20 man mythic recruitment killing my guild...what about you?

[Strawberry]

Why can't Blizzard just tune mythic for either 10 and 20 raiders?
Nothing in between.
And for world first, the world can simply keep these separate.

10man raiding is more fun in my opinion and would let more guilds enjoy mythic content.

[erifwodahs]

Anyway here is my suggestion. Start out with 20 man mythic. Then after a while make it cross server + flex.

They don't nail the HC flex balance or even 20 man fixed difficulty, so I can't see them tuning mythic to "appropriate" difficulty and not be punishing/over rewarding with certain sizes. It would take a lot of extra work for a small fraction of playerbase. Plus imagine that doing a fight with 12 players is easier than doing it with 20, now you have to bench 8+ players for progress or handicap yourself on purpose - both options sucks.

[Clozer]

Why can't Blizzard just tune mythic for either 10 and 20 raiders?
Nothing in between.
And for world first, the world can simply keep these separate.

10man raiding is more fun in my opinion and would let more guilds enjoy mythic content.

Why would you go through the logistic nightmare of managing a 20m guild if you can do a 10m guild instead? They have to make 10m significantly harder or way less rewarding. Anyway, 2 sets of mythic difficulty are very hard to balance.

[Kumorii]

Switching to 10 man doesn't fix the problem. It just shift the numbers. While guilds will still have problem recruiting because they are a few short. Short term it also destroy some guilds because now they have to sit people they didn't have to before etc etc.

For every size there will be guilds having issues filling the spots. I see no reason since our will help some and hurt some. I think 20 man is a good size for the amount of classes we have. Even if that means we have issues filling it up, but we are soon there.

Honestly for us it has been real life events causing more issues with recruiting and reliability than the size of the raid.

[ClassicPeon]

They don't nail the HC flex balance or even 20 man fixed difficulty, so I can't see them tuning mythic to "appropriate" difficulty and not be punishing/over rewarding with certain sizes. It would take a lot of extra work for a small fraction of playerbase. Plus imagine that doing a fight with 12 players is easier than doing it with 20, now you have to bench 8+ players for progress or handicap yourself on purpose - both options sucks.

I like how people are just pulling statistics straight form their behind with absolutely nothing to build it on.

Anyway they dont need to nail this balance as hard as they do the 20 man innitial balance because the race is already over at this point. The epeen people got their epeen points, now the rest of us just want to experience some harder raiding at our own pace without having to rely on pugs every week.

As someone previously posted, it could simply be a 15-20 man flex if that makes it easier.

Also the flex tuning is fine right now. Especially from 10-20 man. It gets a bit wonky with 30 ppl in the raid when it comes to space but they really dont need to tune mythic for that anyway

[erifwodahs]

10man raiding is more fun in my opinion and would let more guilds enjoy mythic content.

this could be it, but then they need to do something about tanking. Tanks are not popular now, trust me, I can take a absolutely no score person with me into a +15 as long as he is above 200ilvl and it doesn't take long to get an invite, even if it otherwise would be instant. People would ask me if my friend is good and that is it.
If you can get 10 man mythic raiding work and make raid tanking not that boring and m+ tank not to feel like using a cactus as a butt plug (it's better now tbh, but at the start... oof) you would solve M+ problem too, where you get 100 dps and 20 healers signing up for a key.

[Amaterasu65]

10man>>>>>>>>20man

More personal responsibility, more emphasis on actual gameplay and less on garbage logistics. I don't care if people think more people feels more epic. Recruiting is terrible.


I'm sure you'll get the contrarians that come in and be like pffft just recruit harder or be better so people wanna join your guild loser because that's all people in this forum do. rofl

I agree, 10mans need to make a comeback.

[Gorsameth]

I love how people try to blame this on Shadowlands, completely ignoring that this happens every single expansion without fail.

There are more guilds looking to grow to 20 to do Mythic then there are raiders interested in doing Mythic.
The total amount of players in the game don't matter, how many mythic vs non-mythic raiders the expansion has doesn't matter.
There will always be more guilds looking to grow then players to sustain them unless your God and can snap a finger to magically make everyone find eachother and perfectly divide themselves.

if you put 10 guilds of 15 people on a server all looking to do Mythic they won't magically balance themselves into 7 guilds of 21/22 people. No guild wants to be the one that gives up because the math doesn't add up, so they all keep trying and failing and then 6 of them die, half the players quit the other half bothers to find a new guild that hopefully won't suffer from the exact same and in the end your lucky if you end up with 4 Mythic capable guilds.
And this process repeats until the end of time as new/returning players come in and old players leave.

