20 man mythic recruitment killing my guild...what about you?

[DanskenVI]

Just merge with another guild. There are plenty of guilds in the same situation, all afraid of merging because they don't want to give up the officer or gm title.

[Blackmist]

We're four months into the tier. This is not the time to recruit for Mythic. The players from below you aren't good enough. The players from guilds above you that have already stopped don't really want to wipe again on shit they already had on farm.

Start up again when the new tier comes out. That's when people want to raid. Now is the time to take a break.

[Tzunami]

It’s the end of the tier...
Of course it will be a struggle especially if you haven’t fully cleared or are working on the last few mythic fights.

[Relapses]

What data suggest that mythic participation is up?

And once again, name an encounter in castle nathria that would have to be redesigned?

I linked some demographics from wowprogress a few pages ago. The number of guilds clearing Mythic is down but the number of guilds who've killed at least one boss is up. And as I've said, I think this has more to do with CN being a more difficult raid than it does actual participation metrics.

In terms of what needs to be redesigned in CN: Pretty much everything would have to be reworked from the ground up. Blizzard very clearly tunes Mythic encounters around the idea that 20 people is the baseline. All DPS checks, all mechanic checks, all mechanic...mechanics... are designed around the idea that 20 people will be in the raid to handle them. You cannot make blanket statements like "just reduce the number of soaks" or whatever because the encounters are incredibly complex and changing one facet of the encounter can have massive ramifications for how everything else works. It's a balancing act that only works at 20 people, you start flexing that and the whole things shifts into disarray. Keep in mind I'm not saying that I don't think Blizzard can't design flexible content... they did it for two expansions with Cata and MoP; just that I personally feel a lot of encounters suffered from the design hamstring of needing to make mechanics able to be handled by both small and large raid groups. I don't think Blizzard enjoyed this limitation and from a purely subjective standpoint I doubt many players would enjoy this either.

[kaminaris]

Are you literally reading my post and acting like i said the exact opposite of what i said? Because thats what your post here is saying.

I am saying:
Go ahead and make the encounter with having a warlock with portal in mind. Thats fine. If we cant work around that and it stops our mythic progression thats fine.

Its MUCH better then being stuck on a fight because you dont have 20 ppl in the raid.

I'm literally advocading not changing the mechanics based on us wanting a smaller raid size. Like do you get it now or?

Hc stops being a challenge very fast for us so i dont really know why you would think "thats what you have heroic for" means.

Exactly my thoughts. Its far better to have a raid that is more difficult because of setup than to not have it all and wait till people disperse to other guilds.

[loras]

I don't know what the solution could be, but recruiting 20+ people for core and bench is starting to look like an impossible task at this very moment. I would even speculate it's easier to recruit 40 people in classic than it is to recruit 20 people for mythic in retail at the moment, and that's quite ridiculous.

My solution proposal would be obvious, reduce the number of people required for mythic content. 15? 10? again, this is the only thing I can really think of, as making mythic content scale-like LFR, normal, and heroic does would just be a balancing nightmare.

We are on a "full" pop server, US Thrall with plenty of people. The problem is related to not enough talent being out there to fill the roles. Is the content too difficult for the average player? is Raider.IO part of the problem? again, I don't know what the solution could possibly be, but there's definitely something going on with recruitment that is making it really hard to make a consistent roster.

I'll tell you what i tell other short term minded groups: If you depend on talent you're not contributing. At all.

Now admittedly i usually have this chat with companies so there is a more genuine need to contribute, but the same principle nonetheless applies: If you want something, go and get it.

Talent is like ripe fruit in the wilderness, easy and nutritious, and likely sibject to heavy competition for that very reason.

However you are, presumably, intelligent and thus know you can grow your own as well.
As such i suggest that you look into growing your own "talent" if what you are offered is not up to your standards.

Effective teaching is something that seems ever rarer these days, and oddly enough "leaders" seem ever more opportunistic.

[zortport]

I personally wouldn't want to transfer to Thrall since I can find a guild with similar ranking on illidan. I recently put a listing on wowp and got like 20 requests, some from thrall, some from even lower servers; even though guilds were fine, I rather not transfer to a dead server. Because if I dont like the guild for some reason, chances are I'm gonna have to transfer out again. And I like having all my alts in one place.

