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  1. #461
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    Quote Originally Posted by Templar 331 View Post
    You don't get to "perfection" in 3 months. There are some more gifted than others, but it doesn't happen in that short of a time frame. It took me 4 years of MIG welding at my first welding job before I learned how to weld with stick and even then I was close to giving up several times. That is why someone who is certified should be paid more than someone who is not. And any job that requires certification is a job best suited for a union to ensure the workers are paid what they are worth.

    Another point to think about, how much longer do you think the person who's welded for 3 months will take doing the same job as a welder who's done it for 3 years? Can they do it is as well as the senior guy? From experience, no. My company has hired people off the street without certification to fill positions before. The company itself "certifies" these welders in house but those certs can't be taken to other companies. Few of them last long.

    And with a lacking of certified welders available for hire shouldn't we be getting a pay raise? Aren't my services more valuable now? No. The company just tells us to increase production. I shit you not the last time we were told what our efficiency had to be it was 160%! They would reduce the amount of time allocated to all of the jobs we had to do by another 30%(it was 130% before). Now we couldn't be fired for production thanks to the union, but that didn't stop the company's bullshit.
    The times were just arbitrary for the sake of argument.

    Obviously the company has been able to attract enough welders to meet its minimal demands, or they would be working to attract more.

  2. #462
    Elemental Lord Templar 331's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    The times were just arbitrary for the sake of argument.

    Obviously the company has been able to attract enough welders to meet its minimal demands, or they would be working to attract more.
    No, they just send the work to shops outside of the network. And these shops cost more for the work than keeping it inhouse would. It cuts into total profit so the company tries not to do it.

  3. #463
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    I consider OPEC to practice extortion at times, but in general no I do not consider the price of gas to be extortion. If I don't like the price of gas I just don't use as much.
    So by your argument, if someone's not happy with their pay, they could just starve a little or quit the job and be homeless. That's your logic? If I take the term extortion to it's perverse extreme, I am extorting you when I say "Hello" to you, because that puts you under a social obligation to greet me back. How about with dispense with the childish semantics that are the only thing holding up your argument and instead you talk about the issue: The gross imbalance of power between the corporation and the individual worker.
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  4. #464
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    So by your argument, if someone's not happy with their pay, they could just starve a little or quit the job and be homeless. That's your logic? If I take the term extortion to it's perverse extreme, I am extorting you when I say "Hello" to you, because that puts you under a social obligation to greet me back. How about with dispense with the childish semantics that are the only thing holding up your argument and instead you talk about the issue: The gross imbalance of power between the corporation and the individual worker.
    If I don't like my job, I find a better one. I am under no obligation to respond to a random person saying "hello" to me. The imbalance of power is directly related to the "importance" of the individual to the corporation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Templar 331 View Post
    No, they just send the work to shops outside of the network. And these shops cost more for the work than keeping it inhouse would. It cuts into total profit so the company tries not to do it.
    The cost of sending it out would be less than the cost of maintaining a workforce of sufficient capacity to not require outsourcing.

  5. #465
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    If I don't like my job, I find a better one. I am under no obligation to respond to a random person saying "hello" to me. The imbalance of power is directly related to the "importance" of the individual to the corporation.
    That's a very one-sided and unfair view belonging to the middle ages and the concept of serfdom rather than a modern society. I've had this discussion on this board more than once, and it appalls me how casually people like you dismiss the needs of the weak and basically just accept that some people just need to suffer so you can live a comfortable life. I guess there is no more discussion to be had here, and all that remains for me to say is I am glad I live in Europe and not the US.

    Oh, and please.. never, ever ask why people are unhappy in the US and feel the need to stir shit up by voting clowns like Trump into office. You should know the answer to that.
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  6. #466
    Elemental Lord Templar 331's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    The cost of sending it out would be less than the cost of maintaining a workforce of sufficient capacity to not require outsourcing.
    No, it isn't. If it were true then our company wouldn't even have a workforce to begin with. It may be true with manufacturing jobs but we are a tank car repair facility. Not only would the company be paying for the labor, they'd also be paying overhead charges for the outsourced work we sent them. Charges the other companies have to pay in order to maintain their workforce.

  7. #467
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    That's a very one-sided and unfair view belonging to the middle ages and the concept of serfdom rather than a modern society. I've had this discussion on this board more than once, and it appalls me how casually people like you dismiss the needs of the weak and basically just accept that some people just need to suffer so you can live a comfortable life. I guess there is no more discussion to be had here, and all that remains for me to say is I am glad I live in Europe and not the US.