Would switching to 10man raiding help? yes and no.
No, because now you have a bunch of 8 man guilds looking to grow to 10 and be able to raid.
Yes, because now you lose that awkward moment where you look to transition from <20 flex raiding to 20m Mythic. Guilds die a lot quicker when they can't raid at all, compared to being stuck farming Heroic with 15/18 and you get some form of equilibrium sooner.

[ClassicPeon]

I love how people try to blame this on Shadowlands, completely ignoring that this happens every single expansion without fail.

There are more guilds looking to grow to 20 to do Mythic then there are raiders interested in doing Mythic.
The total amount of players in the game don't matter, how many mythic vs non-mythic raiders the expansion has doesn't matter.
There will always be more guilds looking to grow then players to sustain them unless your God and can snap a finger to magically make everyone find eachother and perfectly divide themselves.

if you put 10 guilds of 15 people on a server all looking to do Mythic they won't magically balance themselves into 7 guilds of 21/22 people. No guild wants to be the one that gives up because the math doesn't add up, so they all keep trying and failing and then 6 of them die, half the players quit the other half bothers to find a new guild that hopefully won't suffer from the exact same and in the end your lucky if you end up with 4 Mythic capable guilds.
And this process repeats until the end of time as new/returning players come in and old players leave.

Would switching to 10man raiding help? yes and no.
No, because now you have a bunch of 8 man guilds looking to grow to 10 and be able to raid.
Yes, because now you lose that awkward moment where you look to transition from <20 flex raiding to 20m Mythic. Guilds die a lot quicker when they can't raid at all, compared to being stuck farming Heroic with 15/18 and you get some form of equilibrium sooner.

I agree with you some of the way.

There is probably not a lot of 8 man guilds looking to do mythic raiding though.

That being said warcraft logs lists 18435 kills on sire HC and only 13340 kills on the objectively easier shriekwing mythic. That leaves a potential of AT LEAST 5000 guilds more doing mythic progression.

You can contrast this between normal and hc where more guilds has killed shriekwing hc then sire normal(about 2700 more)

Edit:

And thats 5000 guilds plus all the guilds who are currently struggeling with roster issues but have done some mythic progression already.

I mean this is just a no brainer. Make it flex somewhat after a while

[Nite92]

10man>>>>>>>>20man

More personal responsibility, more emphasis on actual gameplay and less on garbage logistics. I don't care if people think more people feels more epic. Recruiting is terrible.


I'm sure you'll get the contrarians that come in and be like pffft just recruit harder or be better so people wanna join your guild loser because that's all people in this forum do. rofl

You can hardly make 10 man content hard. Its difficulty swings much harder depending on the setup than if it were 20man.

[tomten]

My solution would be to introduce slightly flexible format for mythic raids. Something like 17-23. It's flexible enough to be able to recruit enough people, not having them benched in Wednesday and not having raid cancelled because of few people not showing up and it's hard enough to break encounters.

Wouldn't work because then suddenly its, we only had 15 people, it should be 13-16 instead and down the rabbit hole you go.

[ClassicPeon]

You can hardly make 10 man content hard. Its difficulty swings much harder depending on the setup than if it were 20man.

"You can hardly make 20 man hard. Its difficulty swings much harder depending on the setup than if it where 40man."

[Dimmak]

This why they needed to keep mythic with a small flex. Ie 18 to 22 people on mythic. There is nothing more infuriating then not being able to go because you have 19 or worse you get sat as number 21.

[erifwodahs]

I like how people are just pulling statistics straight form their behind with absolutely nothing to build it on.

WoWProgress - try using that. Council of blood on mythic was cleared by 6 times less guilds than HC sire has. Anything above Hungering has at least 5 more kills on HC compared to mythic. So yeah, it's not that much less people are raiding mythic - 12k guilds actually stepped into mythic - 40% of guilds who did HC, it's just that MUCH less people are clearing it, so anything above hungering destroyer would have to have scaling difficulty tuning for bosses which will be cleared by so few people. Sire Denathrius has 30 times more guild kills on HC than it does for mythic, but they would have to make scaling tuning for Mythic anyway? It's good thing that they actually tune it for fixed group size.

[Gorsameth]

This why they needed to keep mythic with a small flex. Ie 18 to 22 people on mythic. There is nothing more infuriating then not being able to go because you have 19 or worse you get sat as number 21.

Then you have the exact same with same thing with 16-17 people in a build.
It doesn't solve anything, it just moves the numbers around somewhat.

- - - Updated - - -

I agree with you some of the way.

There is probably not a lot of 8 man guilds looking to do mythic raiding though.

That being said warcraft logs lists 18435 kills on sire HC and only 13340 kills on the objectively easier shriekwing mythic. That leaves a potential of AT LEAST 5000 guilds more doing mythic progression.

You can contrast this between normal and hc where more guilds has killed shriekwing hc then sire normal(about 2700 more)

Edit:

And thats 5000 guilds plus all the guilds who are currently struggeling with roster issues but have done some mythic progression already.