Every mythic raiding guild should be on Illidan or A52, or remove ridiculous transfer costs, or enable x-realm from start

[Nospmas]

This for sure hasn't been a problem for my guild (8/10 500ish US, so middle tier). Sure there is a few specs that are super hard to recruit like a good warlock, but our guild leader/recruiter when he tries can pick up 3-4 people a week almost at will. Maybe it's that we only raid 2 nights a week instead of the usual 3+ of most guilds. We've let some pretty good people go from the roster too just because they had a personality that semi-clashed with some raiders. If anything we've had trouble keeping our roster at a managable level. We've had almost 30 people on the roster at a few points. (at 24 now I think, which is a good number I think)

[MrKnowItAll]

Back in the day when blizzard cut the 10-man "mythic" they werent thinking about the players and community. They were just thinking about themselves and how to reduce their own workload. Well, its funny that it has pretty much been constant downhill ever since the last expansion where they had 10-man raiding, MoP. So makes you wonder how they reallocated their resources.

[Relapses]

Back in the day when blizzard cut the 10-man "mythic" they werent thinking about the players and community. They were just thinking about themselves and how to reduce their own workload. Well, its funny that it has pretty much been constant downhill ever since the last expansion where they had 10-man raiding, MoP. So makes you wonder how they reallocated their resources.

"Man I sure miss 25M/10M debates." -literally not a single person in the entire fucking universe

[Samuraijake]

oh so THATS whats been killing mythic raiding...

[MrKnowItAll]

"Man I sure miss 25M/10M debates." -literally not a single person in the entire fucking universe

I raided 10-man and didnt participate in those pointless debates at all. I wonder how thats possible.

[MidnyteTV]

Mythic is just fine as it is, some guilds are just not made to go far in mythic raiding as there is always a point where the players are just not skilled enough to clear the content while its current. Mythic raiding is too difficult for average players as its not desinged to be done by them, flex mythic would just not work as some fights would be easier and some would be harder so you would still need a certain amount of players so you could do the content as easy as possible.

Pretty much this. Mythic isn't made for everyone. The OP's guild clearly couldn't cut it and should focus on just being an AOTC guild until they can build themselves up.

[kenn9530]

Mythic really isn't fine, we've been seeing an ever decreasing population for mythic raiding since Legion and that's primarily because the reward structure is garbage. When the vast majority of your BiS gear is from doing M+, why waste your time doing raids? Blizzard keeps going down the wrong direction time and time again, last expansion was forced personal loot, this expansion was significantly reduced drops(and it's still less even after they buffed it). There's a reason people, even high end, enjoy olden days of raiding, not really in Vanilla and a small extent in BC, but it's because the raids weren't overly complicated and the rewards actually felt rewarding. Some of the hardest encounters ever came out in Wrath and they weren't hard because Blizzard just increased the damage the boss does just because their test team was able to kill the boss. Now the only thing "hard" about most encounters is the overlapping mechanics because they throw an obnoxious amount of them together to elude at difficulty. My case rests with the reality that they do this illusion of difficulty with overlapping mechanics and then punish you when you're DPS is too high and push phases faster, this has happened SEVERAL times since Legion and it's already a thing with multiple mythic encounters in the current tier.

Raids are not about gear they are about clearing the content simple as that, anything less that 20 players is not really a raid as 20 slot also give most classes the chance at actually having a raid slot, anything less and some classes are going to be made irrelevant completely.

WoW is an old game, they have to try different boss mechanics just to keep things interesting so boss fights should get harder over the years, the whole point in mythic raids is to kill challenging boss fights.

You speak like mythic takes additional skills or something lol.
It is about wanting to do it. You still press the same buttons, but you need to know tactics very well and be very aware of mechanics. So, in short, you need to be willing to put the effort into it. Skills are the same really.
In fact, a lot of mythic raiders right now are casual players: log in for the raid, farm couple of things and see you next week.

Mythic is designed for all players, it is the players who decide if they want to do it or not.

Mythic raiding does require additional skills that many of the WoW playerbase just dont have, many WoW players are even unable to play the class they have been playing for a decade properly so learning all the tactics required also is impossible for many.

Casual is just in terms of time and not in terms of skill, the best WoW players can clear content in a quick timeframe and can then do other things with thier time, other guilds spend months trying to get past one raid boss.

The raid and the bosses is the thing that’s ”A means to an end” so you pretty much have it backwards.