    Oh, and please.. never, ever ask why people are unhappy in the US and feel the need to stir shit up by voting clowns like Trump into office. You should know the answer to that.
    Life is not fair. Never has been never will be. I am not Dippy Dawg, I do not think the world owes me a living. That does not mean I am against the idea of providing people with a minimal amount of shelter and sustenance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Templar 331 View Post
    No, it isn't. If it were true then our company wouldn't even have a workforce to begin with. It may be true with manufacturing jobs but we are a tank car repair facility. Not only would the company be paying for the labor, they'd also be paying overhead charges for the outsourced work we sent them. Charges the other companies have to pay in order to maintain their workforce.
    There is a point where the variable amount of work makes it more economic to have a smaller fixed workforce augmented by outsourcing than having a full time workforce sufficient to handle the maximum. Tank cars are not a steady need, especially ones intended to transport fracked petroleum products.

  8. #468
    Elemental Lord Templar 331's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    There is a point where the variable amount of work makes it more economic to have a smaller fixed workforce augmented by outsourcing than having a full time workforce sufficient to handle the maximum.
    Or hire enough people to cover your needs and if those needs drop lay off. And the word from the top of the company is we have plenty of need.

    Tank cars are not a steady need, especially ones intended to transport fracked petroleum products.
    Their repair is a steady need. They have due dates for certifications that must be met in order to roll on any track. Even if they go into storage when they come out they must be inspected and all parts must be within their service period. Everything from welds on the tank to gaskets for the valves have a due date.

    And our company is one of the largest. Petro cars are only a fraction of what we transport.

    Since we're getting off subject discussing my profession I'll end it by getting back on track. Jobs as important as the one I had deserve to be paid a fair share. We ensure materials are safely transported across this nation and others. We have to go through good lengths to ensure we are good enough to do this job. The only way we can ensure we are paid that fair share is with a union. It was because of that union that I wasn't fired for refusing to put myself in danger like my supervisor wanted me to just to get a car done faster. It is because of that union I am able to fight to get my job back because the managers made up crap to get me out the door.

  9. #469
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    Life is not fair. Never has been never will be. I am not Dippy Dawg, I do not think the world owes me a living. That does not mean I am against the idea of providing people with a minimal amount of shelter and sustenance.
    Why? To ease your conscience is that part of your fake charity culture? So people can worship you as their saviour? :P

    Minimal amount of shelter and sustainance... that's what was good enough for serfs and slaves. I'm glad you're that one necessary step above treating humans like animals. You do not seem to support societal advances that came in after the middle ages, though... might want to work on that, we're in the 21st century now.
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  10. #470
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    Quote Originally Posted by Templar 331 View Post
    Or hire enough people to cover your needs and if those needs drop lay off. And the word from the top of the company is we have plenty of need.



    Their repair is a steady need. They have due dates for certifications that must be met in order to roll on any track. Even if they go into storage when they come out they must be inspected and all parts must be within their service period. Everything from welds on the tank to gaskets for the valves have a due date.

    And our company is one of the largest. Petro cars are only a fraction of what we transport.

    Since we're getting off subject discussing my profession I'll end it by getting back on track. Jobs as important as the one I had deserve to be paid a fair share. We ensure materials are safely transported across this nation and others. We have to go through good lengths to ensure we are good enough to do this job. The only way we can ensure we are paid that fair share is with a union. It was because of that union that I wasn't fired for refusing to put myself in danger like my supervisor wanted me to just to get a car done faster. It is because of that union I am able to fight to get my job back because the managers made up crap to get me out the door.
    Layoff can be costly.

    Yes, I know tank cars require constant inspection, and that oil tank cars are just a portion of the fleet. I also know their inspection/repair locations are generally in the regions they are used in, which is why you see fewer petro tanks than, say, UTLX's facility in Anacortes, WA.

    No offense, but it seems your union failed to protect you from bring falsely fired. That is disappointing as that is one of the things unions are supposed to do in theory that I have little disagreement with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Why? To ease your conscience is that part of your fake charity culture? So people can worship you as their saviour? :P

    Minimal amount of shelter and sustainance... that's what was good enough for serfs and slaves. I'm glad you're that one necessary step above treating humans like animals. You do not seem to support societal advances that came in after the middle ages, though... might want to work on that, we're in the 21st century now.
    That would depend on one's definition of minimal.

  11. #471
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    Life is not fair. Never has been never will be. I am not Dippy Dawg, I do not think the world owes me a living.
    Unless your living through unearned income or economic rent thats sacrosanct. Labor though, well how dare you expect anything.
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    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  12. #472
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Unless your living through unearned income or economic rent thats sacrosanct. Labor though, well how dare you expect anything.
    I expect my labor will be paid for at market rates...

  13. #473
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    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post

    YES. Union are supposed to be looking out for ALL workers not just the majority. They absolutely could bargain for more awages, but refused to because the majority made it so they could refuse to.
    So if 1 person out of a 1,000 Union feels that only vegan employees should receive a pay raise, should the Union push for that at the next bargaining meeting?

