from the subject matter. Also, and this is very important:

MMO-Champion does not reflect the playerbase of WoW at all.

[ClassicPeon]

There is a pretty easy fix to this imo.

I'm in a guild thats starting to progress mythic and we are having serious roster issues.

We are currently 2/10 with hungering on 5%. We would have had him a few weeks ago if not for roster issues.

Anyway here is my suggestion. Start out with 20 man mythic. Then after a while make it cross server + flex.

I really dont see any downsides with this. Not only is it going to help guilds who are almsot finnished with the tier now, perhaps 9/10 and starting to loose a few members, its going to help guilds like mine who spend the first month or so clearing heroic.

Edit:

Oh and please drop the dumb ID lockout system for mythic aswell.