Played the game since 2006 and that has always been my mentality

Nope you have it backwards, if your mentality is just about gear then your just going to be dissapointed as once your BiS then you have completed your goal, the true raider goal is getting cutting edge and if the boss has a mount to farm that until the whole raid has it.

[Relapses]

I raided 10-man and didnt participate in those pointless debates at all. I wonder how thats possible.

So because you didn't engage in it, that means it didn't happen! Wow! This changes everything!

[Infernoxas]

I don't know what the solution could be, but recruiting 20+ people for core and bench is starting to look like an impossible task at this very moment. I would even speculate it's easier to recruit 40 people in classic than it is to recruit 20 people for mythic in retail at the moment, and that's quite ridiculous.

My solution proposal would be obvious, reduce the number of people required for mythic content. 15? 10? again, this is the only thing I can really think of, as making mythic content scale-like LFR, normal, and heroic does would just be a balancing nightmare.

We are on a "full" pop server, US Thrall with plenty of people. The problem is related to not enough talent being out there to fill the roles. Is the content too difficult for the average player? is Raider.IO part of the problem? again, I don't know what the solution could possibly be, but there's definitely something going on with recruitment that is making it really hard to make a consistent roster.

Generally mythic progression lives and dies with how good the leadership is. In this case though, I would say it's not your fault. Shadowlands is burning a lot of people out and they're losing the drive to keep going. It's going to become increasingly harder to recruit and retain players with each passing week.

I would recommend to plan for heavy recruitment a week or so before patch 9.1 hits. That's when a lot of people, myself included, are planning to return.

Best of luck.

[Glorious Leader]

Never join a new formed guild, no matter how "successful" they are right now

This is really quite dumb advice. If people don't join new guilds then those new guilds will eventually fall apart due to attrition. No new guilds m only leads to consolidating players into existing ones which not only gives them much more power but also runs into the risk that those guilds may fall apart and because we have no new guilds organized content is much harder to run. YOU NEED NEE GUILDS

[Kallisto]

Okay, so this guy, almost a decade ago, sees that Blizzard is moving the hardest difficulty raid to a single larger raid size and decides that instead of recruiting new players he'll spend the next 8 fucking years complaining that his voice isn't heard...and that's somehow Blizzard's fault? Get real dude.

I remember at the start of WoD when the Mythic difficulty first came in. People were acting like this was a suddenly new announcement where no one had the chance to recruit for 20 people. When in reality the announcement that mythic was going to be 20 only happened over a year before Mythic came into existence. Guilds had an entire year to adapt and instead of going "Well we wasted that time." it was "Blizz should have warned us, we had no idea it was going to happen..."

Like did they miss the WoD announcement and everything that came up afterwards from the blizzcon that was over a year before WoD was released?

[Arainie]

There would be absolutely no difference if the Mythic raid size was reduced to 10 or 15, it would just delay the issue until a later patch when guilds have adjusted to the new standard size. On the contrary, reducing the raid size would significantly limit encounter design and most likely put further emphasis on FOTM stacking, no matter how you feel about it.

Personally I don't even think 20 spots is enough when we have 36 specs in the game. It's hard to motivate bringing two (or sometimes even one) warriors, demon hunters, rogues, feral druids (list goes on, mostly melee) as it is already. For full disclosure I've been leading a Mythic (and before that Heroic) guild for the vast majority of the past 12 years.

[vsb]

Wouldn't work because then suddenly its, we only had 15 people, it should be 13-16 instead and down the rabbit hole you go.

You're ignoring a problem of bench.

When you're casual guild, it's hard to find people who is both competent and willing to be benched. What happens is: either that person is not competent and is not actually useful to have, benched or not; or that person is good and he'll start to search for another guild as soon as he's benched because the raid allows for only 20 people.

And without enough good benched players you can't raid reliably. It's as simple as that.

Flexible mode solves that, because it allows you to have 22-23 raiders. Two can miss the raid, so you have 20-21 raiders. Three can leave the guild, but you still have 17-18 players and that's enough to continue raiding while you're looking for a new recruits.

I don't even want to notice that being benched is the worst gameplay in the world. You can't even go offline and have sex with your wife as you could be needed any moment.

If you're losing people and not doing anything about that, that's game over, for sure. But even when you're actually trying to do anything about that, game mechanics complicated that a lot.