    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    It is absolutely hilarious that you scream about corporations paying slave wages and then puff up unions to get them better wages then turn right around and say it is OK for Unions to screw workers over on wages. What a massive hypocrite you are. I guess as long as you get what you want screw everyone else huh?
    It is clear in your story that the majority of union members didn't view pay as an important issue. Sounds to me like your "family members" were butt hurt that they didn't get what they wanted and instead of trying to convince their fellow members that a pay increase was important, they blamed the Union as a whole for not catering to their individual demands.
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  14. #474
    Quote Originally Posted by Karreck View Post
    So if 1 person out of a 1,000 Union feels that only vegan employees should receive a pay raise, should the Union push for that at the next bargaining meeting?



    It is clear in your story that the majority of union members didn't view pay as an important issue. Sounds to me like your "family members" were butt hurt that they didn't get what they wanted and instead of trying to convince their fellow members that a pay increase was important, they blamed the Union as a whole for not catering to their individual demands.
    The thrust of his argument is if the union isn't perfect and doesn't give every member exactly what they want it's a bad union.

    It's a nonsense argument that belies his opposition to the very notion of unions, alongside repeat evidence that he has no understanding of the history of unions or how any of them actually function. Which is like, pretty common amongst the anti-union crowd.

  15. #475
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    I expect my labor will be paid for at market rates...
    Since outsourcing is typically done in favor of Chinese labor those rates should apply.

  16. #476
    Bloodsail Admiral Karreck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    The thrust of his argument is if the union isn't perfect and doesn't give every member exactly what they want it's a bad union.

    It's a nonsense argument that belies his opposition to the very notion of unions, alongside repeat evidence that he has no understanding of the history of unions or how any of them actually function. Which is like, pretty common amongst the anti-union crowd.
    My Dad felt this way too, despite getting the benefits of a "Not a Union, but really is one" (U.S. Military) and reaping the benefits of an actual Union (Teacher's Union). I remember when the Teacher's Union was threatening a walk out because the State refused to raise pay, my Dad railed against the walk out, saying it wouldn't work and he wouldn't take part. Well, the State backed down and raised pay without a walk out, and my Dad got that pay raise too. But he still complained that Unions were terrible and never did anything meaningful.
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  17. #477
    Quote Originally Posted by Karreck View Post
    My Dad felt this way too, despite getting the benefits of a "Not a Union, but really is one" (U.S. Military) and reaping the benefits of an actual Union (Teacher's Union). I remember when the Teacher's Union was threatening a walk out because the State refused to raise pay, my Dad railed against the walk out, saying it wouldn't work and he wouldn't take part. Well, the State backed down and raised pay without a walk out, and my Dad got that pay raise too. But he still complained that Unions were terrible and never did anything meaningful.
    Oh, I used to have these arguments with my grandfather all the time...who spent much of his life in a government union and who had one son (my father) who was pretty much a lifelong union member after getting into his "career". Membership which provide health care that literally kept my family from going bankrupt many, many, many times over even as they struggled financially at times (and had to have his parents loan them money).

    The arguments largely played out with him repeating Fox talking points (he loved Fox) and us going back and forth only for me to remind him of the benefits he enjoyed because of his union membership and his grudging (and repeated) admission that "Alright, but there are still bad unions." which was about as close to convincing him as one could get.

    It's weird how you can directly benefit from something and see how it helps people, yet still buy the bullshit counter-arguments hook, line, and sinker, even when the bloody hook ain't even baited.

  18. #478
    On unionisation being called artificial; all market forces could fall under that definition. Market forces are driven by demands, and if workers demand more pay the market has to respond to that just like any other market force.
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  19. #479
    Quote Originally Posted by Karreck View Post
    So if 1 person out of a 1,000 Union feels that only vegan employees should receive a pay raise, should the Union push for that at the next bargaining meeting?
    LOL using an extreme to the defend the union screwing it's members out of wages. Here is a better one that is far more realistic unlike the BS one you put out. if 499 out of a 1,000 want pay raises but 501 don't care, should the union ignore the 499 at the next bargaining meeting?



    It is clear in your story that the majority of union members didn't view pay as an important issue. Sounds to me like your "family members" were butt hurt that they didn't get what they wanted and instead of trying to convince their fellow members that a pay increase was important, they blamed the Union as a whole for not catering to their individual demands.
    There were far more than my family members who were upset. It is beyond amazing how far you will go to kiss the unions ass and condone them keeping their members working for slave wages, yet you scream at corporations and accused them of doing it. Your level of hypocrisy is staggering

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    The thrust of his argument is if the union isn't perfect and doesn't give every member exactly what they want it's a bad union.

    It's a nonsense argument that belies his opposition to the very notion of unions, alongside repeat evidence that he has no understanding of the history of unions or how any of them actually function. Which is like, pretty common amongst the anti-union crowd.
    SO you are completely OK with slave wages as long as its the unions forcing it. Got it, The hypocrisy levels here are astounding.

  20. #480
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    SO you are completely OK with slave wages as long as its the unions forcing it. Got it, The hypocrisy levels here are astounding.
    One day you'll respond to what I write and not whatever fanfiction you keep up in your head. One day.

    Because I've never said that, either.

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