I mean this is just a no brainer. Make it flex somewhat after a while

Flex + difficulty content with actual tuning simply doesn't work.

[Kralljin]

"You can hardly make 20 man hard. Its difficulty swings much harder depending on the setup than if it where 40man."

Comparing apples to oranges.

Major issue with 40man raids as far as difficulty is concerned is that having 40 competent people is extremely difficult to maintain.

10man however, is extremely difficult to design in that aspect because you can't reasonably design every encounter around a given setup, you can't design an encounter around Warlock Portal because that would make Warlocks mandatory, can't expect every raid to have a Priest, so any MC shenanigans are off the table, can't have any mages spellstealing shit, etc..
And that just scratches the surface, certain healers like Resto Shaman simply struggled in a 10man setting because they don't work very well with fewer people around.

Both have issues, but they're not the same.
40man raids can exist in theory but simply struggle because having to maintain a roster of 40+ people that are competent to overcome challenging encounters is a HR nightmare.
10man raids simply have massive design issues from the getgo because Blizzard wants to humor the idea that every class should be unique and have unique tools.

Challenging 10man raids can exist just fine in a game where Class toolkits are a lot more homogenized.

[Easyclassictopkeklel]

It's kinda pointless to discuss topics like this. Even after all these years people still are too ignorant and ignore all the numerous reasons why 10 ppl raids are a bad idea and why 20 ppl raids are clearly delivering a better raiding experience for everyone.
The problem isn't maintaining a raiding roster, the problem is peoples unrealistic expectacions. Shadowlands burnout is real and many people already are taking a break, so yeah no wonder recruitment is a pain in the a**. If you haven't cleared the raid at this point, your raid grp certainly won't attract many decent players who still take the game seriously...thats just the truth.

So yeah...threads title is "20 man mythic recruitment killing my guild...what about you" and tbh even at higher worldranks you gotta have good recruitment, because people are leaving left and right. The problem isn't the raid size, the problem is that wow is not keeping people interested long enough anymore.

[reckleon]

Been Raiding since TBC didnt play classic. This Happends more then back then. Ignorance and Ego are killing guilds not recruitment. So manny players want to start their own guild and team even tho they have no certain skill maintaining a guild and keeping a group together. Raidleaders calling things out wrong or calling players out wrong etc. These are the things making people leave and if ur one of the players leaving a guild cause of envoirment u prolly will try to get to a better guild and hope for the best the envoirment is better. I was in a guild got to 8/10 M with them even tho i didnt enjoy raiding with the guild cause of the officer team. Yet i stayed wanting to get CE cause they seem competent enough for it. Sadly envoirment got worse some players left and i had an argument with 1 officer that being said they had a team of 7 leaderships of all being IRL. Now i took my time finding a new guild that fits me and i fit them and im enjoying raiding again.

Me myself was raidleading myself for about 3 years in 1 guild back in wotlk and cata. we had a pretty high aim and good community going. But we had people in charge who had skill to maintain a group cause they always did irl. So ye if ur guild is dieing look at urself first before blaming on expansion or raidsize or w/e.

[Vasilisa]

My guild started dying when 20 man raids (mythic) were introduced. It was a constant struggle to keep decent enough roster. In the end we didn't have time for playing outside raids because of micromanagement. Guild leader and one of the officers quit completely while those who remained tried to carry on. Yet we didn't succeed (we even had another guild to merge into ours) in the long run. Currently my former guild is dead and since BFA I've been in 4 guilds, 3 of which are also dead because or roster problems. Currently I'm playing as social, doing M+ for gear, it's much better for my mental health. I wish they'd allow 10 man mythic raiding but I'm not holding my breath in anticipation.

[ClassicPeon]

WoWProgress - try using that. Council of blood on mythic was cleared by 6 times less guilds than HC sire has. Anything above Hungering has at least 5 more kills on HC compared to mythic. So yeah, it's not that much less people are raiding mythic - 12k guilds actually stepped into mythic - 40% of guilds who did HC, it's just that MUCH less people are clearing it, so anything above hungering destroyer would have to have scaling difficulty tuning for bosses which will be cleared by so few people. Sire Denathrius has 30 times more guild kills on HC than it does for mythic, but they would have to make scaling tuning for Mythic anyway? It's good thing that they actually tune it for fixed group size.

How are you going to argue 5000 guilds are nothing when less then 800 guilds has cleared sire?

And thats just 5000 potential guilds thats whithout everyone(like me and op) who are having difficulties progressing because of roster issues but already cleared some of it.

Also. Just fyi since you are living in the past. Noone uses wowprogress - people use warcraftlogs. Wowprogress has issues keeping up and only records people who raided within the last 30 days